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  #1  
Old 11-06-2015, 05:31 PM
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Default Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels

https://store.apextactical.com/WebDi...?categoryId=54

"Accuracy in your Smith & Wesson M&P not what you expected? Not what you think acceptable? That brand name aftermarket 'match grade' barrel not living up to your expectations? Well, Apex has the solution.

Coming soon, the new 9mm Apex Grade Gunsmith Fit or Semi Drop-In replacement barrel for the M&P. The new barrels will be available in either 4.25" or 5.00" versions. The Semi Drop-In version is easily fitted by the end user. For those demanding the most in accuracy from their M&P, the Gunsmith Fit version is the answer and requires installation by a competent gunsmith."

Thoughts?
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:37 PM
Eddie 500 Eddie 500 is offline
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Ill buy one....me wonders why a gunsmith needs to install...
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2015, 07:37 PM
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Ill buy one....me wonders why a gunsmith needs to install...
The same reason a gunsmith needs to install a target barrel in a 1911. It has to fit precisely and tight. A little bit of "slop" in the barrel fit and lockup will manifest itself as sloppy groups down range.

I hope they sell like hot cakes so Apex will expand the line to 40 S&W.
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:10 PM
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Spare me. If you need to change your barrel on your M&P. It ain't the barrel. It's the hand on the pistol.
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llando88 View Post
https://store.apextactical.com/WebDi...?categoryId=54

"Accuracy in your Smith & Wesson M&P not what you expected? Not what you think acceptable? That brand name aftermarket 'match grade' barrel not living up to your expectations? Well, Apex has the solution.

Thoughts?
The M&P is a duty weapon, not a target gun



Mine have all proven to keep 2" groups at the limit of our indoor range. I do not need more than that
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Willcoe View Post
Spare me. If you need to change your barrel on your M&P. It ain't the barrel. It's the hand on the pistol.
I have a 1911, 45 and a Ruger 22/45, that will benchrest 1+ inch groups at 25 yards, but my M&P Pro 9 will only get 4-5 inch groups at that distance, no matter what bullet weight I use. Still think it's the hand?
When I shoot IDPA matches and I get an extra point down, because the shot goes just outside of the perforation, I can't help but wonder if it was me or the gun. If the gun was capable of better groups, I would have my answer. I for one will get the barrel and install it, as soon as it's available.
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Old 11-07-2015, 06:40 PM
pbpvusa pbpvusa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llando88 View Post
https://store.apextactical.com/WebDi...?categoryId=54
Coming soon, the new 9mm Apex Grade Gunsmith Fit or Semi Drop-In replacement barrel for the M&P. The new barrels will be available in either 4.25" or 5.00" versions. The Semi Drop-In version is easily fitted by the end user. For those demanding the most in accuracy from their M&P, the Gunsmith Fit version is the answer and requires installation by a competent gunsmith."

Thoughts?
When I clean my M&P, I can just pop the barrel out and clean it. I am not sure how it would work if gun smith has to fit it, how can I clean the barrel. My gun is in the shop for upgrading the apex kit, will definitely look at this after couple of months.
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Old 11-07-2015, 10:14 PM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Originally Posted by pbpvusa View Post
When I clean my M&P, I can just pop the barrel out and clean it. I am not sure how it would work if gun smith has to fit it, how can I clean the barrel. My gun is in the shop for upgrading the apex kit, will definitely look at this after couple of months.
A fitted barrel can still be removed from the slide.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:11 AM
pyro pyro is offline
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Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
The M&P is a duty weapon, not a target gun



Mine have all proven to keep 2" groups at the limit of our indoor range. I do not need more than that
Yes it's a service gun. Yes the M&P is used in competiton. A lot of people like to improve the performance of their weapon because they enjoy it and because they can. If the only reason I had a S&W was because it was a duty pistol, I wouldn't bother with this forum.
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Old 11-08-2015, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by pyro View Post
Yes it's a service gun. Yes the M&P is used in competiton. A lot of people like to improve the performance of their weapon because they enjoy it and because they can. If the only reason I had a S&W was because it was a duty pistol, I wouldn't bother with this forum.
You wouldn't come here? That would be a loss all the way around.

Are you trying to say that the only reason you come here is to learn about alternative parts for your M&Ps?

I know lots of folks like to swap parts. That is part of the reason for the popularity of the 10-22 and AR style rifles as well.

Llando88, the original poster, asked for thoughts on the new part offering and I gave mine.

How about letting us know your thoughts on the new part offering?
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Willcoe View Post
Spare me. If you need to change your barrel on your M&P. It ain't the barrel. It's the hand on the pistol.
What a load of bunk.

I had 4 other people shoot my FS M&P9 including 3 military guys who were well qualified with a pistol. Every one of us was shooting low-left. Took a trip to S&W to make the gun reasonably accurate. Every other 9mm I own can still outshoot the M&P.
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Old 11-08-2015, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
The M&P is a duty weapon, not a target gun
Mine have all proven to keep 2" groups at the limit of our indoor range. I do not need more than that
What distance are you shooting at? The gun test standards for pistol group sizes are done at 25 yards. If you're getting 2" groups at that distance with an m&p, with a factory barrel, you have a one in a million.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:03 PM
pyro pyro is offline
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Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
You wouldn't come here? That would be a loss all the way around.

Are you trying to say that the only reason you come here is to learn about alternative parts for your M&Ps?

I know lots of folks like to swap parts. That is part of the reason for the popularity of the 10-22 and AR style rifles as well.

Llando88, the original poster, asked for thoughts on the new part offering and I gave mine.
How about letting us know your thoughts on the new part offering?
I target shoot all my guns regardless of what they may or may have been intended for. I have alternate barrels for my Glocks and yes they are more accurate at the range. They are also perceived to be duty guns. I suppose I could say target shooting is not their purpose, but what fun would there be in that.

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Old 11-08-2015, 03:35 PM
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What a load of bunk.

I had 4 other people shoot my FS M&P9 including 3 military guys who were well qualified with a pistol. Every one of us was shooting low-left. Took a trip to S&W to make the gun reasonably accurate. Every other 9mm I own can still outshoot the M&P.
I'm wondering where it hits now that it's back from S&W.
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Old 11-08-2015, 04:02 PM
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I'm wondering where it hits now that it's back from S&W.
I've only had it shot by two other shooters. Now it just shoots low. But at least it's low-center.
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Old 11-08-2015, 04:48 PM
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I hope Apex sells a lot of these and the company does well. Even so, it's not necessary. The percentage of people who are good enough shots to actually use this accuracy improvement, is very small. In fact, that level of shooter is probably looking for a different gun anyway.

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I've only had it shot by two other shooters. Now it just shoots low. But at least it's low-center.
[sarcasm]I'm glad S&W was able to fix this for you. I'll bet that as your experience with the gun increases, those low shots will move up toward the center. I'm sure the barrel just needs to be broken in and will get better with time. At least that's been what I've learned through conversing with hundreds of members here.[/sarcasm]

Seriously, have any of these shooters shot it from a rest?
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Old 11-08-2015, 05:19 PM
robert1804 robert1804 is offline
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My M&P 9 FS has only fair accuracy. 3" groups at 15 yards rested and 5" at 25 yards rested. My 9mm Shield is actually better at 15 yards. I found some light pitting in one groove and S&W said to send it in. If they replace the barrel, I'm hoping for better accuracy. I'm not inclined to pour money into this gun. I have a Beretta M9 and a CZ75 B, both in 9mm that are 2" or slightly better guns at 25 yards rested with the right ammo. Their $150 or so cost difference is worth it to me. I'll keep the M&P simply because it is such a hoot to shoot.
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Old 11-08-2015, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I hope Apex sells a lot of these and the company does well. Even so, it's not necessary. The percentage of people who are good enough shots to actually use this accuracy improvement, is very small. In fact, that level of shooter is probably looking for a different gun anyway.

[sarcasm]I'm glad S&W was able to fix this for you. I'll bet that as your experience with the gun increases, those low shots will move up toward the center. I'm sure the barrel just needs to be broken in and will get better with time. At least that's been what I've learned through conversing with hundreds of members here.[/sarcasm]

Seriously, have any of these shooters shot it from a rest?
No, never shot from a rest. My M&P has a 12 o'clock sight hold to hit anything in the 9 ring from 10 yards which is nothing like my other 9's. Even with the 12 o'clock hold, tight groups are difficult.
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:01 PM
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No, never shot from a rest.
Then any comment on accuracy is only anecdotal.

Do you think this new barrel from Apex will make a difference in your gun?
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:53 PM
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Then any comment on accuracy is only anecdotal.

Do you think this new barrel from Apex will make a difference in your gun?
Of course you are right. It would be anecdotal. I worked in a lab all my life so I like to see data. It would be reasonable to assume Apex would do some bench rest comparisons and report them before they released their barrel. To often however, those kind of tests are left to other people to report. If they didn't release any data I wouldn't be in any hurry to purchase one.
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Old 11-08-2015, 08:11 PM
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I'm sure Apex will make some kind of accuracy claim. On their website they are claiming sub 2" groups at 50 yards and sub 1" groups at 25 yards. This is indeed better than what S&W says their barrels will do.
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Old 11-08-2015, 08:22 PM
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I'm sure Apex will make some kind of accuracy claim. On their website they are claiming sub 2" groups at 50 yards and sub 1" groups at 25 yards. This is indeed better than what S&W says their barrels will do.
Wow, if thats true, thats impressive.
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Old 11-08-2015, 08:26 PM
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Then any comment on accuracy is only anecdotal.

Do you think this new barrel from Apex will make a difference in your gun?
Anecdotal perhaps. But this is the ONLY gun I've owned or shot that requires an unorthodox hold.

I really don't care how good an Apex trigger or barrel may be. Nobody should have to spend an additional $100-$200 in upgrades just to have a gun that's reasonably accurate for simple, casual plinking.

My bone-stock, unmodified Glock 19, CZ75B, CZ SP01 Phantom, BHP, LC9 and Shield are spot-on with a center hold. Doesn't matter if I'm feeding them good ammo or **** ammo. Even my friends M&P 40 shoots great with a center hold. I've never had to shoot these guns from a rest for them to prove their accuracy either.

I know for a fact that S&W is more than capable of producing accurate firearms. I've owned several over the years and will continue to buy their products. Heck my EDC is usually either a Shield or a 637. Unfortunately, my M&P 9 has been the most disappointing gun of the lot.
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Old 11-08-2015, 08:47 PM
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Anecdotal perhaps. But this is the ONLY gun I've owned or shot that requires an unorthodox hold.

I really don't care how good an Apex trigger or barrel may be. Nobody should have to spend an additional $100-$200 in upgrades just to have a gun that's reasonably accurate for simple, casual plinking.

My bone-stock, unmodified Glock 19, CZ75B, CZ SP01 Phantom, BHP, LC9 and Shield are spot-on with a center hold. Doesn't matter if I'm feeding them good ammo or **** ammo. Even my friends M&P 40 shoots great with a center hold. I've never had to shoot these guns from a rest for them to prove their accuracy either.

I know for a fact that S&W is more than capable of producing accurate firearms. I've owned several over the years and will continue to buy their products. Heck my EDC is usually either a Shield or a 637. Unfortunately, my M&P 9 has been the most disappointing gun of the lot.
I hear what you saying. The combined sum of ones experience is meaningful and relevant.
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Old 11-08-2015, 08:56 PM
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As I am getting close to buying an M&P C.O.R.E., I am starting to wonder if it's barrel is an improvement over an M&P stock barrel. If its not, that would be a deal killer.
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Old 11-08-2015, 09:09 PM
ghoffman ghoffman is offline
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I enjoy a fine weapon. I don't care if its designed for duty/carry or what. Who cares - some of us seem to think there is something wrong with trying to get the best M&P possible, even if I'm not good enough to use it! I would not pass up the chance to get a really nice car - even if I can't ever even think of driving in a NASCAR race! Why is this so hard to understand? You don't HAVE to buy an Apex barrel just because they sell them. Why would anyone care if I have one on my gun? How many of us have a big diesel pick up that we drive back and forth to work???
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Old 11-08-2015, 09:20 PM
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As I am getting close to buying an M&P C.O.R.E., I am starting to wonder if it's barrel is an improvement over an M&P stock barrel. If its not, that would be a deal killer.
The C.O.R.E. has the same barrel as the others.

This following thread-link, about Apex barrels started two years ago and is still going. It includes commentary by Randy Lee, of Apex, about the new barrels. It's a very long thread, but very informative.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....el-M-amp-P-9mm
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Old 11-08-2015, 10:51 PM
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I know one thing, I shoot at 25 yards metal plates. I start at 12" and go down to 3" on my range. In my back yard I have an 8" plate at 20 yards. With the stock barrel the 8" plate at 20 yards you really really have to concentrate to make sure you hit it and then you will still miss easily.
I put a SL barrel in it and now I can hit the 8" plate a lot more regularly and easier.
Is it a target pistol no, but still like to be in an 8" plate at 25 yards. If you are putting groups in a 4" cluster than that 8" plate gets to be a lot harder to hit. So I agree that after market barrels are better in the accuracy department.

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Old 11-08-2015, 10:59 PM
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I haven't fired my M&P Pro 9mm yet, but am hopeful that accuracy will exceed my capabilities as a shooter. I load my own ammo so can tinker some. I load mainly124 grain FMJ. Any suggestions on a bullet weight to wring the most out of the Pro?
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Old 11-08-2015, 11:57 PM
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...
... i just had my barrels coated too.
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstanfield103 View Post
I know one thing, I shoot at 25 yards metal plates. I start at 12" and go down to 3" on my range. In my back yard I have an 8" plate at 20 yards. With the stock barrel the 8" plate at 20 yards you really really have to concentrate to make sure you hit it and then you will still miss easily.
I put a SL barrel in it and now I can hit the 8" plate a lot more regularly and easier.
Is it a target pistol no, but still like to be in an 8" plate at 25 yards. If you are putting groups in a 4" cluster than that 8" plate gets to be a lot harder to hit. So I agree that after market barrels are better in the accuracy department.
I find myself faltering on getting the M&P C.O.R.E. The look and the ergonomics are great, but apparently the the barrel is not. This seems odd to me as the cost is high. Storm Lake barrels are considerably higher in cost than the Lone Wolf that you can get for a Glock. An Apex barrel is probably going to be costly.
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Old 11-09-2015, 04:52 AM
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Pyro,
I have never tried the Lone Wolf barrels, but Storm Lake always seems to be accurate.
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:23 PM
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Replacing a factory barrel with a aftermarket drop in barrel on a carry gun is a waste of time and money.

Been there done that. Didn't make a difference.

An aftermarket fitted barrel properly fitted might make a difference. But is it worth it?
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Old 11-10-2015, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Replacing a factory barrel with a aftermarket drop in barrel on a carry gun is a waste of time and money.

Been there done that. Didn't make a difference.

An aftermarket fitted barrel properly fitted might make a difference. But is it worth it?
It absolutely agree that is a waste of time on carry gun, but I absolutely disagree that it is a waste of time on a range gun. Your experience may vary.
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Old 11-10-2015, 01:33 AM
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It absolutely agree that is a waste of time on carry gun, but I absolutely disagree that it is a waste of time on a range gun. Your experience may vary.
I never said anything about range guns. But even on a range gun, if the barrel isn't properly fitted, it won't make much difference.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:36 AM
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My Core9 will hold a sub 2 inch group at 15 meters but opens up to +3 at 25 meters. My 357 Sig full size will shoot a sub 2 inch group at 15 meters AND a sub 2 inch group at 25 meters. This is sitting at a solid bench with a steady rest. I've done this a bunch and am thinking seriously of having the 357 Sig slide milled for the RMR.
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Old 11-10-2015, 03:58 PM
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My Core9 will hold a sub 2 inch group at 15 meters but opens up to +3 at 25 meters. My 357 Sig full size will shoot a sub 2 inch group at 15 meters AND a sub 2 inch group at 25 meters. This is sitting at a solid bench with a steady rest. I've done this a bunch and am thinking seriously of having the 357 Sig slide milled for the RMR.
I try to get as much information as possible and there are numerous blogs comparing the M&P accuracy to other guns. It is not as accurate (25yards) as other some other guns. It does not measure up to a Glock. Some people are complaining about groups (bench) +4. There seems to be some contention on this forum about an M&P being anything but a duty gun. This information is useful however and I think for now I am going to be content with my little Shield. No full sized M&P for me. There are better choices out there.
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Old 11-10-2015, 11:26 PM
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Anecdotal perhaps. But this is the ONLY gun I've owned or shot that requires an unorthodox hold.
The M&P does not require an unorthodox hold.

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I really don't care how good an Apex trigger or barrel may be. Nobody should have to spend an additional $100-$200 in upgrades just to have a gun that's reasonably accurate for simple, casual plinking.
I completely agree. The M&P does not require an upgrade to shoot accurately. I know many who do just fine with the stock gun.

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My bone-stock, unmodified Glock 19, CZ75B, CZ SP01 Phantom, BHP, LC9 and Shield are spot-on with a center hold. Doesn't matter if I'm feeding them good ammo or **** ammo.
How you shoot a different gun is not definitive. It does let us know that you have at least the ability to shoot well. That doesn't mean you'll shoot well with every gun. I shoot my 1911 better than my M&P. That doesn't mean my M&P isn't accurate. It only means I don't shoot it as well as the 1911. From a rest, both guns are very accurate. The 1911 is better than the M&P, but that has nothing to do with how I shoot it.

The rest helps to eliminate the human factor. Shooting while standing introduces many gross errors. Whether the inaccuracies are you or the gun is unknown if you can't eliminate your influence.

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Even my friends M&P 40 shoots great with a center hold.
Well, that should tell you something. Why can you shoot his OK, but not yours? At first blush you might think it's your gun. Well, obviously you already think that. It certainly is a possibility. Alas, until you shoot it from a rest, you don't know that's true. A difference in triggers would account for your issues.

What always amazes me in circumstances like this, is how hard people resist shooting from a rest. Why not just do it?
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:21 AM
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The M&P does not require an unorthodox hold.



I completely agree. The M&P does not require an upgrade to shoot accurately. I know many who do just fine with the stock gun.



How you shoot a different gun is not definitive. It does let us know that you have at least the ability to shoot well. That doesn't mean you'll shoot well with every gun. I shoot my 1911 better than my M&P. That doesn't mean my M&P isn't accurate. It only means I don't shoot it as well as the 1911. From a rest, both guns are very accurate. The 1911 is better than the M&P, but that has nothing to do with how I shoot it.



The rest helps to eliminate the human factor. Shooting while standing introduces many gross errors. Whether the inaccuracies are you or the gun is unknown if you can't eliminate your influence.



Well, that should tell you something. Why can you shoot his OK, but not yours? At first blush you might think it's your gun. Well, obviously you already think that. It certainly is a possibility. Alas, until you shoot it from a rest, you don't know that's true. A difference in triggers would account for your issues.



What always amazes me in circumstances like this, is how hard people resist shooting from a rest. Why not just do it?

What always amazes me is that people are not capable of accepting the fact that MAYBE S&W let a gun slip by their QC that shouldn't have. Maybe I am the problem. The fact is that this is the ONLY pistol I've shot that requires a strange hold and I do not care to spend another dime on trying to make it better.

If you want to buy or send me a rest to prove you're right so be it.
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:42 AM
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What always amazes me is that people are not capable of accepting the fact that MAYBE S&W let a gun slip by their QC that shouldn't have. Maybe I am the problem.
Maybe you missed it. I did indeed say that it could be the gun. All I said, all I've ever said on this subject, is that a proper test should be done before deciding what the inaccuracy source is. Ammo, gun, shooter, weather, etc., can all cause accuracy issues.

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If you want to buy or send me a rest to prove you're right so be it.
Buy you a rest? What exactly do you think I'm suggesting? Any bag, box, rock, table or anything like that can be used to rest the gun on. If you want me to buy you a rest, OK. Send me your address and I'll send you a bag that you can then fill with dirt (wouldn't make sense to send the dirt, that should be easy to find).

Here is the correct way to use this rest:


Resting the heel of the hands and wrists on the bag generally is more stable than trying to rest the gun on the bag. However, some rests, like a box, might do better by resting the gun on it.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:27 AM
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Greetings,

Since this thread involves something I designed, I thought it wise to dispel some myth, conjecture and speculation. Rather than have forum members try to sift through a loooong thread on another forum, I thought I could post some relevant data here.

The interweb is chocked full of complaints about the M&P 9 accuracy (or lack thereof). Some reports I found to be valid while others were shooter induced errors. In my case, my personal M&P 5" would shoot about a 24" group at 50 yards off sandbags. To me, that is unacceptable. Period. So I spent the past few years trying to understand why some M&Ps shot acceptably well while others were beyond dismal.

Someone in an earlier thread stated that the M&P is a duty gun and not a target gun. My question is: Why can't they be one in the same? I believe it is a perpetual misconception that the polymer framed striker fired pistol cannot go toe to toe with some of the best custom pistols like Les Baers, Browns, Wilsons and the like. I have the test targets from 25 and 50 yards to prove it. I have several targets from different guns that measure sub half inch at 25. The best one measures .313" center to center for 5 shots, and it is a police officer's duty gun. That is what a gunsmith fit barrel will do. If engineered correctly and properly fitted there should be no compromise to functional reliability.

Our Semi Drop-In should not be interpreted to be in the same class as a drop-in barrel made by other manufacturers. My testing of aftermarket drop-in barrels mirrors what others have found- little to no reduction in group size.

The hood length of our barrel is left about .002" longer than nominal slide dimensions, and the bottom lug has a fitting pad that may require fitting depending on your individual gun's vertical slide to frame tolerance. Worst case scenario is that it will take about 15 minutes with a sharp pillar file to fit hood length and bottom lug to your gun. In my testing the SDI barrels shot under 1.5" at 25 yards with all the ammo we tested. The best groups so far have been with Fiocchi 115 gr jhp, Magtech Guardian Gold 124 gr jhp and PRVI 147 gr jhp - data shows that our barrel will shoot the spectrum of bullet weights well provided that the projectile is of quality manufacture.

I do not believe everyone needs our barrel. Like all aftermarket parts it is personal choice.
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Old 11-11-2015, 01:41 AM
Danimal300 Danimal300 is offline
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I shoot 2011 pistols as well as competition 1911s. The accuracy and precision of those guns is phenomenal. But you pay a premium for it. Competition tuned magazines for an STI are $150 each.

So putting a barrel into an M&P core does not look that bad, if they can bring the accuracy more in line with similar competition pistols. I have to say I have been a little underwhelmed with my M&P pro series core 5" accuracy. I bought this gun for competition only, but have not really been using it because I do not have the confidence that I need in it. Maybe the APEX barrel and trigger will change that.
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Old 11-11-2015, 06:18 AM
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Degree of accuracy is subjective: To me, if I can bench rest and get 2 inches at 25 yards, that is good enough for me. For others, 4-5 inches is good enough. Some of my guns will get 2 inches, but my M&P Pro 9 and Compact 9 won't come close to that.
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Old 11-12-2015, 06:33 PM
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I have been lurking on thus site for a while . This thread has my attention.
For full disclosure I have been a beta tester of APEX products for some time. I also want to note I paid for the barrel.
I am the police officer Randy talked about running his barrel on my duty MP9. The accuracy of the pistol is much greater than my ability to shoot. Who wouldn't like to be able to shoot groups that small free standing.
I have had the barrel for a few months. I can say that the pistol has been used in a Frank Proctor class shortly after getting it. I shot about 1600 rounds that weekend. There was no malfunction of any kind. Since I had received it I have over 5000 rounds through it everything from Federal HST to my reloads. There hasn't been a problem with function on anything. Right now I have sent it back to APEX to see what kind of accuracy it gets with that many rounds.
Some people have commented on wether or not it's worth buying. I think it is. Is it cheap nope. However the accuracy I have is confidence building. I know if I missed it is my fault. Is it for everyone? I guess each person has to decide if it worth it. I am at a point where I want accurate AND reliable pistol.
I am lucky to have a progressive policy at work so I carry it on duty but that is a topic for another thread..
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Old 11-12-2015, 07:50 PM
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Great couple of posts - thanks! We have had several discussions on this forum over the past couple of months about what makes a gun accurate. I'm not asking what makes a shooter accurate, but what makes the gun accurate - Barrel length? Twist? ammo? Sights, sight radius? If someone can talk about what they had to change it would go a long way to answering this question! . A few of the guys here know something about this and the rest us (me!) are just guessing. So, what has Apex done to make the M&P so much more accurate and when can I buy one?
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Lee View Post
In my case, my personal M&P 5" would shoot about a 24" group at 50 yards off sandbags. To me, that is unacceptable.
If that's not a typo, it's not just unacceptable, your gun is broken. 24" groups when using a sand bag is the worst I've ever heard of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Lee View Post
Someone in an earlier thread stated that the M&P is a duty gun and not a target gun. My question is: Why can't they be one in the same?
I've said this myself. They can be one in the same.

Please understand this is not said to say that a duty gun shouldn't be accurate. It is merely said to bring the reality of how this gun is manufactured. The trigger is not tuned to be a thing of wonder and beauty. It's built stiff on purpose and that doesn't translate to a fine target gun. The fitment of parts is intended to make a gun with acceptable accuracy and still have interchangeable parts.

There is no reason a duty gun can't be accurate. Actually, the term repeatable is more applicable to this discussion.

With a quality barrel, the gun will be repeatable. It's the lock up in the slide that makes the difference in both precision and accuracy. If the barrel doesn't lock up the same every time, it won't be repeatable because the sights will be aligned differently with the bore every time. So, the only way to really get a very repeatable, accurate gun, is to have the barrel/chamber fitted to the slide. This reduces the functionality as an interchangeable part gun.

Of course even as a defensive tool, accuracy is important. You want to know that if you do your part, the gun will put rounds where you want them.
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy Lee View Post
Greetings,

Since this thread involves something I designed, I thought it wise to dispel some myth, conjecture and speculation. Rather than have forum members try to sift through a loooong thread on another forum, I thought I could post some relevant data here.

The interweb is chocked full of complaints about the M&P 9 accuracy (or lack thereof). Some reports I found to be valid while others were shooter induced errors. In my case, my personal M&P 5" would shoot about a 24" group at 50 yards off sandbags. To me, that is unacceptable. Period. So I spent the past few years trying to understand why some M&Ps shot acceptably well while others were beyond dismal.

Someone in an earlier thread stated that the M&P is a duty gun and not a target gun. My question is: Why can't they be one in the same? I believe it is a perpetual misconception that the polymer framed striker fired pistol cannot go toe to toe with some of the best custom pistols like Les Baers, Browns, Wilsons and the like. I have the test targets from 25 and 50 yards to prove it. I have several targets from different guns that measure sub half inch at 25. The best one measures .313" center to center for 5 shots, and it is a police officer's duty gun. That is what a gunsmith fit barrel will do. If engineered correctly and properly fitted there should be no compromise to functional reliability.

Our Semi Drop-In should not be interpreted to be in the same class as a drop-in barrel made by other manufacturers. My testing of aftermarket drop-in barrels mirrors what others have found- little to no reduction in group size.

The hood length of our barrel is left about .002" longer than nominal slide dimensions, and the bottom lug has a fitting pad that may require fitting depending on your individual gun's vertical slide to frame tolerance. Worst case scenario is that it will take about 15 minutes with a sharp pillar file to fit hood length and bottom lug to your gun. In my testing the SDI barrels shot under 1.5" at 25 yards with all the ammo we tested. The best groups so far have been with Fiocchi 115 gr jhp, Magtech Guardian Gold 124 gr jhp and PRVI 147 gr jhp - data shows that our barrel will shoot the spectrum of bullet weights well provided that the projectile is of quality manufacture.

I do not believe everyone needs our barrel. Like all aftermarket parts it is personal choice.

If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:42 AM
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If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?
If the moderators feel I am overstepping my bounds, then I apologize and will remove my posts.

My intention is not to promote my products, as I believe their results speak for themselves.

That being said,I would be happy to contribute to this forum.

I have studied the accuracy issue within the M&P for several years. I have also scanned this forum as well as others looking for data and explanations as others have. And to this date, no-one on the internet has been able to explain why some M&Ps will shoot acceptably while others have not. More questions surface like: "Why did the factory go to a 1:10 twist barrel when according to others, should never have been used in the 9mm?" or "Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

I am more than willing to share my understanding of this topic, but I will not do so here if the forum moderators feel it inappropriate or consider it self promoting.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:11 AM
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If the moderators feel I am overstepping my bounds, then I apologize and will remove my posts.

My intention is not to promote my products, as I believe their results speak for themselves.

That being said,I would be happy to contribute to this forum.

I have studied the accuracy issue within the M&P for several years. I have also scanned this forum as well as others looking for data and explanations as others have. And to this date, no-one on the internet has been able to explain why some M&Ps will shoot acceptably while others have not. More questions surface like: "Why did the factory go to a 1:10 twist barrel when according to others, should never have been used in the 9mm?" or "Why doesn't my M&P shoot groups as well as my Sig/CZ/HK etc?"

I am more than willing to share my understanding of this topic, but I will not do so here if the forum moderators feel it inappropriate or consider it self promoting.
I am not a moderator but have been a member for quite some time now. Randy's work and obvious knowledge are very well respected. We will all probably learn something from having him participate on this forum. For that reason, I'd hate to see him pull his posts and move on.

Perhaps there was a bit of self promoting going on but I'm ok with that if the guy is contributing to the overall body of knowledge on the forum.

This is just my opinion. I respect others may feel differently.
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Old 11-13-2015, 02:08 AM
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Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Silverton Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
If you're going to promote your products here, don't you think you should donate to this forum?

How much word of mouth advertising here has helped your sales?
That was uncalled for.
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