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04-09-2014, 04:59 PM
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Can't stage or predict Shield TRIGGER!?! Is APEX the answer?
Okay, so I'm back to a Shield 9mm after the long pull and reset on the Kahr was bugging me.
However, I can't predict the trigger at all--I start to pull it and it fires WAY TOO SOON--before I know it and am ready/staged. Maybe I was staging it, but then it hit a wall and the wall is just too hard to pull through and it just goes off. Maybe it's because I put about 50rds through the Glock 19 and 150 through the Kahr (as a sort of last-test) BEFORE going to the Shield. I literally would start to pull the trigger and it would fire before I knew it--with no predictable uptake; if I tried to let it reset and stage it a bit, it would usually fire again during the staging. [span style='font-style: italic;'][span style='font-weight: bold;'] IS THIS A COMMON PROBLEM?![/span][/span]
[span style='font-weight: bold;']Will the APEX CARRY KIT fix this, and if so, do I need the APEX trigger too? [/span]It doesn't have to be EXACTLY like my glock trigger, but I need to be able to stage it and know when it's about to break--also lightening it up to 4.5-5.5lbs would be ideal.
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NOTE: When I tried VERY hard and went super slow while bracing the gun on the platform, I'd shoot a 2.5" group of 7-8rds about 4" high--directly at 12 o'clock. I have Defoor Ameriglos coming in that will probably shoot POA/POI.
It was 100% reliable with 3 or 4 FMJs and at least 3 JHP (American Eagle--my main FMJ, Tula Brass, Blazer, Winchester Ranger 124gr JHP, Federal HST 124gr, and Federal 147gr hydrashok).
Last edited by Whatgorilla; 04-09-2014 at 05:24 PM.
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04-09-2014, 05:37 PM
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Well, it sounds like it's working perfectly.
A pistol trigger should never be staged. Smooth, continuous press until it fires. The break should be a surprise. Don't start pressing the trigger until you're on target. Then, keep your focus on the front sight, the front sight aligned with the rear and all of it on the target, then press.
A short, crisp break is desirable.
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04-09-2014, 05:55 PM
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Yeah, I know that a "surprise" is good, I guess I just don't get much of a smooth, continuous pull with it and a set, then a break....I pull, it hit's a wall, and then it's hard to pull, but when I do pull on it, it snaps off a shot too fast.
I have a feeling I'm not explaining it well.
With my glock and other guns, I pull through the dead space/easy pull, then it hits a wall, and I can feel where it's going to break, then it snaps nicely (sometimes like a carrot, sometimes like an icicle). With this one, one second I'm at the wall, and the next it goes off with no control over when it'll go off.
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04-09-2014, 06:04 PM
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Apex is a good trigger. Just be sure you get the carry version. The comp is way too light for SD. The carry version is plenty light. It's almost no uptake, then a sudden glass rod snap.
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04-09-2014, 06:07 PM
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Hmmm, I think I'm understanding what you're saying, but without actually holding the pistol, I'm not sure I can comment on how to get past this issue.
I don't have a Shield, but the firing system is the same as the other M&Ps. There is too much slack, then you hit the heavy sear. At that point just build pressure until it goes off. Based on your explanation, I think you have almost no creep and that's usually considered good. But, because I don't have the pistol in my hand, I may not be grasping the whole of what you're saying.
Hopefully, someone else will come along and clear it up a little.
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04-09-2014, 06:29 PM
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I'd say not to put pressure on the trigger until your sights are aligned on target. It's sounding like you've got a case of the platform changeitis. Too many platforms in too little time. It happens a lot for me coming off of the revolver into a short and light triggered polymer gun. Don't get jumpy and just keep the pressure off until the sights are on.
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04-09-2014, 06:39 PM
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Yes, don't allow platform changeitis to become a chronic condition. It tends to be an acute, highly treatable malady.
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04-10-2014, 10:14 AM
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Yep. I figured shooting 1000rds through the G19 in the last 30 days, then putting a few through it, and like 100-200 through the Kahr PROBABLY had something to do with my inability to shoot the Shield offhand.
The fact that it grouped perfectly (albeit ~3.5" high) when supported is proof that it CAN be shot. I'll do dry-fire, once a day, insert an Apex for the heck of it, and see if my condition gets "cured" before the upcoming class.
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04-10-2014, 11:04 AM
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I would love to know why we are all trying to target shoot with a get off me gun. I would start with the Shield first as it's going to give you the best practice with shooting skill.
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04-10-2014, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
150 through the Kahr (as a sort of last-test) BEFORE going to the Shield.
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I have both guns and know EXACTLY what you are talking about. In fact, I was shooting a Shield on the range yesterday.
You DON'T need to modify your Shield. In fact, the Shield embodies the trigger properties that the APEX kits were developed to produce in the original M&Ps.
The Shield is a classic single-stage trigger, and you are trying to stage it as if it were a 2-stage trigger, like on my Kahr P9, where I can feel the roller.
I actually like 2-stage triggers and shoot a lot of revolver, but I have to shoot a single-stage trigger by positioning my finger, and then NOT pressing until the sights are aligned on target. You need to practice doing the same, if you expect to shoot all types of pistols.
If you think the shield is quick on the trigger, try the crisp, no-takeup 2 1/2# trigger on an STI open gun!!!
P.S. I was shooting the Shield to check a complaint that it "shot high." I was shooting steel plates at 20yds, and it shot OK for me. The finger position is critical on the shield, and the grip distance is slightly short for me, but some dry fire with various trigger finger positions will sort out where your trigger finger needs to be so the gun does not jump when the trigger releases. My M&P 5" 9 Pro is easier to shoot, from sheer size and weight differences.
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Last edited by OKFC05; 04-10-2014 at 11:40 AM.
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04-10-2014, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximumbob54
I would love to know why we are all trying to target shoot with a get off me gun. I would start with the Shield first as it's going to give you the best practice with shooting skill.
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I see the Shield as more than a "get off me gun"--that's a .380 pocket pistol for me. For anything larger than a 8-12 ounce gun, I like to know I can make a head shot at 25Y and hit a IPSC center size target at 50Y if I have to. It's not that much smaller than my Glock 19, which will do both all day. I just need more practice.
(I do know that 99% of SD shots will be inside of 7 yards. But for that shooter who has opened up on people inside a restaurant 50Y away from where I'm getting in my car in the parking lot, I want to be able to do something besides close the distance to 2-7Y before I can accurately shoot. I know some people would say 'call the police and get to safety'--to each his/her own).
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04-10-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatgorilla
It's not that much smaller than my Glock 19,
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Now you have really lost me.
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04-10-2014, 11:57 AM
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In sight radius....it is lighter and thinner and smaller.
But the sight radius is about an inch different tops. Maybe less.
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04-10-2014, 01:06 PM
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Have you tried not staging the trigger?
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04-10-2014, 01:13 PM
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Sounds more like you should just stick with a Glock.
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04-10-2014, 02:06 PM
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IF I can find an IWB holster that will fit me, then I'd like to try to carry the G19 (but I'm shaped like an upside down triangle--fat up top, but no butt or hips to speak of).
But I have IWBs for the Kahr that seem to work, so the Shield should too. I do have an OWB for the Shield that hides pretty well (though I'm looking for a good IWB for it too...I hear great things about the Silent Thunder Fusion).
--
Having just had some pistol classes, my groups have REALLY improved. I have been doing the first stage in the latter half of my presentation--as I press out with my arms...then I have it break just as my arms are fully extended (not straight) and I'm aligned on target; other times, I think I don't really start any press until I'm on target.
With the SHIELD, I think the above poster is correct that it's more like a SINGLE-STAGE trigger when perhaps I'm just used to double-stage triggers. What's odd is that my dry-firing seems FINE. But at the range, I couldn't call shots worth a ****. I'd shoot and then look for where it hit. I probably just need practice with it to get as good as I am with the G19...I hear it's a perishable skill, so I'll have to practice with both I suppose. I've just gotten VERY greedy lately wanting MORE speed and accuracy--even got a shot-timer (pro-timer II) and plan on starting IDPA, IPSC, SEPSA (?) and other stuff. 3 months ago, I shot 12-16 inch "groups" at 25 yards--now I'm down to 5-6" (and at 7-8 yards, my draw and first shot is down from 1.6-1.75 seconds to about ~1.25 most times--keeping the shot inside a 6" circle).
Last edited by Whatgorilla; 04-10-2014 at 02:09 PM.
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04-10-2014, 02:28 PM
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When I am trying to get serious about a sanctioned match, I practice only with the type I am going to use in the match, and even carry the most similar I have (carry 442 when competing with model 66). I shoot so much revolver that USPSA single stack gives me the most grief, even though I have an excellent S&W Pro 1911 with 4# trigger: I sometimes shoot just a fraction soon.
Suggest you try the IDPA stage 1 classifier drill: at 7 yds, 2 to body and one to head, drawing from holster. Try to get zero down hits, 4 sec is ok, 3 is good. Drill requires acquisition, double tap, transition for 3rd shot. All excellent trigger control practice shooting rapidly..
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04-10-2014, 02:37 PM
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Thanks OKFC05.
What are "zero down hits"? My split times are currently .5ish but the transition would add a bit I think. I'm new to this speed and accuracy thing. Before that I just cared about shoving the gun in their nostril and pulling the trigger until the it locked back. I could hit a torso at 25Y, but now I can hit a head. Soon I want to hit an eyeball...and do it in under 3 seconds.
ETA: found it....zero down is the middle circle area where you get no points added. I'm used to shooting the upper half of the center rectangle vertically aligned in IPSC targets. Never seen IDPA.
Last edited by Whatgorilla; 04-10-2014 at 02:44 PM.
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04-10-2014, 03:11 PM
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I like IDPA targets because the zero down areas (or bullseye area if you wish) are based on human anatomy and you DON'T get caught in the trap of taking all day trying to hit the "eyeball." So balancing accuracy and speed.
Being both an IDPA Match director and a USPSA CRO, I can recommend without (much) fear of being accused of prejudice you take the Glock19 and head for the nearest IDPA club to get some practice with simulated stress. Funny things happen when the buzzer goes off.
USPSA is more pure shooting and equipment race: fun too.
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04-10-2014, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05
Funny things happen when the buzzer goes off.
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That's a nice way of putting it. I often hear it described as an anatomical impossibility.
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