Today while firing a 9mm Shield at the indoor range I experienced two incidences where the gun discharged a second time immediately after a single trigger pull. I have fired over a thousand rounds through a Shield and have never had this happen before. The ammo was factory Winchester 115 gr FMJ. The first time it happened was after firing about 75 rounds through the gun on this trip to the range and I assumed it was somehow related to some way I had manipulated the trigger. After a few more rounds it happened a second time and this time I'm pretty confident I did not cause it. In fact I couldn't fire that fast if I tried. Until I sort this out the gun is back in the closet. Any suggestions?
Immediately call customer service and get that gun back to Smith. Not only is it potentially dangerous, there is a potential legal liability in a gun that will fire more than once per trigger pull.
Listen to epj, send that thing back and let them figure out what is causing the problem and see if they need to do a recall to fix others that may have the same problem.
I would bet there is just some fouling in the trigger group area. I would field strip the gun (or go further if you have the skill) and flush out the internals with the solvent of your choice, followed by some compressed air. You can use brake cleaner if compressed air is not available. Lube and re-assemble.
BTW, there is nothing illegal in having a gun malfunction, and this is not that rare of a malfunction.
I very vividly recall the ATF prosecuting a guy with a 1911 that went full auto at a public range. I think the charges were eventually dropped, but not without a great deal of legal hassle.
You have told the world that some really bad malfunction is occurring, one that might endanger people. Best to have the factory fix it to prevent any future accident that you might have to answer for. 'Fix' it yourself and then it happens again and you might have to explain to a criminal or civil court what your qualifications are to fix such a malfunction.
I very vividly recall the ATF prosecuting a guy with a 1911 that went full auto at a public range. I think the charges were eventually dropped, but not without a great deal of legal hassle.
I have heard others make similar claims, but have never been shown any data or other evidence to back up the assertion.
Last edited by Warren Sear; 01-13-2016 at 05:14 PM.
I would follow the advice above about giving the trigger internals a good cleaning and give it another try before sending it in. The only way I see a legal issue is if the gun had been tampered with or modified in an attempt to make it fire "full auto".
I bought a Shield about a month ago and this has happened to me a couple times in about 300 rounds. I thought I did as I'm new to pistol shooting but I will monitor. As long as it's pointing down range it doesn't bother me too much.
Do you know where the second round went? What would have happened if the disconnect completely failed and you dumped the mag? Personally, I would not fire that gun again until the cause of the malfunction had been positively determined and repaired.
Even if the disconnector were completely removed from the gun, it will only fire once, and then a stoppage will occur. Try it, and you will see. The disconnector is not there to prevent automatic fire.
Last edited by Warren Sear; 01-14-2016 at 04:09 PM.
I very vividly recall the ATF prosecuting a guy with a 1911 that went full auto at a public range. I think the charges were eventually dropped, but not without a great deal of legal hassle.
I'm gonna guess something about the word "knowingly" caused a hitch in the prosecution's getalong . . .
My guess about the malfunction is that the firing pin is sticking out of the breech face occasionally, not retracting after firing . . .
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Last edited by Muss Muggins; 01-14-2016 at 04:14 PM.
You might want to pull that firing pin and give the whole channel a real good cleaning. Chances are somewhere along the line you fired some dirtier than normal ammo and some of the residue built up in there or dirt flew in off a dropped mag. They always made us drop ours in the dirt when qualifying many times.
That said, I just pulled the one on my Glock out for the first time after 18 years of quarterly qualifications. Pretty clean actually to the point I was surprised. Still, you never know what can end up in something after a while. It's worth a look and the first place I would look for that issue.
It is best to have S&W look at your pistol, because there have been reports of the ATF prosecuting folks for continuing to use a firearm with a tendency to fire more than once per trigger pull. IIRC simple possession of a firearm considered capable of Automatic Fire by someone without the correct license is a 20 year Federal Felony, so this isn't any "slap on the wrist" offense and the ATF doesn't have to consider a malfunction as an excuse. In a small handgun such as the Shield there is also the potential loss of control of the firearm to consider, you could end up getting shot by your own handgun. Finally with any firearm that is exhibiting this malfunction the potential for an Out of Battery firing event is increased enormously and those types of events are NEVER fun for the shooter.
I'd have to give my opinion, which is I REALLY doubt ATF is going to chase and prosecute the owner of a brand new firearm that has a defect. He doesn't WANT the pistol to double fire and he didn't modify it to make it that way. The streets in big cities are full of people with illegal automatic weapons. The police and ATF have their hands full with them.
Even if the disconnector were completely removed from the gun, it will only fire once, and then a stoppage will occur. Try it, and you will see. The disconnector is not there to prevent automatic fire.
The disconnector cannot be removed in any M&P pistol. It is milled into the slide and isn't really a disconnector. It's more of a sear reset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins
My guess about the malfunction is that the firing pin is sticking out of the breech face occasionally, not retracting after firing . . .
If it isn't a user issue, this is the most likely cause. Dirt that builds up in the firing pin hole could cause this.
I just pulled my firing pin out because it looked dirty and found some metal junk inside the firing pin channel glad I looked at i this is my wifes gun
I did clean out the firing pin channel once (and it needed it badly), but was told by Smith CS that it was not considered "user serviceable", so I should send it to them if there were issues.
A lot, if not most folks here would feel comfortable doing that (the 1911 crew does it a lot), but if you are not comfortable, it is better to send it to S&W or an authorized gunsmith.
It is best to have S&W look at your pistol, because there have been reports of the ATF prosecuting folks for continuing to use a firearm with a tendency to fire more than once per trigger pull. IIRC simple possession of a firearm considered capable of Automatic Fire by someone without the correct license is a 20 year Federal Felony, so this isn't any "slap on the wrist" offense and the ATF doesn't have to consider a malfunction as an excuse. In a small handgun such as the Shield there is also the potential loss of control of the firearm to consider, you could end up getting shot by your own handgun. Finally with any firearm that is exhibiting this malfunction the potential for an Out of Battery firing event is increased enormously and those types of events are NEVER fun for the shooter.
I have been on a quest on this forum to have someone explain how a tilting breach automatic, 1911, Hi Power, M&P, etc., can fire out of battery. No takers so far. Why? It simply cannot happen. John Browning knew what he was doing to design a mechanism that kept the firing pin hole away from the primer face until the barrel and its locking lugs lock into engagement with the slide. I'm reasonably sure the OP's Shield doubled because the sear engagement didn't hold as the slide slammed forward into battery, a common problem that punches multiple poorly aimed holes in targets.
Dang I was about to buy a shield , good thing they were all sold out.
No matter what you buy someone will have had a bad experience or issue with a particular sample. I have two shields and have never had any issues. If you like the Shield just buy it and I'm sure you will be happy.
Last edited by Hunter8282; 01-21-2016 at 09:14 AM.
My regular shooting partner has a TZ Witness 9mm that he has purchased a 45acp and 22RF top end for. Using the same lower everything functions perfectly. When shooting it with the 45acp top end and only when I am doing the shooting it will occasionally double. The trigger reset varies and I admit that as primarily a double action revolver and Shield shooter I lightly ride the trigger as it moves forward to reset and I believe that this is sufficient trigger pressure to fire this particular pistol. When I consciously focus on fully getting off of the trigger this doesn't happen. If I try to run a plate rack fast it doubles often.
Just offering this as a possibility.
I have been on a quest on this forum to have someone explain how a tilting breach automatic, 1911, Hi Power, M&P, etc., can fire out of battery. No takers so far. Why? It simply cannot happen. John Browning knew what he was doing to design a mechanism that kept the firing pin hole away from the primer face until the barrel and its locking lugs lock into engagement with the slide. I'm reasonably sure the OP's Shield doubled because the sear engagement didn't hold as the slide slammed forward into battery, a common problem that punches multiple poorly aimed holes in targets.
I don't disagree with your statement that the most likely cause is a sear failing to hold as the slide comes fully forward, it really is the most likely cause for this. However there is a remote potential for a stuck firing pin triggering a flush or high primer as the cartridge is fed into the chamber with the barrel rising up the breech face. In addition there have been pictures posted on this forum of blown out case heads where it is very obvious an OOB event took place due to the location of the blow out, so in spite of John Browning's brilliance with the 1911 you just cannot assume that an OOB event can't ever happen. Because they can and have happened and they are never pleasant for the person holding the pistol.
Today received notice that the subject Shield is being shipped back to me. Called S&W for results. They cleaned, polished, and test fired the gun but offered no explanation of what may have caused the double fire. Not very comforting.
If S&W examined the Shield and found it in normal condition, I'd be inclined to look at a possible (albeit unintentional and unrecognized) shooter influence.
It's not like they'd have a cavalier approach to a possible safety issue.
Also, they've produced and sold more than a million Shield pistols, and a lot more pistols of the general M&P family.
When you shoot, do you try and hold the trigger back and only release it to "reset" point for the next intentional shot? Or, do you release the trigger and allow it to recover, and let your finger move off the trigger, between shots?
FWIW, over the years I've worked as a firearms instructor I've observed quite a number of folks who experienced unintentional discharges when shooting various pistols.
More often than not, it wasn't a mechanical gun problem, but it involved some combination of them not being able to get their fingers off the trigger, and then recoil forces, combined with their finger touching the resetting trigger, would cause them to "rock" off an unintentional shot. They "doubled", in other words, but only expected the first shot.
Or, they were trying to hold the trigger at the mechanical "reset" point, and any number of little things (some unfelt twitch, yip, tremor, false start, hand/finger confusion, balance shift, etc) could cause them to unintentionally, and unknowingly, fire a subsequent round.
When things are happening very quickly during live-fire, and especially during recoil & cycling, it's not impossible for folks to sometimes not realize what's happening. I've watched shooters twitch and press a trigger (because I was watching their manipulation of the gun), and yet they were adamant that their finger had been off the trigger at the moment the shot had been fired. Yet it hadn't been, and I'd watched their finger twitch against the trigger. (I've also seen folks twitch and push mag catches or slide stop levers when they swore they'd not done so, either, so it's not like it can't happen with other fine motor skill tasks under stress.)
I urge you to read again the link you just posted. The guy was convicted of knowingly transferring a machine gun. He was not prosecuted for his gun having a malfunction.
He also left also an electronic trail that provided evidence that he had purchased M16 parts in an apparent attempt to make his rifle capable of automatic fire.
Also, when poop-fer-brains had his supposed gun "malfunctions" he was at a public range, and repeated the firing several times. Not exactly a malfunction.
It also didn't help his case any when he was found to be part of a "vigilante" group, whatever that is.
So, there has still not been any evidence of anyone being arrested for having his gun malfunction at the shooting range.
Hell, I used to have an HK91 (7.62 NATO) that would send two or three down range if I did not pull the trigger back hard enough. It was like that when new. Why? Because there was a bunch of **** in the trigger housing, apparently left there during the manufacturing process. A thorough cleaning had it working the way it was supposed to.
Last edited by Warren Sear; 01-28-2016 at 10:05 AM.
I typically shoot about 100 round per month at the range and have not had an experience like I described in my original post before. In the particular case I posted about, I had shot about 75 rounds without incident. I was firing fairly quickly - after firing, I fired again once I had reacquired an on-target sight picture. I was not intentionally limiting my trigger release to the reset point, but was not completely moving my finger off the trigger either. The first incidence of double firing startled me and I assumed that it was caused by something I did with the trigger. After thinking about it for a little while, I continued firing and after about a half dozen more rounds it happened again. After the first double fire I was much more conscious of my trigger action and am as confident as a shooter can be in this situation that I did not pull the trigger a second time. Secondly, the rapidity of the second fire after the first was much faster than I could intentionally do by pulling the trigger a second time.
Once I get the gun back tomorrow I'll take it back to the range and see what happens. Most likely it will be fine. Maybe the cleaning and polishing made a difference. Maybe I'll be more precise with my trigger finger. But that still leaves me wondering if this will happen again when I least expect it.
I believe the SA XDS was recalled due to the gun firing unintentionally. They recalled thousands of xds 45 semi autos.
At first people were saying it was the shooter's fault but then more than a few were having the same problem. That was when SA did a recall on all XDS guns for what was a real design problem.
In rethinking this one, I'd be very suspicious that the cause was an intermittent sticking firing pin. This could have been caused by a defect in the pin or slide, or more likely dirt or debris of some sort in the channel. Hopefully it is fixed.
I believe the SA XDS was recalled due to the gun firing unintentionally. They recalled thousands of xds 45 semi autos.
At first people were saying it was the shooter's fault but then more than a few were having the same problem. That was when SA did a recall on all XDS guns for what was a real design problem.
With the XD-S, it was going Full Auto... Dumping the entire mag. This was 3yrs ago, so my memory by be a bit fuzzy, but IIRC, it was related to the Grip Safety linkage.
Alter or modify a gun to fire full auto and you have some felony issues. A gun that doubles as a result of wear or other mechanical defect is a non-legal issue.
Happened to me with my Hi-Power. Once. Tough pistol, the gunsmith was able to remove the case with no damage to weapon. Love that gun. Wish it was a double/single.
I typically shoot about 100 round per month at the range and have not had an experience like I described in my original post before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epj
In rethinking this one, I'd be very suspicious that the cause was an intermittent sticking firing pin.
Yep, I completely agree with this. If the firing pin is sticking, it could cause this malfunction at the rate you seem to be having.
If you've had this gun for a while, you have several thousand rounds through it. If you've never cleaned out the striker channel, there could be a lot of dirt in there. That could cause the striker to stick.
9mm Shield double discharge
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