I don't put much faith in law enforcement when it comes to testing firearms. Now before anyone jumps in I'm former sheriff myself. First just because a guy is in some form of law enforcement doesn't make him a gun enthusiast or anywhere close to an expert. Second depending on budget training ammo varies greatly on that same subject you might be surprised to know most cops seldom hit the range unless it's a week before the have to qualify. Third where these guns given to seasoned officers or green as grass recruits?

The interesting part though is, all those things did happen at one time.
The old 39/59 series had its problems too, nothing is perfect but Smith had 40 years to get them right. The M&P series for the most part runs fine...BUT WE BOTH KNOW that the 9mm version for whatever reason has been plagued by gremlins.
I've shot most of the M&P line and in the limited amount of shooting they ran fine.
The way I see it is sooner or later we'll find out what happened down in Texas and North Carolina.
But it occurs to me that some here are a bit thin skinned when it comes to critiquing or criticizing they're favorite model, caliber, carry style, etc.
In simpler language:"Yeah, whatever!"
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

I'm sure the DPS and S&W can sort this out without my 10 microns of help, but I always wonder if a department switches to a new pistol and then buys a bunch of jake leg low bid semi-in spec commercial reloads for the changeover. Cheaper ammo is one of the main reasons for the switch (I don't care what the press releases say, I've seen what ammo prices have done to LE shooting budgets the last few years), cheap is the MAIN reason, so why not stay with the theme? I do not think current production conditions favor high quality ammo.

100% with you on that. Only problems I've every had with my M&P 9 Pro were with reloads and less powerful ammo.

Alll wrong here!!!

Nooo, I don't know that the 9mm M&P was plagued by gremlins!! Don't put words into my posts.. I have been shooting M&P's for over 4years now, shooting thousands of rds with zero issues.. As for thin skinned, not at all... but I won't stand by and ignore unsubstantiated claims!!

Just for fun, went out last night and shot hundreds of rounds through an assortment of M&P's, my 40FS with a S\L 9mm barrel, my 40 Shield and my BG380.... zero issues as is always the case.... just another day at the range... rapid fire, slow fire, double taps.. you name it..... soooo I don't identify when I read something online and there is no FACTS to stand on... What I experienced last night is FACT... I didn't read, hear or imagine it....

Oh ya... in addition.... I also shot an AK and a 9mm Uzi I built along with my new LE901.... I had a fun filled 2hrs of just shooting it up!! ANd my wife.... she came along, so I have a witness!! She had a blast shooting her M&P 15-22 and her M317...

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Jack C

You want a cookie?

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

To my knowledge there really wasn't any major issues and S&W is still shipping guns to DPS.

My guess is that since this was a bunch of cadets, there was a couple malfunction and a broken mag base plate (they shoot on concrete), but no one was tracking which gun it was so they assumed it was all of them. Misinformation at its best.




C4

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S&W M&P Armorer
S&W LE Distr.

Thanks Grant.... the voice, "keyboard" of reason!!

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Jack C

I think that's dead on, & it never ceases to amuse me. I, for whatever it is worth, could care less what anyone thinks about my choice of firearm, automobile, motorcycle, etc. I don't get my self identity or sense of self worth through those things. But boy-oh-boy, there are people all over the internet forums (not just this one) that will not hesitate to "pick up arms" & defend their favorite brand of whatever. Life is too short to worry about such things!

You guys crack me up... come into a thread, make false accusations, then call us fanboys for sticking up for what we know are facts... Or not even sticking up for, but questioning sources of your so called facts that have no basis of truth.. when in fact it is you that have your favorite weapon that can only be deemed better by lowering the quality of others favorite weapon. It is you that comes across as fanboys.... justifying your favorite brand of whatever!!

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Jack C

I am a member of a large (2500 member) Texas agency which carries the M&P 40. We also authorize carry for plain clothes, covert and off-duty of the M &P 40 C and Shield 40. We had carried Glock M22s for the last 20 years. I agree with some of the posts here that there are issues, but they are mostly issues attributable to the end user, i.e., the "trigger puller". We had a few rusted slides when we started issuing the M&P but then due to our proximity to the Gulf Coast, we also had issues with Glocks which rusted shut due to salt water exposure when guys dumped their guns in their boat wells for their vacation weekend, again "end user issue". Clue: they sell gun oil and cleaning kits at Wal-Mart and weapons maintenance is part of the training required for the LE license. DPS was shooting a 147 grain load in the M&P 9 and further, the Texas Tribune article indicated that these were "loaners" from S&W. I have already heard that there may be a political issue here from someone within the organization that wishes to stick with the Sig pistol. That was also suggested in a couple of the comments. As a 20 year LEO I will tell you that even now there are guys on the qualification course that have FTE/Type 1/Type 2 malfunctions with other major name handguns and it usually boils down to a training or maintenance issue and not a problem with the gun itself. The Texas Tribune article further states that DPS has not been able to duplicate the issues reported by the trainees. S&W addressed minor issues with our guns, which is expected when you issue large numbers of guns. People in the know are aware that most officers shoot their service guns only at their annual in-service qualification. Real shooters are the exception. I have 4 M&Ps, including the Walther .22 and Shield and only came across the roll pin "walk" issue in the .22 LR after about 2000 rounds and this was easily corrected. These guns are flat out shooting beasts, but I also maintain the guns which I stake my life on. The two Glocks I have left are my previous issue duty guns which are heirlooms for my kids and have been relegated to safe queen status. When we issued Glocks, we had issues with the slide rails being ripped out of the frame due to the hot Speer 155 gr. 40 S&W loads we shoot. Glock corrected those issues for us because they are a responsive manufacturer as well. As a competitive shooter and LEO who is on the range weekly - my S&Ws get worked out, and they just plain work. If they didn't I'd definitely have a different opinion here. When we went from Glock to S&W we tested guns from several manufacturers over the course of about a year, both Glock and S&W met the grade, with the Springfield XD in the running also. S&W won out because it was just plain easier for the rank and file to shoot better qualification scores with it. Hopefully the issue will be decided on facts and the best handgun be chosen, not someone in the chain throwing a tantrum because they are resistant to change (which is the usual response in the LE field).

^!
Well said, Juan Largo. From my prior experience-follow the ego involved, follow the politics involved...and follow the money.

And exactly where did I or anyone else do that?
It is you and a few others who tend to not want to hear that there may be a problem with your chosen weapon!
If as said above Smith did send "loaners" for T&E, then why did they send enough for an entire recruit class? It was my understanding that DPS was switching entirely too the M&P9 with this class. All the vets could either go to said M&P or keep there current SIG.
In the end no weapon system is perfect, there's lemons in every maker. I own an M&P357 and it's been working very well, and is awaiting a new recoil spring as it's hit 4500 rounds, with no failures. So as you can tell I have an interest into what happened down in Texas, North Carolina, and New Mexico.
Have another cookie, and remember its just a tool.
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

I like cookies, with my milk.... looks like you only got koolaid.. and I don't drink no stinkin koolaid. You've been minimized.... you are invalid ,,, you're just a guy looking for attention... you'll get no more from me.. there is no meat with your potatoes..

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Jack C

The malcontents/bashers got cut off in the 1980-Present revolver section, thank you Lee, and seem to have found fertile ground in the semi-auto sections.

I don't care what you choose to own, but this constant theme in the semi-auto sections is getting old. Yeah, I know, I don't have to read the threads, but they're everywhere. "The Shield sucks, blah blah, the M&P is garbage, blah blah. The 3rd Gen's are the cat's meow and I'll never buy another Smith semi-auto again. The company sucks, blah blah." Really?

Forum member fastbolt nails it every time, much to the chagrin of many. It's great seeing them squirm
Just back from the Indy NRA show


Looks like the company is doing very well without your money.

You can't handle the truth! (Jack Nicholson) - YouTube

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Sure you did

Yeah, right, whatever. You got yours and I got mine.
And don't worry the pain will go away after awhile. Just use the ointment.
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

No pain here whatsoever .... I'm happy with what I got... keep your ointment... cause I don't need none!!

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Jack C

You seem confused. A trip to the bath house will relieve your stress.

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

S&W M&P Pistols are some of the best on the market. As the SR Armorer for a large DOS Agency we issue a large variety of weapons. We have had issues with some at some point. Almost all issues were with the operator. With 9MM pistols some manufactures are making 9MM ball practice ammunition that are down loaded to barely make the pistol function. All European ammunition is loaded hotter than Winchester white box and other practice ammo. They stated that they could not duplicate the malfunctions. I own a S&W M&P 9MM and 40 Full size. They are as good or better than Glock pistols.

I can see you doing this...

You can't handle the truth! (Jack Nicholson) - YouTube

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Sure you did

Could care less but reread the dialogue between badkarma and turbo specifically.....bad 1..... Turbo 0.... Obvious thin skin it is

Thank you for this informed post. Great points.

Amen.

Many I served with didn't bother with the "clean it" part. It would be nice if every officer took firearms proficiency seriously. It would be nice if every police administrator was committed to supplying those officers with the best equipment and training available. It would be nice if politicians told the truth. It would be nice if S&W brought back the Triple Lock. It would be nice if German Shorthair Pointers lived to be 50.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

That is one of my all time favorite movies and scene!! I can't tell u how many times I have watched bits and pieces of that movie.

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Jack C

I'd like some cheap Registered Magnums too

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Sure you did

I don't know about anyone else, but it was a known fact for lotsa years in Texas LE circles that the TxDPS firearms unit command was very much SIG loyal. And I would wager that they also don't want to give up that priciest of handgun rounds; the .357 SIG.
2 strikes against the change over to M&P's; Brand and 9mm.
As someone earlier said, Politics!

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LEO, Instr, Armorer, Gov's 20

As an further note, our M&Ps have been on the street over a year and we have not had any major issues with the guns as far as repairs are concerned. They are holding up extremely well. That Texas Tribune article also mentioned "microns of movement" - well, I'm from South Texas and shoot pretty darned good, but I want to meet the guy that is worried about "microns of movement" and "possibly accuracy problems", because I might be able to learn something from him (chuckle...). I also want to find that device that measures that in his toolbox. Our rangemaster was curious as well.

This comment makes it sound like you don't believe they even have the ability to measure 10 microns (the amount mentioned in the article). Well, in the world of measurement, it's not really that small or hard.

10 microns = .0004"

This device is quite common and is capable of that measurement:


Don't get me wrong, I too think that the measurement they mentioned is a joke and insignificant to the operation of an M&P. However, it's not impossible to make that measurement and the tool, depending on what they measured, isn't uncommon.

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Freedom isn't free.

The information I've been able to get out of DPS is that they're talking about the front sight moving. I have no doubt they have the capability to measure 10 microns of movement, but I question how they arrived at that number. Did they take a measurement on the brand new guns to determine exactly where the sights were positioned before they were shot? If so, why would they do that?

As a new shooter, if I could limit the movement of my front sight to ten microns, I'd be tickled pink.

(Just kidding. Agree 100%).

I would really like to know how they can measure front sight movement to .0004 in. If that is what they are saying, and I have no reason to doubt it, I think it is a smoke screen for the real reason.

FWIW - I have Eight (8) M&P's
2 Full size 9 and 40
2 Shields 9 and 40
2 Compacts 9 and 40
2 45's Full and compact
I have never ever had a malfunction with any of these weapons. My Shield 9 (EDC) has over 2,400 rounds of all kinds of ammo. Reloads, 115,124,127,147 grain JHP's Ball, Blazer, Tula, Brown Bear, Speer, Winchester, Remington Federal. Just about anything you can think I have shot thru my M&P's. One of my Full Size M&P's (the 40) has had a chop job at the grip. I have a gunsmith (Business end Customs Peabody,Mass) chop the grip. It now accepts the 10 round Mag, but i have the luxury of having the longer sight radius and barell, with the compactness of a short grip.
And still this guns runs like a champ
BUT and I stress BUT. My Sigs and Glocks run just as well.
Just my 2 cents

1Sg
Out

The Pareto principle (also known as the 80–20 rule) states that, for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes.

I'll bet that if we were able to survey 100% of the M&P owners, we would find that 80% of them have had no trouble of any kind with their guns. We would find that 18% had problems that they related to ammo or a single magazine. 1.9% had problems that were fixed with either a simple part or by returning to S&W. Then there will be .1% that had problems that couldn't be or weren't fixed.

I'm just grabbing those numbers out of the air, but I'll still bet they're pretty close to reality. Alas, we cannot survey 100% of the M&P owners.

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Freedom isn't free.

I think the M&P keeps getting better -- which doesn't mean it was ever bad. We have improved trigger bars (with the H on them) that provide improved perceived re-set, improved sears that are smoother and take less effort, improved barrels (with a more suitable twist rate) that are more consistently accurate, and larger sear springs that make the re-set function of the sear more reliable.

I read somewhere on the Internet (so it must be true) that the larger sear spring came about because the NC Highway Patrol had a few failure-to-reset-the-sear issues -- which can easily be fixed by pulling the slide back one inch -- but which is a potential problem in a pistol used for LE or self-defense. The result is we all can have M&Ps with a larger, more reliable re-set spring. (I think the change occurred around November 2012, if I remember. Apex Tactical will convert an old model sear spring to the new model for around $25).

Bottom line: if the M&Ps used by Texas DPS have a systemic problem, I would be surprised at this point, but I'm sure S&W will fix and introduce the fix to the manufacturing line.

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S&W Rover

If this is the real issue, then it is not a "problem" in that sense. Simply some front sights or dovetails out of spec. As most of us are aware, the vast majority of S&W pistols (3rd Gen and M&P) have sights fitted so tightly in the dovetail that movement of them is next to impossible.

This is an easy fix, and certainly does not warrant some kind of across-the-board rejection of the M&P pistol platform.

Unless, of course, the people in charge of the new pistol transition are intentionally trying to sabotage it in order to stay with SIG, or to do something else.

...I have one of those! My sarcasm must not have been clear enough. The point is that although you could measure it, it wouldn't be detectable on the target.

Yeah, I completely agree. I think that "10 micron" thing was just an author trying to sound like he knew something when he really didn't.

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Freedom isn't free.

Not to make more of this than we should but here is the quote from the article in which a Officer from the DPS quoted by the reporter mentions the "less than 10 microns" figure...

"The agency decided to halt the use of the new handguns after a couple of the weapons experienced slight movement of less than 10 microns after repeated firing of about 3,000 rounds, Vinger said. A micron is one-millionth of a meter. Movement in a gun could affect accuracy. There were also bullet “feeding and ejection” issues. None of the performance issues resulted in any injuries. And so far, DPS has not been able to replicate these issues in subsequent testing, Vinger said."

DPS Suspends Use of New Handgun Over "Concerns" | The Texas Tribune

Since no one from DPS has said where the "less than 10 microns" movement is occurring speculating on it seems pointless to me. Until till they do, if they do I'll be skeptical that there really is all that much of a problem with the guns that can't be straightened out fairly easily.

tipoc

[SIG] "Gun glitch? San Joaquin Co. officials switch out weapons"

Gun glitch? San Joaquin Co. officials switch out weapons | News - KCRA Home

The link JohnSW provided tells the story of San Juaquin County, Ca. Sheriff's Dept. temporarily replacing 300 Sigs in .40 cal that were less than a year old. The Dept. replaced them after two of the guns would not fire on the range due to a problem reloading caused by a bad pin.

Sig will check the guns over and likely repair or replace the guns. The Dept. took all the guns out of service.

Not only M&Ps have problems at times it seems. Sigs are in general reliable guns. The article doesn't say what model is involved.

tipoc

Yeah, this happens more often than enthusiasts and 'brand aficionados' might care to realize.

I can think of a couple of other brands (meaning not S&W) where major state or county agencies had problems with components in new guns, and the gun companies had to scramble to replace major components in just a couple hundred guns from a production run, or in a couple thousand guns, if they wanted the agencies to stay with their products. These sort of things don't always make the news or find their way into public attention.

Sometimes it doesn't serve the interests of either the agency or the gun company to air out such things in the press. Sometimes it happens, though.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Having witnessed many handgun changeovers in 45 years, I have seen the problems with failures pop up in all manner and brands of guns when the manufacturer pushes production numbers to meet large orders while trying to capture the LE or military market share. I saw it happen with the Model 66 in the 70's and with the Model 669/6906 in the 80's, the Beretta 92 in the 90's, and now with Sigs and M&P's. And there are many others. I recently attended an instructor course with the chief instructor of a large southern department that carries the M&P 45 and they experienced many failures. The good news is that S&W sent people down there and fixed or replaced all the guns with the problem and I see that Sig is doing the same in the California sheriff's office. No firearm manufacturer can afford to have that kind of problem hanging out there. I know from my time working with Texas Rangers a few years ago that they are very fond of their Sigs and I believe the impetus for changing to the M&P was to migrate back to the 9mm due to the cost of ammo and training issues experienced while training new recruits on heavier calibers. This is not a new concept and the FBI seems to be trending that way. Some might argue that the DPS decision was made to change guns and caliber for the wrong reasons which may bring some heat to the argument. Officers can be very emotional, and rightfully so, when the bottom line dictates choice of life-safety things like what kind of pistol they carry or what kind of car they drive. I do not, however, know of an incident in recent memory where an officer lost his or her life due to a pistol failure, but if someone knows of such an occurrence I would like to know about it.

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NRA LE Firearms Instructor/RSO

I have an early M&P 40 made in 2006 that I have put 15,000+ rounds down it. To date I have hade three mechanical failures plus a FTE. The mechanical failures were:
1. Roll pin in front of the trigger guard worked out about .2". It made a great place to index my finger when it was not on the trigger but it started to wear on the holster so it went back to S&W, no recurrence in 10,000 rounds.
2. Broken captive recoil spring, it was still usable but S&W sent a replacement.
3. Mag dropout. Could have been due to the early model (S/N MPAxxxx) or it could have been caused by wear as I do lots of mag changes due to practice and local competitions.

The FTE was caused by me doing a torture test of not cleaning the gun for 1,000 rounds until a failure (took 20 weeks). The actual issue was carbon build up on the ejector. I repeated this test but cleaned the ejector at 800 rounds but quit after 1,600 rounds (over 26 weeks) with no FTE as the purpose was to find the weak link on this gun as a carry gun.

Overall I have trusted my life to this M&P or a matching M&P 40C for the last eight years.

I have seen major failures happening on Glocks (springs and several front sights falling out), Sigs (mag baseplate failure spilling rounds all over the floor), M&Ps (mag dropouts) and multiple make 1911s having different failures.

All makes will have failures and the big boys will take action to identify the sources of those problems and take actions to correct them.

By the way besides M&Ps I also own 1911s, a Glock 19 and a Sig 226 which I will start using in local league matches this week for more practice so I not a M&P or else person.

I am curious that if the reason for changing to 9mm was indeed the impetus (so much more going on though I suspect) then why didn't they just transition to the same pistol in 9mm???...no changing of much anything to carry the same pistol in a different caliber...

I don't believe there was anything mysterious and suspect S&W made the Texas DPS a better deal then SIG wanted to...

Bill

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Fast is Fine Accuracy is Final

Seems I remember the P226 had some cracked slides years ago?

seems like an odd first post...no cracks in the stainless slides...and they have been stainless since the late 1990's...

Bill

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Fast is Fine Accuracy is Final

Yes that was during the early rounds of testing the U.S. military did for a new service pistol in the mid 1980s on the alloy framed guns. Sig corrected the problem. Along with the Beretta 92 the Sig P226 was selected for use. The gun has had no significant problem with cracked frames since then. But this being the internet things live on, and on, and...

tipoc

I think the FBI had some with cracked slides too, when the issued some # of them in the ... late 80s or early 90s.

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NHI, 10-8.

Frames, there were cracked frames in the earlier 226s and 220s. SIG fixed them too.
Silversport : As far as I know the M&P is cheaper and holds more ammo than the SIG P226. And I wouldn't doubt S&W took a page out of Glocks book on how to sell pistols either.
Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

TXDPS should just stay with their trusty Sigs, hell they work very well. To me the choice of 9x19 over .357 Sig seems like a step backwards. The .357 Sig round has a very good street record with agencies that use it. Several federal & state agencies use it & we don't see the FTS horror stories with the .357 vs. the 9x19. Ironically their neighbors, the NMSP have been using .357 M&P's for years.

The switching over requires new holsters & mag pouches. M&P mags are fatter than Sig's. TDPS wears corfam & that is the most expensive duty gear around. That add$ up really quick.