This death is a very tragic story. If you have not heard about it, here are some quotes from the article:

"HAYDEN, Idaho - The Kootenai County Sheriff's Office says a two-year-old boy pulled his mother's gun completely out of a specially designed purse moments before it fired once, killing 29-year-old Veronica Rutledge."

"Sheriff's Deputies say Rutledge was shopping with her two-year-old son." . . . . "Deputies say she was just a few feet away from her shopping cart when her son pulled out her concealed 9 mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield semi-automatic handgun from her purse."

The whole story is here:

Investigators detail moments before 2-year-old accidentally shot - Spokane, North Idaho News & Weather KHQ.com

There's no mention of whether this Shield had a thumb safety, or not. If it did have a thumb safety, we will probably never know if it was originally engaged, or not.

Most of us probably carry regularly, and none of us wants to see something happen like this. Can we have a thoughtful, respectful, discussion about what lessons we can learn from this tragedy?

We make decisions about what we carry, how we carry, and how we prepare. Maybe the contributions to this thread will help us make the best decisions we can.

I can't get past the simple fact that she carried the weapon in such a way that a two year old was able to get hold of it. Of course it's tragic. Still, the kid should never have been able to get hold of it, in any circumstance!

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

Maybe keep the chamber empty.Medina Police Chief & ex-ATF supervisor Patrick Berarducci accidently shoots self in right leg | cleveland.com

lesson one...the most important lesson here...don't carry off body where you don't have control of the firearm.

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SDMF

On the body, semi-auto or revolver. In purse, revolver.

This. She should NOT have left her handbag in the Cart with the kid. If she had kept the bag and weapon within HER control we would not be having this discussion.

Tragic event but IMO it boils down to irresponsibility on the part of the ADULT.

I agree with this^^^^^

Papa


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Every time there is an accidental shooting it's immediately clear the rules have been broken. Tragic every time. Please be careful.

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Armatissimi e liberissimi

My understandin g is that the weapon was in a specially designed handgun holster/purse, and zipped into the bag. Tragic, to be sure, but hardly an unsecured firearm.

A two year old was able to obtain it... hardly secured in my book.

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- The Federalist #46 -

That's sad. If you have a LOADED WEAPON and a two year old CHILD, you have to be on top of things at all time. No excuses.

Same thing happened in Tulsa about a month ago.

Police identify mother accidentally shot by toddler | www.fox23.com

Very tragic accident that should never have happened. The first 8 pages of my S&W M&P shield are all warnings telling us not to do what this unfortunate mother did... Leave a loaded pistol unattended in a manner that a child can have access to it. It is a 24/7 responsibilty.

the purse was in the cart with the child, not under control of the mother.

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SDMF

I believe the lesson to be learned is you can't leave a weapon in reach of a child regardless of how well you think it is secured. Now a mother is dead and the children will struggle with it for the rest of their life. I have become a little lax in my weapon handling this tragedy is a wake up call.

She paid the ultimate price for carelessness. Prayers to her family.

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M&P's and K Frames Pleeze!

I agree with the general thought here that, however secured, a firearm should not be left in reach of a two year old. How many of us would place a firearm "secured" in a brand new Level III holster in the shopping cart next to a toddler? Not many, I suspect, and this was a purse with some Velcro and perhaps a zipper and snap?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

This is THE ONLY lesson here. Someone could have just as easily stolen that purse.

I'm still waiting for my CC permit so I have no experience carrying. However, given that the number of tragic accidental shootings seem to far out number the number of times one actually defeats a mortal threat with pistol, I've already decided to never carry with a round in the chamber. I'm willing to take the chance of dying because I couldn't respond quickly enough, rather than risk a tragic accident that I could regret for the rest of my life (of course that is assuming my death is not the tragedy.) I keep a loaded magazine (secured and locked with the pistol) near by, but it is not going in the pistol in my home unless I am dealing with a threat.

Bottom line is I want a firearm available, on short notice, for home defense or carry - but not instantaneously available at the risk of a tragedy.

Just my 2 cents.

Bless their hearts. What a terrible thing to happen. I'll have a brief talk with my daughter. Things can happen to the bestof us. Years ago a DPS trooper during a qualifying session had an accident with a revolver.

Agree with almost all of what folks are saying here. Safety comes in layers -- awareness of where the weapon is; some sort of restraint or control of it; multiple conscious steps required to put it into operation.

I am a believer in not carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber -- I agree with motorcyclejoe. Others will disagree, but I want that conscious step in there. A thumb safety on a pistol is your friend. When I carry, it is usually a small revolver; I keep it in a pocket holster but am always aware it is there, too. If I carried a pistol in a holster, I would not carry in a minimalistic just-pull-it-out holster, I would want a holster with either a thumb snap (leather) or a release button (polymer).

This accident was very sad but illustrates how cascading effects can occur - round in chamber, gun accessible, owner distracted in a store, two year old grabbing the gun...

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S&W Rover

Turn off MSNBC/CBS/ABC/CNN. Have a glance at this: Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Control Myths

Myth: Accidental gun fatalities are a serious problem
Fact: Firearm misuse causes only a small number of accidental deaths in the U.S.97 For
example, compared to being accidentally killed by a firearm, you are:
• Five times more likely to burn to death
• Five times more likely to drown
• 17 times more likely to be poisoned
• 17 times more likely to fall to your death
• And 68 times more likely to die in an automobile accident

ETA: In 1981 there were ~1400 accidental firearm deaths. In 2009 the number was just shy of ~500. Hardly the increase you are claiming.

Fact: Every day 400,000 lifethreatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.

This has always been my reasoning for using a thumb safety. My EDC has one and I use it. If a situation arises, all I want to have to do is click the safety off. My BUG is a revolver. It would be pointless to carry unloaded, or down a round. The heavy trigger on the latter and thumb safety on the former reduce the risk of a negligent discharge to an acceptable level. But, that's my opinion and experience. Each person has to decide what they're comfortable with.

Regardless of how comfortable I may be, I always try to be vigilant about how I handle my guns. You gotta remember the basic safety rules at all times.


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JR
SD40VE and Shield 9

So do you carry your revolver unloaded? Just curious. If so, how quickly can you load it if an attacker threatens you or you family. Assuming you do carry it loaded, how is that different from a semi-auto with one in the chamber utilizing a thumb safety?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand.


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JR
SD40VE and Shield 9

Thanks for the information. Most of what I've read leads me to believe the statistics on gun deaths/violence are not very reliable. There were 32,351 gun deaths in 2011, according to the CDC. CDC says 592 of those deaths were declared accidental in 2011, and 102 people killed in these accidental gun deaths in 2011 were younger than 18, with half of these children younger than age 13. Even the above is very suspect as reporting and judgements made regarding cause etc. are not uniform. Nevertheless, it would be nice to get the facts based on a complete reporting system using uniform criteria.

It would be very interesting to drill down on the basis for the 400,000 per day figure. Obviously that figure gives you 146,000,000 violent assaults prevented every year. If you have the source of the data for this claim please let us know. When you consider the number of gun owners in the US, seems like they would be getting assaulted quite a bit.

This same topic was started in the Carry and SD forum and moved to the Lounge, where the string is longer. I'm just going to paste my response from there into here. BLUF: Empty chamber carry is never acceptable, and this event was the result of a clear failure to be serious about a serious topic. "Negligent" is far too generous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer17
I dont want to pass any judgment in a time like this but, but nearly every child will pull the trigger on a gun if they can pick it up. I have seen it happen, so do you really need a loaded chamber in Walmart? You can jack the slide in less than a second if you feel there might be danger and I doubt if any young child can manipulate the slide on a Glock.

Concealed carry citizens are not cops, and it actually wouldn't bother me if every concealed carry license required the chamber to be empty. If you feel a threat you can chamber your piece and quickly leave that area.
*
This been shown repeatedly to be a fail on many levels. The pistol needs a round chambered at all times unless out of service such as putting it in the safe or doing maintenance or dry practice. Period. One cannot be assured of circumstances that will allow for chambering a round; might already have an injury by the time of completing the draw, might be using a hand at contact range to hold off an assailant. Anyone who is not prepared to carry a firearm ready to shoot is not ready to carry a firearm. Period.

I don't care what make or model it is - you carry an M10, load all 6 holes in the cylinder; carry a 1911 or BHP, chamber one, apply the thumb safety, add a round to the mag - anything other than cocked and locked is unsat, regardless of the ghastly training from Uncle Sam that has been inflicted on so many; the Glock gets a round chambered, too. (With a Glock, and some other pistols, a holster that properly covers the trigger area is not an option.)

I have to be careful about critiquing purse carry lest one of our female members comes uncorked on me. However, for most purposes, off body carry like that is not merely a fail; it is clownshoes, negligent, disgraceful, and worse. I'll admit, I do not care what the fashion police say - I dress around the gun. Being armed AND READY TO FIGHT is not optional - being stylish is. Any other viewpoint is indicative of really skewed priorities in dire need of un(screw)ing. IF she was going to use a purse for carry, she need to have it on her, with a rigid adherence to priorities.

The purse HAD to have been in the cart and not in her control for this to occur. Unsat. Not at all acceptable. While one could assert that a 2 YO should not have been so out of control (my wife has, while discussing this incident), the ability of a small child to do and try things that were not foreseen is amazing. Answer: preclude the danger in other ways.

She was not ready for responsibility of being armed, and she died for it. The child will some day grow up and become aware, and live with this. We will all pay politically for this type of event. All of this was preventable, but occurred because the seriousness of the decision to be armed, and the duties that come with it, were not given their proper priority. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If you are this cavalier about your decisions about being armed, change, or don't be armed. If you are in a position where you can influence people, teach that same standard. Nothing less is appropriate.

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NHI, 10-8.

I personally think carrying a weapon that is not fully charged and ready is not very wise. Carry your pistol properly secured and ready for business and practice good handling of the weapon....

There is almost NO way to have an accidental discharge if your pistol is properly handled and managed even in extreme circumstance.

I do myself prefer a thumb safety.

This family must be in our prayers, BUT the weapon was most obviously mis-managed with fatal consequence AND it reflects very badly on the rest of us as an aside. A tragedy is all respects.

As stated above-if its an auto-especially a DAO-I want it on me. My wife has a Beretta 21-a in he purse, but it has a serious safety.

My interests tend to take me back to older firearms, and this comment reminded me of the story of how S&W developed the New Departure revolver 130-something years ago. It was hammerless, had a grip safety, and had an interesting double action trigger that started heavy, and then lightened way down, making it easy to stage and shoot accurately. It was a clever design, intended to improve safety. Here's a quote from Mr. Jinks' book:

"Legend has it that D.B. Wesson (founder Daniel Wesson) developed the Safety Hammerless model in a night-long session after hearing that a child had accidentally been hurt by cocking and pulling the trigger on one of the Smith & Wesson Double Action Revolvers. This legend cannot be substantiated, since factory records show a methodical development of the revolver. D. B. Wesson was a sensitive person and perhaps after hearing of this accident was inspired to work very closely with his son Joe to develop a revolver with a safety on the handle and a strong trigger that would require a long pull, making it impractical for a child to pull through and fire...this style of revolver also stems from the law enforcement officer's requirement to draw his revolver from his coat pocket without the exterior hammer catching in the pocket lining."

LAPD Officer Shot by 3 Year Old Son

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

This is a tragic situation, lets not let it degrade into the old argument/discussion about a round in the chamber. Every time anything close to this comes up, everybody trots out their personal beliefs. We talk about anti gunners using every tragic opportunity to push for their personal agenda, yet we do the same with "one in the chamber".

I feel for the family, especially the kid and what will have to be dealt with in the future.

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Minimize the variables

Carrying an unloaded weapon......you might as well just carry a rock. I do, however, use my safety. Just train to click off safety while drawing your weapon. Key is train, train, train.

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Shield9-LCP Custom-M&P 15-22

north-carolina.gif

You hit the nail on the head.

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CCA of North Carolina
A.D.S.I

I carry a firearm to protect myself, my family or someone I don't even know in a time of need but my first and foremost responsibility is to make sure I protect myself, my family and everyone else from that firearm when it is holstered or being stored. Negligence is very real and any person who carries a weapon of any sort without proper training and awareness of the risk they pose to themselves or others is downright negligent. In the busy lives we live today it is easy to lose sight of how fast things can escalate into a situation like this.

Good question, and you kind of got me there. But my point is not that revolvers are greatly safer than pistols, but that whatever you carry you benefit from having layers of safety and a system that requires a conscious step to operate the firearm.

I do keep the J frame loaded. The "safety" is the long and heavy trigger pull and secondarily, that it is always in a holster that covers the trigger. There is no mechanical safety.

My view of the problem is also influenced by the fact so many people spending a lot of time lightening the trigger for their revolver or pistol, e.g., fitting lighter springs or Apex parts. Exhibit A of this trend is this forum. And then they carry the striker-fired pistol essentially half-cocked, 2 lbs pull away from a ND. They are, in effect, taking away one of their safety layers by carrying a round in the chamber.

If the striker fired pistol is left unmodified, it generally has a long trigger pull, too (most notably in the S&W SD-series), much like a revolver. If it has a safety, and it is used, all the safer.

My favorite pistol is the M&P9, and I've got a couple of Apex bits in there that take the trigger down to a very light and smooth pull. Great on the range. I do not carry it with a round in the chamber. (I usually carry a revolver, but if I am out in the woods and can carry a larger pistol, I carry the unmodified SD9).

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S&W Rover

north-carolina.gif

You are correct sir....

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CCA of North Carolina
A.D.S.I

Kids are ingenius. If the trigger is too hard to pull with their finger, they turn it around and use both thumbs, with equally tragic results.

So far, S&W Rover's comment is my favorite one in this thread. Safety really does come in layers, and increasing the number of things that have to go wrong before an unintended discharge can occur is a good idea.

A modern, loaded, single-action, striker-fired pistol, that lacks either a grip safety or a thumb safety, requires only one thing to discharge (barring some kind of mechanical malfunction). That's a relatively small amount of pressure on the trigger that causes the trigger to move a relatively small distance to the rear. That kind of pistol demands a lot of robustness in all the other layers of safety. There is very little room for mistakes.

For that reason, I prefer carry guns with long trigger pulls, or with heavy trigger pulls, or with a robust thumb safety design. Those guns still require additional layers of safety for carry, but it's harder for mistakes to line up and cause an unintended discharge. Personally, that makes me feel better, but everyone has to make their own decision.

Want to help prevent tragic situations resulting from a negligent discharge of a firearm by someone unauthorized to handle a firearm? Keep them from having access to it.

For those who may be interested in a 10-year old article discussing ways to help cops reduce exposure to experiencing negligent discharges:
Stop Accidental Discharges - Article - POLICE Magazine

Think a heavy DA/DAO trigger will 'prevent' an unintended discharge just by itself? People are still people.

Remember this one, where a cop managed to trigger a round from what I thought I remembered was a Beretta 96G (DAO)?
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...&hsimp=yhs-001

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

In the house I would presume she kept the gun stored away from her son, perhaps in a safe or high upon a shelf or dresser. She let her guard down and left her purse where her kid could easily grab hold of it. An error on her part, which sadly cost her her life, left her kid motherless, and husband a widow. Losing focus can be the cause of just about any kind of accidental death. Loaded or unloaded, one in the chamber or not, safety or safety less, don't allow yourself to be complacent or lose focus when a firearm is on your person or nearby.

Good analyses by most. Yes it is unfortunate and there are several lives that will be adversely impacted by the event. Longer term damage will be done to us collectively as the anti-gun faction will be thrilled to get as much mileage out of this as possible. All the more reason for for us to be vigilant and practice what we have (hopefully) learned and preach. Be safe out there!

Mechanical safeties are optional. The real safety, which is not optional, is between one's ears. Sadly, there are some people who use that space only to keep their ears from touching. One can only have an ND with a Glock, M&P, or other striker fired pistol, if they blatantly violate rule 3. And efforts to make the Glock more idiot proof at NYPD, instead of providing adequate training, have created MORE problems. The Apex kits come in at least 2 varieties - one of which is a Duty/carry design, and according to every qualified person whose opinion I have encountered, that version is perfectly fine for that purpose. (If the reset fetishists could have their training scar fixed, there would be less trouble about this, too.)

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NHI, 10-8.

I think this reinforces my commitment to revolvers for CC. I don't think the poor little guy would have been strong enough to pull the trigger on DA . Just too sad for words and my heart goes out to them all.

The first safety of any firearm you own is YOU. How it is handled, where it is kept,and who has access to it.
For those of you who have never had children, allow me to give you some advice( and remind those of you who DO have kids ). A 2 year old child will get into EVERYTHING. You will forever be astounded at the things they can get into. If this poor kid ever saw Mom pull some gum or a piece of candy out of her purse , that is more than enough reason for them to dig through the purse. On top of that, they're constantly curious,and always finding new things that can amuse them. This tragedy occurred because this woman got complacent in her responsibility.
For those who consider carrying unloaded, please take some time to do some research. One of the most common statements in a self defense situation is " It all happened so fast". Look at the " 21 foot rule " and see exactly what it's about. Take a friend and do some drills. See how fast he can get to you if you have to chamber a round first. Then take into account that you won't be nearly as ready if something goes badly for you. You will find you won't have time.If you carry a revolver, you're already down on ammo over a semi-auto. Being 15-20% further down is decreasing your chances even further.
Practice presenting whatever you carry. Take time to do it slowly, and do it deliberately. Look objectively at what you may be doing wrong. Fix it and try again. Train to take the safety off on the draw, but leave your finger outside the trigger guard. Again, the last safety of any firearm is YOU.

For every ND that kills someone, I'd bet there are a hundred that injure someone, or just leave a hole in the floor, or cause a TV set to blow up (Rule #1 violated by dry-firers who are surprised when there is a round in the chamber). One suspects a few family cats, ready targets for dry-firers watching TV in the barca-lounger, have died this way...

Every ND is an argument, in some minds, for more gun control. In addition to being a tragedy. This case (the woman shot by the child) is getting a lot of press coverage... being exploited on behalf of increased gun control.

I usually lose the argument about a round in the chamber in terms of numbers -- most people disagree with me, and that is probably the case on this forum, too. I will stand on one thing, though: my argument is not based on squeamishness or ignorance of guns. This is a moral argument, not a technical one.

The right to self-defense (and defense of innocents) has an unassailable moral and legal basis. As imperative as that is, it does not mean I can invoke "self-defense" without due diligence. The equation is NOT will I be better able to defend myself if I have a round in the chamber. If that were the only test, then there should always be a round in the chamber! What is my calculus? Is the reduction in threat to me with a round in the chamber, compared to risk with the first round still in the magazine, worth the increased threat to me and to others caused by the potential for a ND? I believe the answer is no, even if the risk is statistically very small, because of the moral responsibility involved if I hurt an innocent person by mistake.

(And note that this argument does not apply to the Police, who have an imperative to respond to violent actors, thus bringing great and unpredictable danger upon themselves AND the requirement to apply force to protect society, which justifies carrying rounds in the chamber).

I do not believe my right to defend myself outweighs everyone else's right to be safe. In the logical extension of this principle, I have drilled and drilled on the idea that I will not shoot unless a life is threatened, and I'm not shooting unless I am sure of where that bullet is going if it misses or passes through the person (or beast) threatening innocent lives. For most city/suburban scenarios, this rule means I do not intend to fire unless I know exactly what the backstop is going to be. I expect to run away, or hold fire and maneuver to a better firing location, yes potentially increasing the risk to me, to avoid hitting an innocent victim somewhere behind the threat.

Likewise, I practice a lot at the range, building on several shooting courses attended over the years, to increase the odds I will hit what I am going to shoot at. Which is part of the due diligence required before using a weapon in a defensive situation, in my opinion. Similarly, I select ammunition suited for the potential target and environment -- usually the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 38 Special +P 135 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point for my J frames.

That's just my philosophy. If you think my premise is correct -- that our firearms can potentially hurt innocent life as well as protect it -- there is a lot to think about, and perhaps getting that first shot off quickly is not #1.

In short, I don't think this shooting was necessary nor is it morally justifiable under the doctrine of self defense. Mindset, training, good procedures, safe carry, layers of safety well thought out (including an empty chamber), positive control of the firearm, and more factors in that poor woman's control and under her moral responsibility when taking up a lethal weapon could have prevented this event. She is dead, but it could have been the child, or another innocent in a nearby shopping cart.

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S&W Rover

I would think it would take at least a couple of minutes for a 2 year old to unzip the holster and take the gun out point it and pull the trigger. If it had a safety (mine does) it would have been even harder for the 2 year old to do as the safety on mine takes some force to click off. It seems that the child had some time unobserved for this to happen and that is never good with a 2 year old. Gun or no gun.

Hi, believe it or not as you get more comfortable with carrying you will change your mind. The only reason that you are aware of accidents is that they are heavily reported by the news media whereas CCW holders who successfully deter a BG is barely reported at all. In fact for many you have to go to the American Rifleman or Combat Handguns to find the reports. I highly encourage you to take one of Mas Ayoob's courses

This is the reason I always suggest body carry only.
Plus for you ladies, If someone snags your purse you've lost all of your self defense options.

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John

Amen. That about sums it up.

For some NDs committed by people who have more firearms training than the average: Search Result: Accidental Discharges - POLICE Magazine

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S&W Rover