No thumb safety on any of my guns, except 1911s

Mistakes can be made with or without the safety. A big concern is the safety can give false security and is an extra variable the operator must account for in all handling situations.
I treat every firearm as loaded and I use quality holsters.
A single action pistol should have a thumb safety. Striker fired pistols do not need them, except for the Sig p320 ;(
Many folks have had accidental discharges on pistols with safeties. If you want a safety, thats your choice, God Bless America. If you ever read about the testing police departments did with different pistols, you'll find out that a high percentage of experience firearms instructors failed to remember if the safety was on or off and it was common to have issues where the time to shoot arose and they didn't turn off the safety.
Glock doesn't put safeties on their pistols and more police carry their pistols than any other. I worked as LEO in the 90s and we were issued the Beretta 92G. Wilson Combat sells G conversion kits. They don't sell kits to add the safety...
Please don't ever feel your M&P is safer because it has a safety, you're kidding yourself.

__________________
Got Apex?

So the main argument with a thumb safety like on say a Shield 9 is that somehow it will cost you your life because in that moment of need you will forget to flick it off . Not to sound sarcastic but how many people have actually had to fast draw and shoot . From what I have seen or heard from real events is people run for shelter . Only to return fire some what later if at all . Sometimes I get the feeling that people think they are going to be in a quick draw contest like the wild west . I hear this same reasoning over and over again . I have a safety on when loaded it's how I feel comfortable . Maybe there are quick draw gun fights going on some where I have not heard about .

You're right, its crazy how many people involved in defensive shootings said afterward how relaxed the whole shootout was...
Every training I've received has stressed how laid back shootouts can be. Most teach their that there is no need to carry a round chambered, or even ammo on your person. You can run, I mean stroll calmly and get the ammo from your trunk later on if needed.

__________________
Got Apex?

I'm a lefty, so my shield is the nts version. Two of my other M&Ps had the ambi safety which I removed and added the frame plugs. I don't want any device preventing my trigger from being pulled to the rear when I intend it to do so. YMMV.

__________________
The Penetration Channel

... I don't need a safety on my CCW and just like the quote from Blackhawk Down, my safety is my index finger. If my finger is on the trigger something is going to get shot. If my finger isn't on the trigger then nothing will be shot. It's that simple. That being said my first S&W M&P Bodyguard 380 came with both a laser and a thumb safety. It came that way so be it. When I carry the gun in an IWB the safety is off. If I am going to show it to someone I pop out the mag and rack the slide to remove the chambered round. Again, it's that simple. I do have an old Ruger P-85. Again, it came with a thumb safety, so be it. But I follow the same rules, if I'm going to show it to someone, I pop out the mag and rack the slide to remove the round that's chambered.
Then again, I have been shooting since I was 10 years old. I shot my first 1911 when I was 10. My Grandfather popped out the mag and racked the slide to pop out the round and handed me the gun with the slide open. He showed me how to operate the gun then handed me the mag back, I shoved the mag in place, racked the slide and pointed it at the target and "bang". My first shot with a semi-auto was a hit. I get no credit for that, I give all the credit to my Grandfather for being an excellent teacher. He had been putting meat on their table since he was the same age as I was at the time, 10 years old. Oh, by the way, I'll save you the math, I'm 58 years old, so I've been shooting for 48 years, 2 years shy of a half century of shooting.

Safe shooting to you all~
Kia

__________________
Tertia Optio

There are many security videos out there that show defenders presenting and firing right away because the bad guy is right in front of them. They didn't have time to run for shelter.

The point is, you don't know what the situation will be when you'll need your gun. The smartest idea is to practice a lot and be ready for whatever you can be ready for.

If you have a thumb safety, and that's your choice, it's wise to practice switching it off.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I started shooting in 1960. I love Semi's over revolvers. I have always used a safety on my pistols. I probably never needed to use them. I never accidentally pulled the trigger but I used them. It has something to do with MURPHY the lawgiver.

I NEVER LOOK AT MY GUN till I have it in firing position. It comes from my holster and as it is being leveled my thumb does its thing and flips the safety off. It is part of acquiring my target. I am not fast but I know what my target is all the time and where it is all the time. Even with a safety I am not slowed down, because it is part of my draw.

So my question is: What is the problem with using a safety?
My primary CCW is a model 59, old and heavy. I have 2 safeties, It won't fire if the mag is out and the other is manual at thumb. The manual not only disables the trigger but also decocks the weapon and covers the firing pin so the hammer won't strike it. I carry with one round in the chamber and I follow safety procedures with my weapon at all times but I feel more comfortable that I can enable it to fire before I acquire my target without any waste of time.

__________________
Jim Morton --- The Ancient 1

Apples and oranges (i.e. a falacious argument). A (uncocked) double action revolver is vastly more difficult to fire accidentally, than a modern striker-fired pistol is.
The arguments against having a safety (from what I've read, for years now), seem to rest on this belief that there's a likelyhood of ever needing to draw and fire a pistol in .04 seconds, or else certain death will ensue.
It is unlikely in the extreme that the average civilian toter will ever need to fire his weapon, much less ever be surprised that quickly with a critical, life/death assault (BTW, this is where a little situational awareness comes in handy).
On the other hand, we are VASTLY more likely to be handling the pistol in numerous ways, every day.....for decades, without ever,EVER needing to fire it.
Therefore, the fact of the matter is that an accidental dischage is much more realistic threat, than this hypothetical need to start blasting in less time than it takes to flick off a safety.
Also, when toting my Shield, I typically flick the safety off once in my pocket holster, so I'm still ready to fend of any ninja-alien-zombies that instantaneously materialize within arms reach of me.
Otherwise, I leave the safety on.

I guess you've never tried a Glock with an NY+ trigger. The trigger pull weight is equivalent to that of a DAO revolver and the trigger travel is 1/2" compared to 3/4" for the revolver. Slightly shorter, but not a vast difference as far I'm concerned in terms of safety.

And not all striker-fired pistols are the same. Some feature a nearly fully pre-cocked striker, others like the Glock are only about half-cocked. There are even a few models that are true DAO with multi-strike capability where there is no pre-tensioning of the striker.

I'm a little confused how a manual safety really benefits you since you carry it in the off position in a pocket holster.

And you make the assertion that reactive close-quarter scenarios involving the need for armed response are rare. What stats or knowledge are you basing that on? I would agree that needing to fire a weapon in self-defense is relatively uncommon(as long as you have an ample amount of common sense and don't put yourself at undue risk), but should you need to fire your weapon, there is a very good chance that it will be quick and close.

Dredging up an exception does not disprove the rule, and as a rule, striker fired semi autos simply ARE more prone to a AD than a revolver. (what's next, you gonna tell me about your brother-in-law's over-tuned .357 that has a 1.5# trigger ?)



Again, no ****,Sherlock. Obviously, I (as nearly everyone on the planet routinely does) was speaking in relative,general terms, exceptions notwithstanding.


Once the pistol is securely in my pocket, i will often (but not necessarilly) click off the safety, and at the point I reach in to remove the pistol, I'll click the safety back on. So, what all that means is that for the vast majority of it's existence,(and all the related transporting and handling) the pistol is in safe mode.
That's the benefit. Obviously,no one is going to have an AD while a pistol is securely in a pocket holser, in their pocket. It's during all the other handling that the risk exists.


I don't need to cite statistics or studies,for what I've observed in media reports, over decades.
Why don't YOU go dig up some stats on how many uses of firearms in self-defense required a response so immediate that merely clicking off a safety was so much of a delay or hinderance, that the shooter was overcome and killed.
When compounded with the very low number of incidences requiring armed repsonse, I'm confident that any that required one that instantaneous are an even tinier fraction of SD events.


Wwwhat ?? .....no sources or stats to cite??
Obviously, there is typically a degree of quickness and closeness (since that's exactly what pistols were designed for), but I was clearly talking about cases SO close, and SO fast, that the 1/4-second act of sweeping your thumb along the safety takes too much time and trouble, resulting in the victim's demise.
Sure, it's probably happened, but still, statistically non-existent, I'd wager .

Your semi-autos all have very long and very heavy trigger pulls like your revolvers ... right?

As usual, civil discussion and debate is obviously too much to ask for.

... pretty heavy triggers. Since the triggers are covered in my holster the chances of an AD are extremely slim or I wouldn't carry them in that manner.
As to civil discussions, I've rarely seen nastiness here, but then I've only been on this forum for a short time. Personally, I see no need to be less than cordial and that's how I live my life. It saves me from raising my blood pressure or that of others around me. In fact, I have been called the most polite person that people have ever known. I suppose that's a southern upbringing, though I am not saying that people raised elsewhere aren't polite either. I usually get treated as I treat others.
As I was taught, play nice kids, LOL.

Stay safe ya'll~

K

__________________
Tertia Optio

What difference does it really make if you have a safety or no safety?
The safety debate to me is as senseless as all the, what gun oil should I use to which caliber is the best.

If you have to ask others which should you buy then maybe you shouldn't buy either.

1 Comment: You just started a MAJOR pissing contest.

1 Suggestion: after you do your research and decide which is best for you get THAT ONE. If you decide you want one without a safety don't cave in and buy one with a safety because that's what's available right now. Vice versa if you decide on one with a safety

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Most of my semi autos have safeties, why? They came with safeties, I prefer them, and I can. Why I don't care if guns do not come with safeties? It really is none of my business. I either buy a gun, use it, or I don't.

As long as what people do is safe, and legal I respect them to decide for themselves on most any subject.

I prefer no thumb safety

__________________
^Cat looks like a burrito

I'm the one who was getting educated in that thread. You should read it. According to both posters if the striker were to drop from 98% it would ignite the primer.

The thread is called The Safety Situation I highly suggest reading it

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Personally I will go for the thumb safety. I don't consider that lever in the middle of the trigger much if any of a safety. If I don't train my mind using the thumb safety while practicing then I shouldn't have the gun. I would much better train using a thumb safety then expect that trigger lever to keep me from possibly shooting myself.
To each his/her own what they feel is safer for themselves. It's their leg not yours. Personally I carry a revolver because I feel it is the safest and most reliable gun.

An external thumb safety or any safety for that matter will not stop a HUA moment of action.

No safety. Never a manual safety on any of my firearms.

Whether you choose to use the thumb safety or not unless your practicing your draw either from concealment or open carry to the point it becomes second nature it wont matter. Keeping the trigger finger out of the trigger guard until your acquiring your target is all the safety one should need. Deactivating a manual safety is just an extra step and if you haven't built in the muscle memory necessary from lots of practice you likely will fumble when sh$t hits the fan costing you precious time and possibly your life. Practice your draw keeping your trigger finger out of the trigger guard until the gun is coming to the target.

When the gun is holstered with a proper holster that covers the entire trigger guard, it CAN'T go off accidently.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

That's because it isn't a 'safety' in the sense you're thinking of it. It's a 'drop safety', not a normal,traditional trigger safety. I used to think it was useless and stupid myself until eventually finding out what I actually was.
As I understand this, the trigger and striker are inter-connected, so if either one moves, so does the other.
That goofy little lever just keeps the trigger from moving, if the pistol is dropped, inertia can't move the trigger or striker,resulting in an AD (again, that's my understanding of it).
And while I'm here, apologies to Mister X for the over-zealous reply, I get all wound up now and then .

No thumb safeties for me.

Extensive background with Glocks ...no safety is the way I went with my Shield which I bought after selling Glock 43.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No for me, it is my carry gun and I do not want to have to worry about flipping off when needed.
I prefer no thumb safety for any of my HD guns too.

None of my previous carry guns (Makarov, P380, Glock 26, various J & K frame revolvers) had a device which required moving with the thumb after drawing and before a shot could be fired. So it is not an action I have ever trained for over the dozen or so years I've been carrying daily.

I fell in love with the micro 9mm autos after trying several at a rental range, and decided to switch from my 38 revolvers. My favorite was the SIG 938, but that one HAS to be carried cocked and locked, which would be something completely new to my routine. It would have required a LOT of training to make swiping the safety off into an automatic action that became part of the draw stroke. But since I expected to still carry the revolvers on occasion, I did not want to introduce a different manual of arms if I could avoid it. This led to my choosing the Shield 9 WITHOUT a safety lever as my new carry piece. It's one less thing that could get in the way of making a first shot rapidly under pressure.

Now my M&P 22C is a different story. That one DOES have a safety lever (one on each side, actually) and I quite like the fact that they're there. This (probably) will be one of the guns that will be used to teach my grandchildren how to shoot, and I don't mind at all that it has a safety lever - or a magazine disconnect, for that matter (which is an absolute disqualifier on any gun that I have ever considered for daily carry.) The 22 will never be a concealed carry piece, so I don't care if it has features that make it harder to get off a first shot in a hurry.

Different application, different requirements, based on MY background, experience and circumstances. YMMV, of course.

Advice worth repeating -- "If you decide you want one without a safety don't cave in and buy one with a safety because that's what's available right now. Vice versa if you decide on one with a safety."

There is no expert opinion that should rule for everyone, as manual safety vs no manual safety, and magazine disconnect vs no disconnect, needs to be a personal decision, there are very good pros and cons to both sides, so best to research on your own, look at the different designs and configurations that are out there for safeties (eg-frame mounted vs slide mounted, high profile like 3rd gen S&W and Beretta 92s vs the lower profile you see on many newer semi-autos like the M&P line, etc), if possible do some practical exercises trying some out, and once you decide what is most appropriate for your particular use and preference the only universal advice that holds for everyone no matter which side you end up on is - train / practice with that specific firearm.

__________________
DAV Life Member

Why are we doing this AGAIN???

__________________
CERAKOTE Svcs.
Class 01 FFL

Normally I like to stay out of this kind of thread but here's a guy that should've been using a TS and might still be alive today if he had.

What a tragedy.

More than just the Thumb safety. How in the world does he leave the gun where his young toddler son can pick it up !!!

That kid could have easily flicked the safety off, kids love to push and pull anything they can get their hands on. No safety can make up for that level of irresponsibility. If he survived I hope he was charged with negligence.

Prevention of unintentional discharges due to potential mistakes in handling and reholstering are valid reasons for wanting a manual safety, but pointing to cases of gross negligence such as the above video is not IMO.

Along a somewhat similar line of thinking is wanting a manual safety in case you are disarmed and hoping the bad guy won't know how to operate the gun. For cops, there may be a degree of validity to the idea(although nearly all departments have now gone sans manual safeties after weighing the pros vs cons), but for civilians carrying concealed, it just isn't valid. If there is justification in drawing your weapon from concealment as in an assailant that you believe intends to do you harm is close enough to disarm you, then obviously the safety would be/should be off already.

I can easily sweep off my thumb safety on my Shield . I suppose if I were in a make believe quick draw contest with a gun slinger and I needed that extra .5 seconds I might fumble and forget to sweep my safety off . Usually in a real scenario you get a sense of danger way before you handle a firearm . If someone rushes you with a drawn weapon you have already lost . I get a hoot out of people telling me the safety is only between the ears usually the same people who have ND with their glocks . My carry gun has a safety period .

Why is that?

All four of my shields have the thumb safety but the only time I ver use them is if I have to unholster to stow the gun in the car when it can't come with me, it's easier than removing the whole holster. The Shield safety is small and has a low profile, as well as a deliberate action (for lack of a better term) that it's a non-issue for me. I have never found the safety on unless I intentionally placed on safe.

I'm not new to guns. I've trained and carried a 1911 since I first wore an Army uniform over 48 years ago. As it's hard to teach on old dog a new trick, a thumb safety is part of my training. My 9 mm and 45 acp Shields have a thumb safety or I would not have purchased them. Those who are new to guns probably didn't train the same.

Why do I prefer a manual transmission? Same answer.

If you integrate thumbing off the safety with your draw/presentation there is zero delay attributable to that action since the safety will be off before the gun reaches aim point. You simply switch it into fire position as the barrel rises from pointing down at the floor (when drawn from an IWB, OWB or pocket position.) Hence the time involved should not be a factor no matter how quickly a threat presents itself.

In a decade around law enforcement I had knowledge of probably 50 or more cases where police officers fired their weapons at suspects/attackers. I can only recall one case (which I witnessed personally) where there was an immediate draw/fire against a suspect who was also drawing a weapon. In the vast majority of cases there is some warning, especially for a situationally aware officer who sees hands in pockets, reaching under a car seat, etc. In a fairly large number of those cases the officer(s) already had their weapons in hand as they approached the situation, often alongside the seam of the trousers. There just really aren't many "high noon/draw pardner!" situations out there.

Since civilians are likely to face similar situations (carjackers approaching at the gas station, muggers sizing you up on the street) any reasonably alert CCW holder should already have a hand on the gun butt and the safety off before the need to present and possibly fire the weapon.

I carry either a double action hammerless LCR .357 or a .45 Shield, the latter with thumb safety engaged. I never feel unsafe because of that and in fact enjoy an elevated sense of safety.

By the way during that career I knew of at least four officers who experienced negligent discharges with revolvers, in all four when holstering weapons where something on the equipment belt engaged the trigger. I also saw several what I would term accidental discharges during fights and in one case a foot pursuit where the officer went to the ground tackling the suspect.

I am comfortable with a thumb safety and have never considered it an impediment to any necessary self defense reaction.

In your case I understand. You have trained with a safety for decades, it must be second nature to you by now. My comment was specifically to someone who said they were new to handguns.

I have two Shield 9's, both non-safety. It's what I'm used to, how I train, etc.

My friend is completely opposite, he prefers the manual safety and even caries a 1911, etc. His Shield has a safety.

We shoot together, the world keeps spinning...

I personally think it is fine to ask others opinions, though when it comes down to it that is all it is, opinions.
My Shield has the safety. I have two small children and wanted just a little bit of extra security. And no, I am not leaving my gun on the desk hoping my 3 year old won't grab it. I do try to be as careful and vigilant as possible but just in case I wanted that little extra. I figure there is more of a chance of a kid accidentally killing himself than me having an issue while I am quick drawing to defend myself. I just plan on training frequently with it.
IMO it is all about training. If you get good with it, it doesn't matter what you choose.

I bought a Shield with the safety because it was available for $199 (after rebate). IMO it depends on the gun. On some guns the safety can get in the way and be actuated accidentally. The Shield's safety is out of the way and very positive. It would be difficult to actuate it accidently.

That said, I do not carry it with the safety on. When I first started carrying semi-autos I liked the safety for extra peace of mind. It was a mental thing and I knew it was a mental thing. No harm in that. Also, the guns I carried with safeties it was easy to automatically flip them off while taking my grip. The added time was negligible. And I'll add that I've been in a number of shootouts. I always had time to flip off the safety. It's anecdotal, but it is what it is.

So if it makes you feel better, then get the safety. You can choose whether to use it or not. But don't opt for the no safety trying to follow the "my finger is my safety" crowd. Your life. Your gun. Your choice.

My shield does not have a safety. Just a fun question... what if the safety you rely on to keep your gun safe fails and the day it fails you happen to wear something that you know may get caught up in the guard but you rely on the safety to lessen that chance? Just like the lock on a knife... If it comes with it, fine, but I'll always be my own safety/ caution over the built in one.

Obviously, we can play the "what if" game all day.

Hello. A lot of people get uptight about this. Personally, I see no reason for the fuss. As for me, I purchase all of my firearms with a safety. I carry locked an loaded, 1 in the pipe (safety off. So why safety? It's my own personal safety preference. I engage my safety when holstering my gun, or un-holstering at home for the night. Other than that, when concealed carrying, safety's off. For me, I don't want the extra task of disengaging a safety in the moment I need to draw my firearm. But I appreciate the value of the safety for holstering and un-holstering for the night at home. Other than than that, if you see a gun you like and it has a safety and there is no option to buy it without the safety, I say get it if its what you want-- If you don't want like the safety-- don't use it. An extra lock on a door doesn't stop you from getting out if you don't use it-- just don't use it. IMHO. Everyone will do what is comfortable for them.

Today I bought the last 45 Shield the LGS had, it has a safety.

Also, I'm left handed, so the safety is on the wrong side. It doesn't offend me, I just leave it off. But I did notice that it's very handy for me to use while holstering. After the gun is holstered, it's easy to flip off with my left thumb. I'll think about it...

This is one of those topics that people seem to take very personally.

I won't carry a handgun with a safety. That's my personal preference based on experience. I've never been in a gun fight but I have been attacked. I know how fast it can happen and I know how your body reacts.

Your endocrine system overloads your bloodstream with adrenalin. Your pupils dilate and you become very focused on your threat. Your heart rate goes through the roof. Your fine motor skills deteriorate and your brain is processing fight, flight or freeze. (I'm a firm believer that you will default to freeze without training or experience)

I don't want to add a bunch of variables to that mix by having to ask myself "Am I carrying a gun with a safety or without?" "Is it on or off?" (Different topic but) " Is it in a shoulder holster or ankle holster today?"

If I ever have to use a gun to defend myself it's going to be the most stressful event in my life. I want the process to be as uncomplicated as I can make it.

__________________
Retired Career Security Guard

Training is good, but no guarantee. As I was growing up most of the civilian self defense shootings were with absolutely little to no training. A popular weapon at the time was the Colt 25 ACP with a safety, and these gals had no problem figuring out how to get the safety off.

Some training is absolutely stupid, actually beyond stupid. You know those mall ninja operator training guys who charge thousands of dollars for BS. They are more likely to get someone killed.

In today's world trainers are tripping over themselves, most have little real life knowledge. They take what some other trainer with no real life experience, and add their own spin. Repeat, and rinse.

Training should only be with reputable professionals, that are not a few bricks short of a load.

Finding good instruction is hard to do and it doesn't matter what the subject is. Spend any amount of time at all on youtube and you'll find more bad instruction than good.

A good instructor knows their limits. They teach what they know and leave the rest to others. Further, they should understand their students. Like it or not, no one will become an expert in a couple of days. So, to attempt to train a new shooter advanced techniques in only two days of training is ludicrous.

Even more, just because a student had a good time doesn't mean it was good instruction. I spoke with one fellow who said he had just been to this great class. He loved that they had fired over 700 rounds in just two days. I then watched him shoot. It was like he had never received any instruction at all. His grouping at 7 yards was the size of a basketball, his grip was wrong to the point of being dangerous and he had difficulty even operating his gun. He might have had fun shooting a lot, but he sure didn't get much instruction. So, take reviews with a grain of salt.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

I'm beginning to think all it takes to be qualified to offer training classes is a thousand tatoos and a bushman style beard. If you have them you have to be a "baddd assss operator"!