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Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols All Variants of the Smith & Wesson M&P Auto Pistols


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  #1  
Old 04-26-2016, 01:24 PM
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Bear with me on this, I am new to this particular handgun. It is the only one of it's kind (M&P semi-auto, that is. I had a 1911 on loan for awhile, but other than that it has been revolvers)

Outside of the initial take-up, there is no discernible travel in the trigger before it breaks. It feels like heavy SA to me rather than DA. Just press... click. Reset to repeat. I never get the sense that a firing mechanism is being cocked when I pull the trigger. If this is a DA pistol, then my understanding of DA vs. SA needs revision.
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:42 PM
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It's both and neither. It like the Glock are a pre-loaded striker fired pistol. What that means is the striker is cocked and rests on the sear, when you press the trigger back the sear moves back and pulls the striker back just a little further (while at the same time moving the plunger striker blocking safety) then the sear drops down to release the striker so it flies forward to strike the primer of the round in the chamber.

There is no "second strike" like a DA - the trigger and striker don't reset unless the slide moves to the rear.

It really is more of a single action than anything. The small distance back the striker is moved by pulling the trigger is not significant and is the only "hint" of DA it has.
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Old 04-26-2016, 06:10 PM
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The Power Factor video below helped me understand this better. It's about the Shield, but I expect it's the same idea for a non-Shield. Skip forward to around 21:30 if you just want the explanation.

Shield | PowerFactor Show

Last edited by Motorsporting; 04-26-2016 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty3030 View Post
It's both and neither. It like the Glock are a pre-loaded striker fired pistol. What that means is the striker is cocked and rests on the sear, when you press the trigger back the sear moves back and pulls the striker back just a little further (while at the same time moving the plunger striker blocking safety) then the sear drops down to release the striker so it flies forward to strike the primer of the round in the chamber.

There is no "second strike" like a DA - the trigger and striker don't reset unless the slide moves to the rear.

It really is more of a single action than anything. The small distance back the striker is moved by pulling the trigger is not significant and is the only "hint" of DA it has.
Great explanation. Glock has an animated video showing this but without the written detail like this. Good job!
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:22 PM
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Here's how the trigger works:

The M&P really is a SA gun, but people will fight you to the death if you say that. So, I'm not saying that, but it is.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:03 PM
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Here's the current USPSA definition of SA vs DA.

8.1.5 In respect of handguns used at USPSA matches, the following definitions apply:

8.1.5.1“Single Action” means activation of the trigger causes a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker falls).

8.1.5.2 “Double Action” means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls).

8.1.5.3 “Selective Action” means that the handgun can be operated in either “Single Action” or “Double Action” modes.


So because the trigger in a M&P moves the trigger bar, which moves the sear, which releases the sear, it gets classified as a double action. ???? This sounds like a way to get striker fired guns into the production division. SA only are prohibited. I'm in agreement with Rastoff, to me DA means that with an unloaded gun, the trigger can be pulled twice and the hammer or striker will fall twice.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkreutz View Post
Here's the current USPSA definition of SA vs DA.

8.1.5 In respect of handguns used at USPSA matches, the following definitions apply:

8.1.5.1“Single Action” means activation of the trigger causes a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker falls).

8.1.5.2 “Double Action” means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls).

8.1.5.3 “Selective Action” means that the handgun can be operated in either “Single Action” or “Double Action” modes.


So because the trigger in a M&P moves the trigger bar, which moves the sear, which releases the sear, it gets classified as a double action. ???? This sounds like a way to get striker fired guns into the production division. SA only are prohibited. I'm in agreement with Rastoff, to me DA means that with an unloaded gun, the trigger can be pulled twice and the hammer or striker will fall twice.
I've got to disagree with you. I was always taught the definition of double action was the trigger performed 2 actions. In this case the trigger pulls the striker to its full cock position AND releases it, just like a double action revolver.

Nothing in this definition addresses what might/should happen if the gun does not fire.
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Old 05-18-2016, 11:34 PM
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This sounds like a way to get striker fired guns into the production division. SA only are prohibited.
Are you sure about this? I've used my 1911 in the production division and it's single action only.

The NRA (and Rastoff) define the difference between DA and SA as the number of actions performed by the trigger.
DA= The trigger cocks and releases the hammer.
SA= The trigger only releases the hammer.

The disagreement comes when talking about a gun like the Glock. The Glock is partially cocked once a round is chambered. Therefore, the trigger pulls the striker back a little bit more and then releases it. In the M&P, the trigger does not move the striker back any more. Yes, some will claim that the sear has a cam that moves the striker back as it moves toward being released. The amount it moves back is no more than any other SA gun.

In the end it doesn't matter. Call it a SA or DA, who cares? It makes no difference to how the gun shoots.
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:42 PM
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The really cool thing about this discussion is that it makes us use our minds to visualize what is really going on inside our pistols. I call this, "mental chewing gum". I like it.
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:27 PM
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USPSA Production does NOT allow single action guns (1911, 2011, etc.). It DOES allow striker fired guns.

That being said, there was some bickering about SA vs DA striker guns in IDPA for classification purposes. IIRC, there was a time when guns like the XD were classified ESP while Glocks were SSP because of the latter being considered "double-action". The rule was changed so it matches Production rules regarding that aspect.

IMO, M&P's are absolutely single action triggers as all that happens is the sear releases the fully cocked striker. Glocks are double action (sort of) as pulling the trigger finishes cocking the partially cocked striker before releasing it.

Understanding the difference makes it easier to understand why a light striker spring in a Glock usually has a much more substantial effect on the trigger pull weight than a lighter striker spring in an M&P.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:08 PM
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IGU............
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Old 05-20-2016, 07:33 AM
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One is an apple, the other is an orange. I have a Glock and an M&P and I like both triggers. They are similar and different. I have a hammer-fired DA Bersa and I only like it after the hammer is cocked. If I use the trigger to cock the hammer, my aim is terrible.
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Old 05-21-2016, 10:38 AM
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USPSA Production does NOT allow single action guns (1911, 2011, etc.). It DOES allow striker fired guns.
Then what class did I shoot in with my bone stock 1911? They told me it was the production class. I've only done it a couple of times.
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Old 05-21-2016, 11:23 AM
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Then what class did I shoot in with my bone stock 1911? They told me it was the production class. I've only done it a couple of times.
If they let you shoot in production, they made a mistake (not uncommon at level 1 matches). You should have been in Single Stack division. (1911's are special, they have their own division )
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Old 05-21-2016, 07:55 PM
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It's possible they used the wrong terminology. It's also possible I'm using the wrong terminology. Life goes on.
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:54 AM
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Back to the OPs question. I am surprised to hear that. My M&P9c has a definite wall. Pull the trigger to take out the pre travel and it hits a wall. Then more effort is needed to pull through the wall and fire the gun. It is not a lot of travel, but enough to be felt for sure.
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Old 05-22-2016, 09:41 AM
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With the Apex FSS kit, there's about 1/4" of take-up and zero creep, 4# "wall", crisp break, 3/8" reset.

Much improved with he Apex trigger. I just ordered the Apex M&P Failure Resistant Extractor. Should cure the 9C of throwing brass in my face.
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Old 05-22-2016, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by CBStuard View Post
Back to the OPs question. I am surprised to hear that. My M&P9c has a definite wall. Pull the trigger to take out the pre travel and it hits a wall. Then more effort is needed to pull through the wall and fire the gun. It is not a lot of travel, but enough to be felt for sure.
I don't how what the OP stated is any different than what you're stating. He basically was saying that he has pre-travel and then hits a wall where it breaks.

There is a wide variation in the trigger pulls of M&P guns depending on how that particular gun's parts fit together. The "wall" and "creep" vary based on the loop shaped piece of the trigger bar and the lob on the sear that it interacts with.
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBStuard View Post
Back to the OPs question. I am surprised to hear that. My M&P9c has a definite wall. Pull the trigger to take out the pre travel and it hits a wall. Then more effort is needed to pull through the wall and fire the gun. It is not a lot of travel, but enough to be felt for sure.
My M&P 9c is the same (newer versions may have this feature?) and I really like it. When I pull the trigger I "look" for the wall as I aim and my accuracy has improved by doing this. I believe this may be the cause of my not feeling the "grittiness" of the trigger but I wouldn't change it if I could.
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Old 05-23-2016, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonephish View Post
With the Apex FSS kit, there's about 1/4" of take-up and zero creep, 4# "wall", crisp break, 3/8" reset.

Much improved with he Apex trigger. I just ordered the Apex M&P Failure Resistant Extractor. Should cure the 9C of throwing brass in my face.
The Apex Failure Resistant Extractor works in my Glock 17. BTF was a common problem in the Gen3 which is what I have. I tried replacing the Gen3 ejector with the Gen4 ejector which helps in a lot of cases. It didn't help mine but I bought the expensive and very high quality (non-MIMS) Apex Extractor and the BTF stopped. Apex is good stuff!!!

Last edited by boomerguy49; 05-23-2016 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 05-23-2016, 02:32 PM
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Video was helpful.
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Old 06-06-2016, 10:32 PM
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The Apex Failure Resistant Extractor works in my Glock 17. BTF was a common problem in the Gen3 which is what I have. I tried replacing the Gen3 ejector with the Gen4 ejector which helps in a lot of cases. It didn't help mine but I bought the expensive and very high quality (non-MIMS) Apex Extractor and the BTF stopped. Apex is good stuff!!!
This is an update to my installation of the Apex FRE in my M&P 9c. While it helped my Glock, it did not help my M&P with BTF. I spend lots of money for the Apex FRE and the 1/16" roll pin punch (definitely necessary if you have a roll pin) for nothing. Visually, I can see that the Apex is MUCH higher quality than the OEM extractor and I will leave it in the gun and hope the BTF heals itself. Thankfully, BTF is the only problem with my M&P 9c -- everything else functions perfectly and the accuracy is great.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:47 AM
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This is an update to my installation of the Apex FRE in my M&P 9c. While it helped my Glock, it did not help my M&P with BTF. I spend lots of money for the Apex FRE and the 1/16" roll pin punch (definitely necessary if you have a roll pin) for nothing. Visually, I can see that the Apex is MUCH higher quality than the OEM extractor and I will leave it in the gun and hope the BTF heals itself. Thankfully, BTF is the only problem with my M&P 9c -- everything else functions perfectly and the accuracy is great.
OK, what does BTF mean? I did a google search and only found 51 different possibilities. BTF - Definition by AcronymFinder
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:49 PM
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OK, what does BTF mean? I did a google search and only found 51 different possibilities. BTF - Definition by AcronymFinder
I'm putting my money on Brass to Face.
I hate acronyms
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:28 PM
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I'm putting my money on Brass to Face.
I hate acronyms
You're probably right, FMR, SMH
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:21 AM
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I'm sorry about the confusion. It is Brass to Face which is actually only partially correct. It is brass to:
-face
-top of head
-down my shirt
-on top of my glasses
-nose
All of these create an apprehension to feeling hot brass on my body parts which aren't protected.
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Old 06-08-2016, 01:43 PM
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I had the same question and I hate acronyms too. Is it really that hard to type out what you want to say?

If the brass is hitting you, call S&W and send it in for repair. It should not do that.
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Old 06-08-2016, 02:20 PM
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I had the same question and I hate acronyms too. Is it really that hard to type out what you want to say?

If the brass is hitting you, call S&W and send it in for repair. It should not do that.
Acronyms are ok its just when people make up their own that confusion enters the picture !!
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Old 06-08-2016, 02:55 PM
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They're all made up and most have so many meanings that they're almost useless unless you are in a special community. You can use Abbreviations and acronyms dictionary but you still need to know what your looking for because that site will list hundreds of possibilities.

Consider the over used FTF. On this forum it could mean fail-to-feed or fail-to-fire. It also means face-to-face or further-to-follow or full-time-father or...

I hate acronyms.
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Old 06-08-2016, 03:05 PM
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If you were ever on a Glock forum you wouldn't know what BTF means fairly quickly. But this is the first I've heard of it in association with an M&P. Maybe why it's less known on this forum.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:52 PM
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As a novice shooter, I love trolling this forum, lol. As to the trigger on my 9C, it is better than I am. And while I like learning about how my gun works, I have no plans to start swapping internal parts. Whether it is SA or DA does not really matter to me at this time. When I get to the point where I think I shoot better than my gun, maybe that will change. All I know is all the M&P's I have had have gone bang each and every time I have pulled the trigger, and that is what matters most to me.
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Old 12-04-2016, 11:37 PM
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I had the same question and I hate acronyms too. Is it really that hard to type out what you want to say?

If the brass is hitting you, call S&W and send it in for repair. It should not do that.
That was my first move. I sent it back to S&W. They polished the feed ramp, test fired the pistol, sent it back to me with a note saying that it was fixed. I took it to the range. No difference.
My second move was to send it back to S&W. They test fired it and said it had no problems. They sent it back. I took it to the range. No difference.
My third move was to install the APEX FRE extractor.
Now, after firing several hundred more rounds at the range, it is slightly better as far as ejecting the BRASS TO FACE and other parts of my head. The trigger is much better which I attribute to breaking in. Hopefully, the ejection problem will keep healing itself.
I am disappointed with S&W for their attitude in lying about my problem being fixed. So much for the "lifetime warranty". I was planning on buying a full size M&P before this experience. My best ejecting pistol is my Springfield XD9.

Last edited by boomerguy49; 12-08-2016 at 07:28 PM. Reason: UPDATE
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:01 AM
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Default When I was reading up.....

When I was reading up on M&Ps specifically the Shield. I was surprised how people raved about the trigger being something closer to a SA than a DAO. The trigger on mine is the best out of all my DAO guns for sure.
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  #34  
Old 12-05-2016, 05:49 AM
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The only incidence of Brass to Face, I have experienced with with 147 grain hollow points, in a Kahr and my SWaMPy 9c. I didn't care for the recoil and I stick with 115gr rounds. My knees are beyond competition, and the traffic accident didn't help either. I have been advised by a youthful acquaintance that his 115 gr factory rounds did not make minor, but it was a local club shoot and they let him compete. Since then he has used 124 gr ball for competition exclusively.
Geoff
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:36 PM
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That was my first move. I sent it back to S&W. They polished the feed ramp, test fired the pistol, sent it back to me with a note saying that it was fixed. I took it to the range. No difference.
My second move was to send it back to S&W. They test fired it and said it had no problems. They sent it back. I took it to the range. No difference.
My third move was to install the APEX FRE extractor.
Now, after firing several hundred more rounds at the range, it is slightly better as far as ejecting the BRASS TO FACE and other parts of my head. The trigger is much better which I attribute to breaking in. Hopefully, the ejection problem will keep healing itself.
I am disappointed with S&W for their attitude in lying about my problem being fixed. So much for the "lifetime warranty". I was planning on buying a full size M&P before this experience. My best ejecting pistol is my Springfield XD9.
UPDATE:
After firing my M&P 9c many more times with different brands of target ammo plus jacketed hollow points, there was very little improvement. When I installed the APEX FRE (FAILURE RESISTANT EXTRACTOR) I only noticed slight improvement, so I figured I would reinstall the OEM S&W extractor and try again. There was immediate improvement. It still ejects BRASS-TO-FACE (no acronyms here) but only at a fraction of what I had before. I've fired about 1000 rounds so far and the trigger is fantastic, the accuracy is fantastic and I haven't had any type of failure (FAIL-TO-FEED, FAIL-TO-EJECT, STOVEPIPES, DOUBLE-FEED, etc.) at all. Other than S&W's lying to me about my pistol and saying that it "has no problems", I love the pistol.
Would anyone like to buy a used APEX FAILURE RESISTANT EXTRACTOR for an M&P?
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Old 12-09-2016, 01:26 AM
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I have to wonder if this could be a shooter issue rather than the gun. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong boomerguy49. I'm just wondering if the shooter could influence this. I mean, S&W has nothing to gain by lying to you about working or not. So, I'm wondering if you're doing something different than another shooter might do?
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  #37  
Old 12-13-2016, 07:16 PM
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I have to wonder if this could be a shooter issue rather than the gun. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong boomerguy49. I'm just wondering if the shooter could influence this. I mean, S&W has nothing to gain by lying to you about working or not. So, I'm wondering if you're doing something different than another shooter might do?
I've owned several semi-auto's over the years and this is the only one that presents this problem. Like I said above, the APEX Failure Resistant Extractor cured the problem in my Glock 17 Gen3 but only helped a little in my M&P 9c. Restoring the OEM M&P extractor actually showed some improvement over the APEX but the problem still exists. I consciously don't "limpwrist" and I don't have any failures of any kind while firing any of my pistols. All of them fire and eject 100% of the time. I just don't know how a shooter could cause the direction of an ejected shell's path to consistently come to the face. If you check the u-tube video's, this is a problem with the M&P 9mm pistols, both Full Size and Compact; otherwise, APEX wouldn't offer the Failure Resistant Extractor.
Again, I love the M&P 9c's accuracy, trigger and overall comfort. I'm actually considering replacing my Glock 17 with a full size M&P 9.

Last edited by boomerguy49; 12-13-2016 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Add content
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:14 PM
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I've owned several semi-auto's over the years and this is the only one that presents this problem....

...the APEX Failure Resistant Extractor cured the problem in my Glock 17 Gen3 but only helped a little in my M&P 9c.
So, you've had this problem with more than one gun.

The Apex Failure Resistant Extractor was not developed to stop brass-to-face issues. The early M&P had extraction issues and some actually broke. The Apex was made to prevent that.

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I just don't know how a shooter could cause the direction of an ejected shell's path to consistently come to the face.
Neither do I. I was just wondering out loud. I was really hoping someone else could chime in and maybe shed some light. In your case it could just be the gun. None of mine do this though and all have the stock parts.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:18 AM
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So, you've had this problem with more than one gun.

The Apex Failure Resistant Extractor was not developed to stop brass-to-face issues. The early M&P had extraction issues and some actually broke. The Apex was made to prevent that.

Neither do I. I was just wondering out loud. I was really hoping someone else could chime in and maybe shed some light. In your case it could just be the gun. None of mine do this though and all have the stock parts.
The first time I sent the M&P 9c to S&W for repairs, they buffed the feed ramp without denying there was a problem. The second time I sent the pistol to them for the same problem was when they denied the problem.
The problem with my Glock was only temporary because replacing the OEM extractor with the APEX extractor fixed it. My Springfield XD and other pistols have never had this issue and eject consistently. My firing stance and grip is always the same with all of my pistols and like I said, I make sure not to "limpwrist". Anyway, it seems to be improving and I will keep any improvements posted. I love everything else about the M&P 9c.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:46 PM
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Regarding the ejection path in my M&P 9c, I just noticed for the first time a shiny groove in the middle of the bottom of the hole in the slide which has to be caused by the ejected shells. I hadn't seen this before because it can't be seen while looking at the profile of the slide. If I point the pistol toward the front and look straight down inside the pistol grip, so that I can see the feed ramp, the groove is in the 45 degree edge of the slide's "window" bottom. The groove is the correct angle for the ejected shell to follow. I'm hoping the pistol will eventually heal itself even if it means a shiny scar in my slide. I don't want to send my pistol back to the mother ship but I will call and see if this is normal.

UPDATE:
I called S&W and they offered no suggestions as to the cause, other than, "sent it back and we'll contact you after inspecting it". I didn't want to sent it back unless it was absolutely necessary, so I kept looking for answers. After checking other posts on this forum, I found that this is actually brass buildup from the ejecting shells. I only shoot new brass case ammo and I hadn't noticed this problem until lately, after I started firing Perfecta. I'll pay more attention to my other ammo (Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc.) and see if it is consistent with all of them. At any rate, I feel better now. I was afraid my slide was wearing down.

Last edited by boomerguy49; 12-27-2016 at 10:50 PM. Reason: added UPDATE
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