Interesting story about police m&p pistol contract

The Texas story sounds like somebody doesn't like change, and/or their officers are particularly hard to retrain for some reason.

scooter123 said:

Those two stories are some of the worst examples of Investigative Journalism I've ever seen.

...what State Agency would bring in retired former investigators to do a job that they are already paying a salary to full time employees to do?

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Not even investigative. Just reporting information based on their understanding. A low threshold.

"Outside" investigators to try and remove any undue influence. Otherwise state investigators would have a personal interest/motive on this case.

S&WIowegan said:

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Personally, I would never want a duty gun I couldn't fire if needed during a reload. I mean really...does this make sense to you LEOs on the board?

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This came up on a restricted board for law enforcement instructors. Within hours, we had double digit lives saved by the device when officers were disarmed (but able to drop the mag before losing control of the weapon). After about 1 month, no one had been able to name one officer who lost their life because of the presence of the device.

In particular, the design of the M&P version requires the mag to almost be falling out of the weapon. If that's the case, the cure is the same as any other IAD: tap, rack, ready. Or, if you want to be proactive: reload, rack, ready. (Some agencies train for a reload in the event of any type of stoppage.)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've been carrying issued S&W auto pistols with the device since about 1992 and don't have any heartburn about it.

It sounds like this is an ethics issue instead of a performance issue.

I'm no .40 zealot. I do own one. There is a definite difference between it and the 9mm in a practical world versus a perfect world. Shooting both calibers at steel targets quickly reveals this. (IMHO)

My agency in Wichita, Ks sent back over 300 M&P's in 2012. This was due to numerous malfunctions over a couple years. Most of the problems were remedied, except for the magazine issue. The cartridges would far too frequently flip inside the magazine causing a malfunction. Since this couldn't be remedied in a more timely manner, my over 625 member strong agency went back totally with Glock 19, or 17 pistols. The Gen 4 did initially have some issues, but Glock very quickly solved the problems. Currently no issues.

I'd say the investigation is going to center around the decision-makers getting personal kickbacks (aka bribes) to go with S&W, which is why they brought in investigators outside the realm of department interpersonal influence.

It seems when two very large agencies that get funding from state legislatures (and who are subject to PIO requests and financial accountability audits from legislative committees) return that many S&W's in total, something is up. It's silly to say "politically motivated" - if the politics were that strong, the darn pistols wouldn't have been picked in the first place.

Yes, I know that many, many folks here are huge fans of the M&P line, but I also know they have had quality control issues and defending one's favorite pistol by attacking two large respectable state LEO agencies as being 'political' just because they didn't like someone's personal fave rave is a bit schoolyardish. I am a huge Sig Sauer fan and only carry Sigs for serious work, but I recognize that Sig has laid some eggs and put out a few less than sterling examples. It happens.

Remember, at the end of the day the competition for these contracts is fierce and all large manufacturers are simply, in the eyes of the state, a vendor.

Having once been responsible for purchasing very expensive equipment for a state agency, I can tell you that vendors will tell you anything you want to hear. Their job is NOT to save your life in a gunfight, it is to make a very big sale that includes years of maintenance costs and parts replacement/consultant expenses. If any politics exists, it is in the politics of S&W, Glock (or whomever) doing what they can to manipulate those politics towards their own ends.

Sorry, but S&W, Glock, H&K, Beretta et al. are not squeaky clean missionaries out doing the Lord's work trying to provide Bibles to save men's souls. They are trying to make a lot of bucks and get a big fat contract to make more.

I have some knowledge of the Texas situation, and I can tell you that the M&P's that were returned were sent back because they were seriously unreliable, malfunctioned at an alarming rate and made many in the dept feel very unsafe. Smith's response was "give us the contract and we'll fix things as we go." Uh, no. Their job was to make a darn gun that worked in the first place, period. This time they didn't.

I don't blame DPS for sending them back and applaud them. This is not an anti-M&P rant or stance, it's just a fact. Smith blew it on that lot and dragged their feet and acted entitled when called upon to fix the issue.

Toyota, Ford and GM occasionally makes lemons, so does Apple, Sony, Tag Heuer, Motorola, Kitchen Aid, and Dell. Everyone does. Smith blew it on those deals and apparently tried other means to win the contract other than making the best weapon.

Where there is smoke, there's often fire. I've heard more than one LEO admin say that S&W has been a bit skeevy in their business dealings, offering 'sweetners' to Range Masters or the head FI of agencies to get them to adopt the M&P. Now, I don't know if this is true, personally. But if so, the S&W needs to clean up their act and focus on building great guns and not trying to win all costs. Again, not claiming it's true because I don't know, but I've heard it more than a few times. That article from Iowa just seems to be the latest example and reminds one of how disturbing it is that this has come up on occasion with Smith and Wesson and their M&P contracts.

As far as the Texas DPS goes, I hear they will be adopting the Sig P320 instead, which apparently aced the second round of testing and trounced Glock and the M&P. That's not politics, it's fact.

Oh, and to the genius that said "Unfortunately, the DPS is run by a woman lawyer who is pure bureaucrat, never a LEO. She is wildly over-reacting to a common bitching by the losing bidder(s). She may love getting her name in the paper"... You know man, a simple Google search could prevent such a wildly inaccurate statement like that.

The Texas DPS is headed by Colonel Steve McGraw, a former FBI Agent and Homeland Security Director who was, before that, a DPS Highway Patrolman and Narcotics Agent.

Smith has witnessed this type of situation three times that I know of: Texas, Iowa and Belgium i believe. It's unnacceptable and it is a reflection of top down management deficiencies. I've spent my life working for fortune 500 Mfg. firms.

Sgt. Peck....

Cartridges flip inside the magazine?? Literally??

We had a New M&P 9mm pro series being used in an IDPA match Thurs that malfunctioned and found the top cartridge in the magazine backwards, just assumed it got that way somehow during the clearing......or was loads that way.... Something else going on??

Fire 4606; I don't know how it happens, something about the shape of the magazine, design of the follower or something. But when officers were at the range shooting their M&P's some would have malfunctions and when the weapon was inspected a cartridge would be turned around in the magazine. It happened a lot according to armorers. Which, eventually caused the decision to entirely go back to Glock.

I've been carrying a Glock since 1988 and am pretty much all in. But the M&P does feel good in the hand. If they get all the kinks worked out i.e. the magazine issue, I'm sure it will be a good weapon.

I really can't believe a cartridge flipped. I would not support the M&P if it was deficient but this is unbelievable.

So Sgt. Peck is lying? I have no dog in this fight. I just hate that the poor management of Smith and Wesson impunes in the integrity of a Marine who's one of Wichita's finest. I lived there for almost two years and one of my best customers is based there. It's a great little town for what it's worth due in part to a no BS police force.

I just bought an M&P9 due to the great ergonomics and because I want an American firm to succeed. Something is not right when you have these incidents in TX and IA and one in Europe where six of the eight thousand pistols are returned.

This doesn't mean we don't love Smith it means the Freedom Group leaders need to come in, take names and kick butt. The implications of a Glock-like M&P in terms of reliability could be huge as in DOD huge. I am a life long salesman. Your actions have ripples.

I would like to know just what and how many malfunctions they encountered with the guns. Are they design problems or are some ammo or shooter induced? Iowa State Patrol has had the M&P for over 5 years so far and not reported major problems. I'm still trying to figure out why they saw a need to replace their original guns already. Price wise it would make sense to stay with what they had, same leather, training, etc. but it seems like we are just spending more of our taxpayers money finding a answer to a unknown problem.

Freedom's Teeth said:

So Sgt. Peck is lying

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I'm not saying he's lying but maybe he should have done a little more detective work and found the real problem. Which was more than likely officers inserting cartridges the wrong way in mags either ignorantly or purposely for an ulterior motive. Some mags will accept backwards bullets others won't. I don't have a Glock so I can't try it but maybe it stems from this H&K and Backwards Bullets: The Real Story - The Firearm Blog

Amen. I've got thousands of rounds through my personal M&P9 and I've never seen a cartridge do a half gainer in the mag. Since the rounds are spring loaded, I expect it's unlikely.

More likely is guys not paying attention while loading mags and/or their helpful buddies misloading the mags for them. I'd like to see independent tests of the suspect weapons & mags.

BTW, back when the Virginia State Police were having "magazine problems" with their S&W 1076, S&W replaced the magazines free. Since we were right down the road, they offered us the used mags at $5 each. We took them all. I do believe we destroyed less than 10 mags that actually were defective. The rest worked fine. Simply operator error. I do wonder what happened to all those mags after we got rid of the 10mm. I found one in a desk drawer several years later.

About those bidding wars-it's really amazing what some vendors will do to get contracts. The county I live in adopted a pistol one time because the vendor replaced all their duty gear free. That turned out to be a real learning experience for the county. Fortunately, no one got hurt.

Many times our experiences on the range are nothing like Military or LEO range time. I would say most of the time.

Definitely true. That said, why are you making assumptions about my range time without supporting data? Rather similar to your assumptions about the causes of the alleged issues.

Hint: look at the phrase "after we got rid of the 10mm".

Point well made W. R. I want Smith to be wildly successful. I want them to eclipse Glock. They can with leadership.

The problem is glock, the gun is more myth than reality. Glock has spent an insane amount of money on advertising especially movie placement. Not just the gun but they paid to have the gun mentioned in the dialog itself. Combine that with years of discounted contracts to law enforcement. Now between the movies and most law enforcement carrying a glock people have built a myth around the gun.

So much so that they overlook all the actual problems and short comings. Like slide rails being sheared off, faulty recoil springs, plastic non dovetailed sights, plastic guide rod. I have owned a few glocks they weren't my thing because of grip angle. But I love the trigger especially compared to SW.

Now guys create an issue where there is none and claim well if I had a glock it wouldn't fail. Weak ammo can account for a good many of problems. The funny thing is a guy has a FTF with a glock he will overlook it but a FTF with an M&P and the gun is at fault. Guys today have the thought that glocks are perfect in every way so hard wired in their head they will always think that no matter what. Truth is most modern guns are reliable. Break any semi auto down they are all just about the same. There is nothing magic inside a glock.

Glock has been on top for so long they forgot how to be competitive. A prime example is there late to the party single stack 9mm. For what they offer they really need to reduce their cost. I'd think losing law enforcement contracts to other manufactures put a little fear in glock. Because if law enforcement switched to say sig consumers would follow. I wouldn't doubt the wheels of progress were greased by glock reps to give depts a little motivation to go back to glock.

There's another aspect to this: Glock has been doing polymer pistols since 1982 and the design build process started in 1979. The M&P came out in 2005. Additionally, the environmental regs are much tougher in the U. S. versus other regions of the world ergo metal finishing techniques.

S&W has the ergonomics down pat. They need to keep refining other aspects of the platform. The fundamentals are sound.

If I am not mistaken, doesn't Glock turn around and sell the pistols they take in trade to wholesalers? If they do, that surely helps to subsidize their cost of goods sold.