I'm working on using a thumbs forward grip with my new shield. I'm having trouble maintaining my grip with the support hand after each shot. I'm resting my thumb on the takedown lever to try and keep it steady but with the recoil it slips off each time. Is this something that will get better with practice or do I need to do something differently? Is it a matter of grip strength?

Most people grip the gun with the firing hand and just place the support hand so it goes along for a ride.
My wife is 4'11" and has small hands, so maintaining a proper grip is critical.

Hard to argue with Bob Vogel:

https://youtu.be/45QhpvY9LZc

Many people wrap the grip with grip tape or a pre-formed grip sleeve. A good firm press of the support hand palm on the exposed grip area and a tight squeeze works good for me on a 9mm Shield.

Maybe I misunderstand your describing your grip, but I think your support hand is up to high.
I think the support hand should be firmly around the fingers of the grip hand doing about 60% of the gripping. Extending the fingers of the grip hand, the fingers should point in a slightly down word angle. One thumb below the other.
Works for me. But I have larger hands.

I don't seem to have a problem with the rest of my hand, just the thumb so I don't know that grip tape would make a difference, my thumb wants to rest along the trigger guard instead of straight ahead. I was reading about using the support hand with a push/pull grip and I had much better groupings doing that right off the bat, it's just that my thumb kind of flies off after the shot. I'll have to try with my thumb lower and the other thumb crossed over instead of just straight along the slide.

The grip tape or wrap from a company like Talon makes the weapon stick in your hand and not move so much, thus your thumbs stay where you put them. The very experienced shooter, Hickock45, of YouTube fame made a point recently of stressing how valuable grip tape is to him on his Glock43 review.

I guess things like tape and rubber grips can help, but they won't cure grip issues.

I don't use as high a support hand as Bob Vogel does, but he is right about using a high grip. The lower you can get the bore in your hand, the easier it will be to control recoil.

A quality grip is made with two fingers and the heel of the shooting hand. It is supported with three fingers and the heel of the support hand. Both the pinkies and thumbs should be relaxed.

I suspect that your support thumb is "jumping" off due to some downward force. If the thumb was relaxed, the likelihood of it heading off in wayward directions will be greatly reduced.

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I'll do some reading on the grip tape. I watched one of Hickok's videos this morning, I liked him.

I don't think my thumbs were relaxed, when I relaxed them, the support hand thumb kind of drops down to rest near the trigger guard. I'm going to have to think about it a little more for next range trip.

Here is my grip:


Not as forward as some of the modern combat shooting guys teach. Still, the thumbs are relaxed, but high. You don't want them so relaxed that they are just flopping around.

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chele, I think it is normal, to be expected, that your thumb will "slip off" due to the recoil, pitch up, of the gun after it has fired.

You can see that in this video, starting at 50 sec:
https://youtu.be/ylh4DyMADRU?t=50s

I don't know because I'm very much a new shooter, but I wonder if your thumb might be a bit high if you are putting it on the takedown lever?
For me, my thumb, pointing forward, naturally falls just at the top of the trigger guard where the frame bulges out. My support hand/thumb looks very much like the one in the above video.

Speaking of which, what do you pros think about the above/below video:
How To Properly Grip A Semi-Auto Pistol - Handgun 101 with Top Shot Champion Chris Cheng from the National Shooting Sports Foundation?
Does he show a good grip technique?
Do you agree with the 70/30 rule (70% of the grip pressure should be from the support hand)?

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chele, I am by no means a pro shooter. I think i am decent for my experience level but i KNOW FOR SURE, for me the grip tape makes a huge difference. I personally wont shoot without it. You can even put a small piece on your take down lever if you wish.
If you plan to try it out dont waste your money with talon or the others. Simply go to your local skateboard shop and buy a piece from them. Much cheaper and you can do more than just the grip if you want like the trigger guard or the takedown lever. The one thing i do not like about the talon (kother than price) is it wraps all teh way around your grip in one piece so you cant change backstraps if you want to. Just another option to try. Hope all works out for you. Talon grips=$17 plus shipping Skate shop $7 no shipping

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This is probably not the best thing to do, but I have grip tape on the front of my trigger guard. I then wrap the forefinger of my support hand around the front of the guard. Works for me.

Good illustration!
Note the palm of the support hand is flat against the grip. The gun is held by pressing the palms together using upper arm strength. Attempting to hold the gun tightly with the ends of the fingers and thumbs makes it more likely to slip on recoil.

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Are you a lefty? My grip looks like that but my right thumb is on top, I'm right handed.

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I'm not Rastoff, but yes, you are right, he is a lefty. :-)

There is no rule saying you must use a thumbs forward grip. I don't. Also, make sure you are comfortable and able to shoot your shield with one hand. In an actual defense scenario, there is a fairly good chance you'll fire one handed.

5 Lost Secrets of Combat Handgunnery | Gun Digest

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/def...-fundamentals/

...

A proper grip will reduce muzzle jump or flip. The muzzle of your Shield is probably jumping up and your thumb is staying where it was, therefore appearing to slide down. With a proper grip, your thumb should stay in the same location on the fame of your pistol.

There is a point or axis of rotation (upward) when a pistol recoils. The farther back your grip, the more rearward that axis is, and the more muzzle jump you will get. The more forward your grip, the more forward that axis of rotation. The more toward the center of the gun from back to front that axis is, the more you can control muzzle rise with a good grip.

Having a high grip has a similar influence on the axis, moving it up and therefore producing less rotation.

Don't bother to do this, but imagine gripping the gun with one hand, purposefully low, with your hand as much behind the gun as possible, and with a fairly loose grip. What do you think will happen to the muzzle if you shot?

Using your shooting hand alone, mostly behind the grip, will produce a rear located axis. You will get muzzle flip. This cannot be avoided.

Adding the second hand to the gun changes things dramatically if done correctly--moving the axis forward and higher. If the second hand is low, toward the rear, and too relaxed, it will have less effect on muzzle flip. While the second hand thumb is not really the critical component of a good grip, it is an indicator that the rest of the grip is working correctly.

The two keys to the second hand reducing muzzle flip are:

1. The meat of the second hand thumb fills the void on the grip between the shooting hand finger tips and the shooting hand thumb meat. This gives close to 100% grip coverage and control. There should be good pressure from both hands all around the grip. This may be difficult to do on small guns as the hands tend to be too large to properly grip. Practice a lot just grabbing and holding the gun without shooting until it feels "right", as secure as possible.

2. The fingers of the support hand do more to control muzzle flip than any other part of the grip. Their downward and rearward pressure on the grip (through the shooting hand fingers) make the biggest difference. Like riding a bike, you will find a grip that feels just right, with comfortable control, if you keep practicing without even firing.

The placement of your thumb(s) pointed at the target actually helps you to point the gun more naturally, but they don't contribute to recoil management. The more forward that second hand thumb is, the easier it is to point toward the target.

What I find helps with that is to rotate the second hand thumb meat upward as high on the grip as possible. This allows me to comfortably lay my second hand thumb along the frame right at the juncture of the slide.

As well, I have found it helps to rotate my shooting hand grip slightly around the rear of the grip so it's thumb can rest on top of the rear of the second hand thumb and along the frame (thus pointing at the target). On a small gun like the Shield this also improves trigger finger placement so you use the end pad rather than the joint of your finger on the trigger. Part of your shooting hand will come off the grip slightly just behind the trigger. That's OK. Your fingers pulling the gun back into the rear part of the grip--your palm and thumb--is what will give you the best stability with just one hand.

After trying to put all these elements together for a few days practicing at home, one day everything just felt right. I went and shot. The gun pointed naturally and quickly, and muzzle rise, even with the Shield, was greatly reduced. My hands and thumbs stayed in place. When I got this same grip on my FS M&P 9, the gun hardly moved upon firing.

Sorry I don't have a photo, but this grip is the same as what you will see in instructional videos of the high, forward grip. Done correctly, it works to keep the gun steady and pointed in at the target, including immediately after recoil. Your thumbs will stay in place along the side of the gun.

I hope this doesn't sound too complex. The videos I have seen show the grip but do not explain the elements very well. Good shooting!

Jerry Miculek also demonstrates grip, and also uses a Shield in an example further into the vid.

https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s

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MisterX makes a good point about being able to shoot 1 handed.
I think it's a good Idea to get a comfortable 1 handed grip with which you can shoot and the apply the support hand accordingly.

Yes, I'm a lefty. I really need to make another picture using a right hand grip. Most people, even lefties, identify better with right hand pictures.

Yes. The only thing about grip is to have a starting point. Then the individual must tailor it to what works best for them.

However, there are some unsafe grip practices and those are just wrong and must be corrected.

There is a valid reason to work on single hand shooting, but I recommend to get the two handed down first. Then work on single hand and support hand shooting.

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Best to get up to speed as soon as possible. You don't get to plan when your assaulted.

The OP stated she was a former LEO(primarily used to revolvers IIRC), so I assume she is just having trouble adjusting to this particular handgun. My roots are with wheel-guns, but have just as many auto loaders nowadays and I try to keep as much commonality between the two in terms of skills and how I grip them. Such an approach of making subtle modifications rather than trying to learn a whole new method might be prudent here as well.

Thanks for all the helpful info and videos. I will check those out, I did look at a few last week and they were helpful. CB3-thanks for the very detailed reply. I didn't get all of it but some of it fit with one of the videos I watched so your post explains the video better.

I think it will help once I get my holster as well. Right now at the range I have it on the table in front of me and have to pick it up and get my hands in place. I think practicing drawing from a holster and having my grip in place as the support hand comes up will make a difference.

Mister X-yes, former leo but that was 25 years ago. In the meantime, I had the snubnose 38 but hardly ever went to the range, it was so unpleasant to shoot. Thinking about it, I wonder now if my grip was not right on that gun and that's part of why it hurt so much, I'd end up with blood blisters and bruising in the webbing area.

Thanks for sharing those articles. I found them very helpful.

Although I am still developing/perfecting my two-hand grip, I also have been allotting some time at the range for one-handed grip shooting (primary hand so far). To my amazement, I did much better than I was expecting.

For a number of reasons, I was practicing my response to a home invasion last night (with an unloaded gun) at home. I quickly realized that rarely would I be in a position to use the stance and grip that I had been using at the range, as is taught by many instructors.

I don't really want to expose my full body to an intruder, so shooting from cover seems most likely what I would be doing. This means often (always?) using one hand, taking more of a Weaver stance than an isosceles, and needing to shoot one-handed with both hands.

If I'm doing something wrong here, or there are better ways, I very much welcome feedback and constructive criticism from you experienced pros.

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Link to Using the M&P Shield Segment starting at 14:50

Screenshot from video:


Instructions on grip starting at 10:10

Rough (not perfect) transcription of Jerry Miculek's instructions from video. My additions in square brackets [ ]

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I'm starting to agree with Mr X on this.
I normally grip my pistols just as Rastoff shows on his pic below. It works with my 6904. But when I switch/bought the Shield, shooting it that way doesn't work for me. I can't get POA=POI. But when I tried to place my thumb downward, by the mag release, and place my support hand over it (thumb of support hand still points forward), I was able to hit my targets at 7 yards.

You may need to use one hand sometimes, but certainly not all the time. It is better to use a supported grip whenever possible. It is a better position from which to shoot.

There are 6 fundamentals of pistol shooting:

1. Stance
2. Grip
3. Sight Alignment
4. Sight Picture
5. Trigger Control
6. Follow Through

I'll just talk about Stance and Grip here.

In defensive shooting, Stance means - be the one standing at the end of the fight. I think we can all agree that is the main goal. While a nice bladed Weaver stance or perfect Isosceles stance is better, there may not be time for that.

Here is a video I made for Rastoff's Challenge III. It demonstrates shooting from a barricade, kneeling and support hand shooting:


A good stance will help you shoot better, but defend yourself first.

Grip is similar. Whatever grip is obtained when the gun is first presented is what you'll have to shoot with. So, practice your presentation thousands and thousands of times. This way, the proper grip will be obtained when the stock of the gun is first touched.

Grip is more critical to shooting well. There may be a time when you'll have to shoot without getting the correct grip. The defense against this possibility is practicing the correct grip as soon as your hand hits the stock. Nothing is 100%, but this is the best way to ensure a good hit under extreme stress.

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I should add...

There is no one "correct" grip or stance. The right grip is the one that allows you to put the bullets where you want them to go. The right stance is the one that allows you to put the bullets where you want them to go.

Whatever you do, don't use this as an excuse to not correct your grip or stance.

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Actually, it is not that hard. (1) "Weaver" is a stance, not a grip; (2) Weaver is all about recoil control, and it assumes that the pistol recoils around an axis, and the pull effect Vogel disdains is designed to, and very effectively does, prevent the upward rotation of the pistol during recoil if properly used; (3) Remember that Weaver is designed to control the recoil of full power loads, fight-stopping loads, not custom 135 power factor loads with the recoil of a .380 as used by Vogel and other pro shooters, and if properly used does so very effectively; (4) I know of no pistol that recoils side to side requiring opposing lateral pressure - what is needed is rearward pressure to the lower front of the grip frame to prevent upward rotation of the barrel. The higher your support hand is, the less effective at that, but it need not be that effective with exceedingly light target loads see number 3 above; (5) using a grip style that intentionally cuts your hand is perhaps not lunacy, but it ranks right up there; (6) the high hand method causes the shooter to bend the wrist in ways that my wrist does not bend comfortably - if yours does, then go for it; (7) Vogel is obviously talented, so his method works for him, but it certainly is not for me - I have tried it, and it just does not work. You can say, well the proof is that he is a better shooter than me - and that is likely true, but it is not because of the oddball gripping method - it is because I do not shoot half a million light loads a year in practice. There are, however, others who do not use the "competition grip" taught by so many range guys these days who are better and who use full power ammo.

So, like it or not, I choose not to use THAT method. My wrists simply do not work that way.

Understand that I am not meaning to insult Mr. Vogel or anyone else who uses that grip method. I urge everyone to try all methods, and use what works. That is what I have done. I use a different grip than does Mr. Vogel, and my explanation for why is set forth above.

Great posts guys!

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Thanks Rastoff. I accept everything you said.

Your video perfectly illustrates the point I was (poorly) trying to make about my practice response to home invasion. Barely peeking around a cover, exposing one hand and a very small portion of your head/body, is exactly what I want to do. Therefore, I need to be proficient in one-handed shooting.



I also like your "old man recovery technique", although I'd never admit to it publicly. LOL

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Thanks for the comment, but look closer at the pic. I'm using a two hand supported grip. That was my point. You can present a very small target and still use two hands.

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I just read one of the links previously posted about the 5 lost secrets. That is a misnomer. I teach all of those except the crush grip. In fact, I'm opposed to the crush grip technique.

I have found that most students who try that grip and cross their thumbs, miss low. The article states that it will eliminate the possibility of "milking" the grip, but that's false. In my experience, it enhances that very thing. Here's why, you can't maintain the crush grip.

Try this, grip the gun as tightly as you possibly can. How long do you think you can hold it this way? A minute? Less? 10 seconds? The truth is that any distraction, no matter how small, will cause most people to relax that grip at least a little. Then, when the shot is necessary, they instinctively tighten the whole hand as they shoot because they are trying to crush the grip. This usually results in pulling the muzzle down dramatically.

Hey, if it's working for you, great. Continue doing it. However, like I said before, there is no one correct way and all have some issues. I choose to use the grip that is going to get me the best hits.

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Sorry, I really can't tell how many hands you are using from the video, even when I blow up a screenshot.

I'll have to experiment some more, but when I just tried two hands while I was hidden behind a hallway corner, it just didn't work. Use of the support hand was very uncomfortable, unnatural, and very hard for me to use while exposing only a very small (one eye) portion of my head around the corner. Even when I did have a two hand grip in this position, the support hand was in a very weak position, offering little real support.

It seems to me I'd waste too much time trying to get my grip in a position like this. Since my one-handed shot is already pretty good, I think I'd prefer to work on that. Seems like it would provide more shooting opportunities, quicker.

But I'll give it some more effort, see if I can make it work.

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Learning something new always involves going out of your comfort zone and this includes "muscle memory". When I first re-learned proper grip, several years ago, it was difficult, but after becoming familiar with it, I would never look back. It is now very natural to hold it that way and I could never imagine going back to the old way and it has vastly improved my scores at IDPA. Of course I had a professional trainer that forced me to change. When I now train others, I've noticed that everyone's hands are different, so there can be minor variations in grip.
Add in the PROPER amount of lockup on wrists, elbows and shoulders and your slow and rapid fire groups will shrink considerably. Your point of aim could also shift closer to the bullseye. A lot of people find it was them and not the sights that were off.

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I looked online at the talon grips and they had great reviews in general, however the reviews for the shield say that they do not stay adhered after a few uses. Something about the way the back piece is designed. Anyone have this happen?

I've had the original design rubberized Talon grips on my 9mm Shield for 3 months. Weekly range sessions of 150-250 rounds each and daily carry--they are still in place and look good as new so far.

They have just recently redesigned the grips for the Shield, and part of that reason I think is the backstrap area issue where they had the tabs that have to meet together, leaving more possible places for the adhesive to weaken.

Ok thanks for the info. I was going to call them on my lunch break and ask about it anyway. I wonder if Amazon would have the new design or the old one, I can get them faster with prime but don't want to end up with the old design.

I would go direct with Talon--they were pretty fast getting them to me...and they don't charge shipping (heck, it's in a regular-sized mailing envelope).

Yep, I understand this, and agree. I've been using the two-handed grip as described by @Rastoff, and shown in the video by Jerry Miculek, in all of my range practice when using two hands.

Perhaps I just need more practice, or to make adjustments, but I'm finding using the two-hand grip to be awkward and weak when trying to shoot around a corner while keeping most of my body/head hidden. OTOH, using one hand grip I can easily shoot around the corner. My one-hand grip shooting at the range has been surprisingly good. I want to be prepared for times in a real incident when I can't use two hands.

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Thanks, that's what I'm going to do. Spoke to someone at Talon about the redesign and they will ship out tomorrow.

Also chele519 read my post up higher with the pics the skateboard tape wont come off. Just make sure you clean very well before you put them on weather you use the talons or make your own. i bought the talons to use as a stencil because they were on sale. but my originals havnt worn or started to peel at all. Best of luck!!

Thanks I was going to try the skateboard tape but read that it is really rough, for iwb I didn't want something that rough so am going with the rubber grips instead

Good discussion!!

What needs to be said has already been said. Gripping can be standardized for all people but many will have to make minor modifications to accommodate their own hands. I've standardized my personal grip but sometimes revert back to the way I was taught those many years ago. I noticed no difference in my abilities. I guess it's all in how comfortable & stable the grip is at the time. Sometimes it's as simple as "some days I feel like a nut - some days I don't". Whatever works.

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One thing is for certain, in a gunfight, I'm selecting Jerry Mucilek, Rastoff and Bob O., to be on my side. :-)

Context is key. Are we discussing merely "shooting" or developing skill at "fighting" with a gun? I'm approaching the issue from the perspective of defense/combat rather than range shooting or sporting competitions. There is a huge difference between them despite the frequently seen statements to the contrary. Everyone must start somewhere and develop base fundamental skills, but I think it prudent to build a foundation using techniques, acquiring skill and from a perspective in line with the ultimate goal.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/tra...or-a-gunfight/

WILSON DEFENSE JOURNAL: Lose of fine motor skill during critical defense incidents- Rob Pincus

...

yes the skateboard tape is probably too rough for carry. I missed that part.
let me know how you like the rubber ones. I was curious about them and wondered how they felt and if they gave good "traction" on the grip.

I am very interested in not only becoming very proficient in the basics of handgun shooting, but also in combat focus training, which I will need if/when I come under attack.

I particularly liked the How to Train for the Gunfight provided in your first link.

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I like your attitude. I wish more had the drive to work out of their comfort zone a little and practice what's needed rather than just what's comfortable.

Even so, especially with barricade shooting, I'd work on what is already working for you first. One hand shooting can be very stable if you use the barricade for support. Yes, I'm using two hands, which demonstrates that it can be done, but you don't have to.

The trick is to just use your normal grip. Rather than step to look out from the barricade, lean. If possible, use a video camera like I did. This will help you critique yourself.

I don't think the two can be separated.

You're on the right path. Keep it up and you'll reach your goal.

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OK, after some experimentation, here's what I have learned so far (still a work in progress):

1. Move back away from the covering wall a bit
2. Establish my two-hand grip, but with my arms and gun pointing down
3. Move one leg just outside of the cover, but enough to support me when I quickly lean out/in to check for BGs
4. Then, when I want to fire, lean out (supported by the leg) the bare minimum necessary, quickly bring my arms/gun up to sight level, activate the laser, aim and fire

Still learning, but I feel much more comfortable now just having a tactic that works for me that I can train to.

Thanks @Rastoff for your positive encouragement.

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