So I'm a relatively new shooter. I purchased a 9mm Shield at the beginning of the year and I've been going to the range regularly (once or twice a month). I've been watching numerous training videos such as Magpul Dynamics: Art of the Dynamic Handgun with Chris Costa and Travis Haley. I know that's not considered formal training, but hey, whatever works. The reason for my purchase was for self defense. I'm 23 years old and I am a pizza delivery driver and after hearing of a local robbery in which the driver actually fired her weapon and successfully neutralized the threat, I decided it was time for me to follow suit. I applied for and received my concealed carry permit and I've carried every day for the past 9 months. I also have a full size M&P 9mm on layaway. Anyway, there's some background information on me. In every single video, instructional article, thread post, magazine article, etc. I've read that the correct sight picture is front sight, front sight, front sight. Everything should be blurry except for that front sight. However, that does not work for me. I don't know why or how I started doing this, but I focus on the target. Everything is blurry except for the target. That's just the way my eyes see things. I've talked to and shot with my father-in-law who is a police officer and he says that whatever works for me that I should just keep doing what I'm doing. And it does work for me. I hit what I'm aiming for and I'm accurate. From all of the things I've learned about firearms, I've picked up the fact that pretty much everything is based on personal preference. I'm just wondering if that is one of those things that is personal preference or if it's cemented-in-concrete-law when it comes to shooting.

Drew: If you'll be shooting within...say...12' & the attacker's moving toward you, then you won't have time to bring the pistol up to eye height to find the front sight. See the target, point the pistol at center mass, & FIRE to stop the attack. Important, however, that you PRACTICE that kind of "point shooting". For some (maybe you), it comes natural. Others don't have a natural feel for where the pistol is pointing when held down low. As someone pointed out in a different thread, HITTING the attacker on the 1st & if necessary the 2nd shot is CRUCIAL!

Hitting a smaller object &/or at a farther distance generally requires more accuracy and THEN seeing the front sight becomes very important. Practice both & force yourself to see that front sight for a distant shot. If it's blurry, consult an optometrist. You may be far-sighted & need corrective glasses

Hank M.
NRA Pistol Instructor

Good info Hank, I'm guilty of forgetting to practice that type of close up shooting with the gun not at eye level. I do hip shooting with rifles all the time just for fun but forget with the handguns.

If you do some digging on Target Focused Shooting you'll find that there is actually a counter to that Front Sight Focus nonsense. Yeah, I did say Nonsense. The problem with focusing on the front sight is that it causes you to follow the front sight during recoil. As a result you have to re-acquire your sighting point on your target after every shot, which costs TIME. In addition it also means that you won't focus your vision on the exact same point on the target and that degrades accuracy.

With Target Focused Shooting your gaze remains fixed on your target and as soon as the sights come into acceptable alignment you can then release another shot. If you check with competitors in shooting sports such as IDPA you'll find that the ones who do really well tend to be Target Focused shooters and if you check with local PD Firearms Training Officers you will find the same technique being taught. Because while it may seem less accurate when done properly it can result in a higher rate of fire with very little loss in accuracy.

Yeah, I'm a Target Focused Shooter. Have been since I lost the ability to focus on handgun sights. Back in 2008 when I was taking a class taught by a local PD Firearms Instructor I told him I couldn't focus in handgun sights at the start of the class and his reply was that was a good thing. Because what he taught was Target Focused and I wouldn't have any bad habits to break. I finished that class with a .39 second split while holding a 5 inch group at 30 yards, which the instructor declared was "perfectly adequate".

I've heard all kinds of different things on how to aim a handgun. I'm right handed, and have always focused on aiming with my right eye and gun sights. I have an army buddy that swears by aiming with his off eye(he is R handed and aims with his left eye), which just doesn't feel right to me. Recently, I have been trying to use both. Focusing on the target with my left eye while keeping the gun sights superimposed over the target with my right. Not sure if its worth messing with, but I just started trying it out and it seems to work pretty well

I only have a couple years shooting experience so didn't come into the game with habits good or bad. As the high % of my practice times have been at indoor ranges (most at a 10yd max) I've learned to do pretty well focusing on the front site.
Note that as a grandpa i also have 'old man eyes' lol and have to wear progressive bifocals (plus with add'l corrections for double vision). They definitely for me are either clear on the site or on the target.
But using the front site at these range/SD distances is good for me; i will be curious though when i get out on some family property and let some ammo fly at longer distances
(say to 25 yds) if i'll stick with front site or have to focus on the target.

You can focus on the front sight, but it takes training. The thing is throughout your life you have been throwing balls, i.e. baseballs, basketballs and footballs and looking at where you want the ball to end up. Shooting a handgun at any distance over 7 yds. requires you to look at the front sight to get reliable hits, as long as you have great trigger control (the gun doesn't move when the trigger is being manipulated). From 0-7 yards you can focus on the target and "point shoot" as long as you have great trigger control. So for self-defense, you should learn to shoot at longer distances than 7 yds. to develop great trigger control (errors show up at greater distances). You should also learn to draw and shoot (using an empty gun and dry firing is good for this). Always double check your firearm for empty for every dry firing training session. So the answer is, Yes you can learn to focus on the front sight and yes it is essential for shooting at distances greater than 7 yds. and shooting with the sights at greater distances will help you learn great trigger control. Learning to shoot a handgun well requires effort over an extended period of time.

Focusing on the target instead of the front sight is a very common mistake. It's very easy to do and stress and reactive targets increase the temptation to do so. I've missed enough on falling steel during matches to prove that.

As soon as you are able please take a basic handgun course, if you haven't already, and then a defensive handgun course from a quality local firm or instructor. Follow up with low light handgun since you'll be delivering a lot after dark.* For practice at home, off the top of my head, I'm going to recommend dry firing against a blank wall so there's nothing to distract you from focusing on the front sight and trigger pull.

Your statement that you "I hit what I'm aiming for and I'm accurate" is useless. What hit percentage against what size targets at what ranges? The human body is not homogeneous and in self-defense much of it is of low value as a target for bullets. The high-value targets (vital organs) capable of causing rapid physical incapacitation are small relative to the size of the human torso. Using the sights will increase your accuracy significantly, which increases the chances of hitting something useful, which reduces the amount of time the assailant(s) have to harm you. Obviously, if you are forced to shoot from retention you take whatever hits you get.


* If you don't already have one get a good "tactical" flashlight and carry spare batteries with you.

I see this like learning to hit a baseball. For most of us, the best way to become a good hitter is to learn how to swing the bat and see the ball in the classic tried and true method before you start switching hands and trying to drop a bunt down the third base line. Take your time and learn get the sight picture down and get repeatable shots on target before you start shooting with one hand and behind your back! You will never regret that you mastered the basics but you might regret it if you don't! Good luck!

My suggestion is to practice both. The more you practice both sight pictures the more likely you will be to apply the correct method to the proper circumstance. At short distances, and for self defense purposes, you will likely find yourself using the target focus. At longer distances, in competition, or at short distances where absolute dead nuts accuracy is required, you'll find yourself front sight focusing.

Once you are proficient with the basic principles of sight alignment and sight picture, you should switch your point of focus to the target IMO. I've been shooting iron sights with both eyes open for about 10 years now.

The target is clear while the sights are fuzzy......hasn't hurt my accuracy and it helps with speed shooting and multiple targets.

Good luck!!

__________________
MSP - Retired

Target shooting and defensive shooting only have a couple things in common How you use the sights are not the same if your life is on the line at close ranges .

When shooting for group size when young and my eyes worked well all black sights were fine and I could move my focus quickly from sights to target , sorta? but shooting bvowling pins at 100 yards was doable .

As I get older an eyes don't adjust from close to distant with out tri-focals and a small green fiber optic is my front sight is my choice and shooting small groups is a thang of the past !

Defensive shooting is different , more of a look over the sights then on to the target and shoot , What I always considered aimed point shooting or a flash over the sights to see that the pistol is centered on the target in general and shoot your drills that way . Your not shooting a tight group but can be placed tight enough and can work with practice out to 12 yards for me for defensive needs .

Found this last week .
This video is from a Gunsite Academy instructor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fEE5GB-nu4

Welcome to the forum, and I salute your steps to protect yourself. You'll likely find out how much fun recreational shooting can be.

Drew,

Get yourself a copy of Andy Stanford's "Surgical Speed Shooting". Chapter 5 is on aiming and describes a target-focused shooting, but using the basic alignment of sights to index the pistol. I am an instructor and will start out new or poor pistol shooters with the fundamentals, which include proper sight alignment and picture (front sight focus) because I believe that they are the foundation to understanding how to properly shoot a handgun; but the fact of the matter is that the point shooting techniques have been used in combat successfully long before the training shift to modern technique. I am in the same boat as some of these other posters who are striving to find a happy medium between pistol sights and optical correction. My personal experience is currently leading me to more highly visible front sights backed by more subdued rears. Another author to study is the late Jim Cirillo, who flavored his instruction and writing with some exceptionally detailed recollections of real world deadly force encounters as an NYPD detective back in the 1960s. Jim was already an experienced shooter and one if his messages was that training will take over - if you are in the mindset to take training seriously in the first place. I would recommend that when you can, to take a basic pistol class followed by something more advanced. Be receptive to the tools the live instructors are offering, and then look for a good instructor who teaches target-focused shooting.

If you can keep your controlled pairs in a hand span sized group out to 20 yards you should be fine.
Although there are different sighting methods, there is no one perfect method for everyone due to physical limitations or whatever.
Hand span sized groups are a comfortable balance between accuracy and speed.
If your pairs are touching, speed things up.
If the group gets too big, slow down.

When you practice drawing and firing at your side make sure your weak hand is tucked in somewhere so you don't shoot it.

Don't laugh, I've seen it happen.

__________________
John

I need a dot optic to that now at 25 yards but I can still place all my rounds in a hand size target with my wifes 4.25 core and rmr as quickly as the slide settles an good control allows . That's like running steel plates ! But with open sites it would be more dumb luck to shot anything close to a group . Why I train as I do .

Thanks.

I just bought the Kindle ver for $10:
Surgical Speed Shooting

__________________
Be safe. Live long & prosper.

Welcome to the forum from Texas. Just every so often here at home a pizza delivery person is robbed and sometimes assaulted and I always wondered why they do not carry a pistol to protect themselves.

It seems as though you have got many good suggestions as to sight pattern and different ways to sight your pistol. No use in me saying anything else along those lines. I commend you for getting your conceal carry license and good luck.

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James
On the Llano Estacado

Trigger control is tops. Without proper trigger control, all the sight alignment is wasted.

Some interesting opinions on sighting.

You asked about the proper sight picture. Yes, hard focus on the front sight. You can do it unless you need reading glasses like I do.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I focus on the target while both of my sights are not perfectly in focus i can see them clearly to align them for accurate shots. I also shoot both eyes open though with my left eye squinted and slightly out of focus.... which keeps from seeing doubles.

there is no right or wrong way. you have to use what works best for you. But be open minded and try different things. I doubt the best shooters all do it the same... but clearly use what works.

At pizza delivery defense distances, point shooting ability is extremely valuable, although it takes some practice to become instinctive.
I start people out close, have them take whatever sight picture they want, then have them drop their hands down only 4 inches or so, so they can see the gun but aren't looking through the sights. Use a paper plate on the target as the bullseye, because we aren't training for target groups. When it gets easy, back up and/or speed up. Learn to draw from the holster and fire without taking the time for a sight picture. A hit on the paper plate at 5 to 7 yd in less than a second is possible with practice.
Some people practice until they do it once; the good ones practice until they do it every time.

__________________
Science plus Art

Looking at the target while trying to shoot at distances over say, 7 yards or so, will never get you center hits. Ask any bullseye pistol shooter, who uses iron sights, if he looks at the target at either 25 yards or 50 yards. Like I said, point shooting at close distances can be effective as long as one has good trigger control. That is the time to focus on the target.

Wow, I was not expecting so many replies in such a short time! Thank you to everyone for the support and advice. I will take everyone's opinions into consideration and I will continue to work on everything I can to make myself a great defensive shooter.

Apparently some reading this don't understand the concept of Target Focused Shooting, so I'll clarify it a bit. In Target Focused Shooting you still align the sights on the handgun, the difference is that the focus of your vision is on the target.

By doing this you will see just one single target if shooting with both eyes open instead of the two images yielded when focusing on the front sight. Note, keep in mind the convergence of our eyesight and it's effect when reading this statement. If you concentrate when focusing on a front sight you will observe that there are two target images in your visual field when focusing on the front sight.

So, how do you align the sights when your vision is focused on the target. It's actually very simple but you do need to be using sights designed for high visibility. If you attempt Target Focused shooting with plain black sights you'll find that you can't see the sights distinctly enough but instead must use what I call Weapon Guided Point Shooting, which does have some advantages for close ranges. What you do is bring the sights into alignment between your dominant eye and then release the trigger when that happens.

Read that last statement again and read it carefully. Then you should realize the benefit of Target Focused Shooting. That benefit is in the rate of fire. With Target Focus you don't become hyper critical about sight alignment and you don't "chase" the front sight during recoil, you release the trigger as soon as the sighting is good enough. What is surprising is just how accurate you can become with Practice.

I've spent the past summer shooting my rifles and have been neglecting my handgun practice. Two weekends ago it really showed, because I was Low and Left for most of my hour. Yesterday I got rid of the Low & Lefts about 1/3 of the way through my hour and finished up with my 45 caliber SR1911 CMD shooting a .3 second split into 7 inches at 30 feet and not one single round missed the COM. With more practice I expect to be back to 5 inches and a split in the region of .25 seconds within a month.

You are shooting at 10 yards? Yeah, point shooting with practice will work at that distance as long as you have great trigger control. Focusing on the sights is required at greater distances. I'm not a fan of the current trend to ONLY shoot a handgun at close distances. You can get away with a lot of mistakes at closer distances, but longer distances will require a strict attention to sight alignment and trigger control. There is really nothing new under the sun when it comes to iron sighted handguns and accurate shooting. Scopes and red dots are another story.

I can hit just fine at 25 yards focusing on the target. As I said my sights... even though they are not in perfect focus.... are still clearly visible to align for accurate shots. I agree that trigger control is the key factor. As long as you're able to align the sights you will hit the target. Also when you do have the front sight in focus the rear is still blurred so how can alignment be any better. I feel that people have taken the phrase "focus on the front sight" too literally. I think it should be more attention focus not optical focus that's required. Get the front sight on target and properly squeeze the trigger and you get hits up close...take more time to align the rear sight at greater distance.

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding the importance of sights on a handgun and focusing on the front sight. The manufacturers don't put them there for the tacticool factor. They actually have a use. There is no reinventing the wheel when it comes to the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship.

I always find these discussions interesting. Prior to Jack Weaver, no one used the sights on their pistols. They all thought that speed trumps accuracy and they were wrong. Jack came along and realized that by using his sights he would lose a tiny bit of speed, but hit the target the first time, every time. He started winning and became an icon.

Now, there are plenty of guys saying not to use the sights again because it's faster. You can say that the sights are in the picture, but the focus is on the target. That just means you're not really using the sights.

Hey, if it works for you, do it. The targets don't lie and the truth comes out at the range.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Say Rastoff, what do or how do you do it in that case?
I use my driving glass when at the range, I cant read street signs from afar. Now when at the range wearing this glass, my target is very clear, but my front sight is blurry. If I remove the glass and use my regular (non prescription) shooting glass, its the reverse, front sight is clear but target is blurry.
So what I do is, wear the regular no grade glass then stop after a running mag and wear the other one to check my target. I dont have this issue when shooting rifles.

An excellent question. The answer is, it depends.

For bulls-eye shooting, there's only one answer; use the glasses that allow you to see the front sight the best.

Defensive shooting doesn't allow the luxury of picking the correct lenses for the situation. You simply have to run with what you've got on. So, the question becomes, what level of accuracy is necessary?

At extremely close range, 3 yards or less, instinctive or point shooting is almost a necessity. If the bad guy is moving toward you at that distance, he'll be on you before you get the gun out. It may be worth it to create some space first and then present the gun.

At further distances, say 5 yards or more, I still use the front sight. In my case, I can't focus on the front sight without glasses. Even so, I'm still concentrating on the front sight. Yes, it's blurry, but I have the best chance of an accurate hit if I keep my concentration on the front sight.

In your case potpot821, it sounds like you're near sighted. Again, depending on the situation at hand, it might be worth it to just chuck the glasses and focus on the front sight. Even if the front sight isn't perfectly clear, concentrating on it elevates your chances of quality hits.

Focusing on the target usually means you're not using the sights at all. That drastically reduces the ability to aim. Remember, fast misses get you nothing. Slow hits are better than a miss, but you might get shot first. A balance must be achieved between speed and precision.

Regardless, I recommend concentrating on the front sight. Some will disagree with me. Meh, the target at the range doesn't lie. So, get out there and practice and see what works for you. Get a timer and put yourself under some pressure.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

@Rastoff, thanks for this discussion about glasses.
I too have "old man's eyes" (that's any male over 40), and so I wear glasses with progressive lens. Thus I have the same issue as you brought up.

That is one of the reasons that I bought my Shield with a laser sight (Crimson Trace green). It would seem to avoid the debate of sight vs target focus -- with the laser they are one and the same (I hope).

I haven't really seen this discussed. If I am woke up ion the middle of the night I don't have to worry about even putting on my glasses. I just put the laser dot on the target and fire.

What are your thoughts about practicing and relying on use of the laser sight (in addition to using the iron sights)?

__________________
Be safe. Live long & prosper.

Easy answer: As Cooper said, "always use your sights if you can." As Clint Smith says, "if you wish to hit your target, use your sights."

There are times when you cannot get a precise target shooter's sight picture, and for those times use a "flash sight picture" or at least a very rough alignment of the firearm by getting it up within your peripheral vision, etc.

As to the proper sight picture, the front post is centered laterally in the rear notch with equal light on each side of the post, and the top of the front post should be the same height as the top of the rear sight. And, since it is impossible for your eye to focus on three things that are not the same distance from your eye, the focus is on the front sight so that the target is blurry. The rear sight is not as blurry as the target as it is closer to the front sight, on which the shooter is actually focused, but it will not be as clear as the front sight, which should be where your focus is directed.

Just to be clear, I never advocated for not using the sights, only that having the front sight in focus is not always required.

Train to focus on the THREAT. Defensive use of a firearm is not range or competitive shooting where you shoot at a TARGET. Targets don't move erratically, dynamically and unpredictably trying to avoid your shots while shooting back at you, targets don't use cover, they don't charge you with a knife or tire iron, try to disarm you, ambush you when you least expect it etc. etc., but threats do.

Can you (and should you) really use your sights in a gunfight?

...

I agree with this.

Mister X,
The way I read your posts, you're advocating never using the sights in a defensive situation. Is that correct?

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I only use focused shooting for seeing what a new defensive handgun can do and for hunting , after than I don't care much . I glance or flash on the sights to see that there centered well on a target and try to run different numbers of rounds on target for a controlled group size I work to keep all my rounds inside the center A zone of a uspsa target , that's 6x11 inch's starting at 3 yards working out to 10 yards . Then see how you do at 12 and 15 yards just so you understand whats possible .

Till you try some variation of many of the above defensive shooting styles you may not know what your capable of and until you do stop arguing , go shooting and try something new .

In a stressful situation you will focus on the threat (target) it's a natural, human nature thing. So if you can hit things and focus on the target, go with that method. Self defense shooting is totally different from paper target shooting. In my mind if you can focus on the target and hit it then you are using the best method for you.
Gary

In all practical purposes and considering what scenarios the armed civilian is realistically likely to encounter, I think sights are pretty much irrelevant. You focus on the threat and use physical indexing methods. I do not believe a traditional sight picture/sight alignment or even a conventional flash sight picture is necessary at the probable self-defense distances and is actually counter-productive.

Sights might become more important if you needed to make a precision shot and at greater distances, but such occurrences are so improbable for the civilian to be of any great concern. I don't make training to stop an active shooter at long range or pistol sniping a priority.

Using the silhouette of the weapon for indexing, super-imposing the pistol on the mass of the threat could be called an "alternative sight picture". With the gun being brought up and extended parallel with the line of sight, who can say to what degree any given individual is aware of or uses their sights/front sight or is using an alternative sight picture to index the gun even while still focusing on the threat. Irregardless, focusing on the threat is my training policy for the most part irregardless of distance when training with a handgun, but be aware that I rarely ever train much beyond 21 feet.

...

Well, that certainly answers the question.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

In context... The vast majority of civilian defense shootings(high 90's percentile) take place inside 3-5 yards. Sights are irrelevant inside 5 yards for likely scenarios IMO.Therefore, sights are pretty much irrelevant for civilian defensive shooting. Prioritize your training accordingly.

"For close range gunfighting inside of 5 yards, any sights are irrelevant. You explode off the line of fire, press the pistol to the threat and press a burst into their chest. You wait for nothing and use physical indexing methods."
-Gabe Suarez

So, will you and should you focus on your front sight or focus on the threat inside 5-7 yards in probable and realistic civilian self-defense scenarios?

First 2 minutes of the video. Is Pincus wrong?

Jim Cirillo said he focused so hard on his front sight during his many "social target matches" that he could "count the serrations" on his front sight. Wow. I guess he was doing it wrong when he won all those gunfights.

Sights are not irrelevant. You might just find yourself in a fight at more than contact distance.

For the love of Pete, everyone realizes that you do not bring the pistol up for a proper sight picture at contact distance. You use the sights when you can, and when you cannot, you use some other indexing method. Even Rex Applegate brought the pistol up so that it was within his cone of vision to achieve a rough alignment of the pistol itself on the target.

That said, it is entirely possible to bring the pistol up for a "flash sight picture" instantaneously, and anyone who wishes to hit the threat will do so when possible. Jeff Cooper was about as good at trick shooting or hip shooting as anyone I have ever seen, save possibly Bill Jordan, and I am not sure I would want to bet on the difference, and when Cooper demonstrated the difference in time between a full speed locked on hip shot versus a full speed flash sight picture, the difference was so minute it was irrelevant. Better to use your sights when you can.

Jim Cirillo is quoted as saying many things including..."In Law Enforcement, your problem isn't at your front sight, it's in the background. As a Police Officer, you're obligated to make sure that the one you're shooting is the one you should be shooting. If you're looking at your front sight, you can't see that some poor guy is pulling a black wallet out of his back pocket - you think he's pulling a gun."

Sure sounds like he's advocating threat focused shooting there. I'm familiar with Cirillo's idea of an "alternative sight picture" which most would call a form of unsighted fire since focus in on threat not the sights, but still bringing the gun up into line of sight and visually indexing the gun on the target. His "silhouette point" and subconscious shooting" is the essentially the same method Suarez, Pincus and I are advocating. I've not read the book, but according to several sources, it appears Cirillo advocated "alternative sight picture" in close quarters, which to him meant inside 10-15 yards...

Jim Cirillo's Weapon Silhoutte Point Method

Here Are 3

https://books.google.com/books?id=7T...0Point&f=false

And individual opinions can change over time. I don't know if that's the case with Cirillo or the times of his various quotes. Back when I worked retail security next to the housing projects, I was involved in countless altercations with shoplifters. I came out on top in every incident, but my understanding and current views regarding DT, Combatives, H2H, RBMA's differ rather drastically from what they were back then.

I'm not a cop, it's not my job to engage or pursue, so if there is a fairly size-able distance between me and the threat, I likely have other options rather than immediately engaging.

From Michael Janich WILSON DEFENSE JOURNAL: Understanding Point-Shooting- Michael Janich

From Marty Hayes... https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/sighting-fundamentals/

Another perspective from experience...

Bob Stasch of the Chicago PD survived 14 gunfights during his law enforcement career.

At 13:53 of the video interview he discusses aimed/sighted fire vs "unsighted" vs his instinctive or "point shooting". Same method of focusing on the threat and bringing the gun up into the line of sight.

At 22:41 he gives his opinions on two handed vs one handed shooting and combat distances.