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Old 01-10-2017, 05:04 PM
Ballenxj Ballenxj is offline
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Default Accurising an M&P 9

Anybody have any good tips? Trigger Job? Different Barrel? Other?
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:14 PM
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I've done two things (really three if you count the mag loader).

Pach grip wrap and a pinkie extender for the seven round mag. Very helpful.



The mag loader is a must have. Works on 1911 .45acp and 9mm as well.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:41 PM
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Give an idea of the level of accuracy you are looking for.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:42 PM
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The only "accurizing" I've seen that produced undisputed improvement is the "fitting required" aftermarket barrels. "Drop ins" are no better than good factory barrels, and various trigger jobs, sights and accessories may make the gun easier to shoot, but don't change the mechanical accuracy.
Basically, it isn't a 1" bullseye gun, but is eminently suited to action pistol games and defense use.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:51 PM
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Apex aluminum trigger and forward set sear for a full-size M&P. It lightens the pull, gets rid of the grittiness, and improves the overall performance.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:58 PM
palmettostate1 palmettostate1 is offline
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Give us an idea of the level of accuracy you are looking for.

Please remember:
They are designed to be “combat” accurate and not as bullseye pistols.
They have generous tolerances in order to keep them as reliable and durable as possible under various conditions.
They are designed to be used with a wide variety/quality of ammo.
They are designed to be used by both professional shooters and even the most inexperienced shooters including those who only shoot occasionally.

They work for me and many others in USPSA, IDPA and 3-gun as they are versatile, easy to shoot accurately and quickly, they are cheap, easily repaired and easily replaced if you were to shoot one enough to break it.

If I were looking for true accuracy, I would shoot one of my 1911’s, maybe a Thompson contender or maybe a SIG P-210.

Last edited by palmettostate1; 01-10-2017 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:02 PM
Ballenxj Ballenxj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
The only "accurizing" I've seen that produced undisputed improvement is the "fitting required" aftermarket barrels. "Drop ins" are no better than good factory barrels, and various trigger jobs,
This is kind of what I'm looking at. I have been looking at both a semi drop in barrel that requires end user fitting and stoning, and a barrel by the same company that requires gunsmith skills to fit.
They are both said to reduce 25 yd accuracy to sub 2 inch. The fully fitted barrel by more. They say the accuracy testing was done by machine rest to eliminate human error.
Palmettostate1, I'd be happy with sub 4" groups at 25 yds, but being real I would probably be happy with sub 3" at 10 yds. Of course smaller would be better.
PS, this is a full size M&P 9.

Last edited by Ballenxj; 01-10-2017 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:06 PM
Angus46 Angus46 is offline
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I have performance center CORE ported. The accuracy was terrible!!! Like best I could get was with a lot of work developing hand loads was 4" at 10 yards off a bench. I bought it for competition and that just won't cut it. Trigger was ok, but polishing all the surfaces helped. Didn't change accuracy, just easier to shoot.


So, next step was an APEX gunsmith fit barrel. My slide was so bad it just dropped in with no fitting at all. I shot it. It was better but no where near what APEX was saying that you could expect basically bullseye accuracy at 25 yards. I measured my slide and it was way too big. Thus the terrible accuracy with the factory barell and slightly better with the APEX barrel.

I contacted APEX, they had me ship it to them, they paid all the costs, fit a barrel to my slide and while I was at it got the Flat Faced Forward Set trigger. I put the kit in when I got it back about two weeks later and wow! I used the factory spring with the kit and great trigger pull. Not a custom 1911 trigger but close!

The best was shooting it. Finally when I pulled the trigger and tracked my shots it hit where I was aiming. I had spent hundreds of rounds messing with my technique and thinking it was me. It wasnt at all! I haven't benched it from 25 yards, but I can shoot just about as fast as I can at 25 and keep them all in the head of a B-29 target. At 10 yards I can rapid fire 10 rounds with about .2 splits and put all of them in the 10 ring.

So much of an improvement I sent it off to magna port to have the APEX barrel ported to match the factory barrel. It made all the difference in the world. APEX service was outstanding, best I've ever seen in a company and the end result is outstanding.

If you are pretty experienced and shoot well with other pistols, it's probably the gun not you. Get the APEX products, you won't be disappointed.

Last edited by Angus46; 01-11-2017 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:17 PM
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I'd maybe ask if you already own MP's and are familiar with them giving you a general pro and con list to start with?
What model are you looking at, as there can be a wide range of features available, even triggers will vary based on model.

I have a full size MP, trigger is obviously not the same as my PC Shield but i do just fine with it accuracy wise (for me). So i left mine all stock. Others like to change theirs.

Guess once you have your new gun in hand run some ammo thru it and make some decisions based on what you experienced first hand.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus46 View Post
If you are pretty experienced and shoot well with other pistols, it's probably the gun not you. Get the APEX products, you won't be disappointed.
Thanks, I think you probably hit the nail on the head.
I used to be fairly proficient with my old model 19, and still hold my own with the current crop.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Angus46 View Post
I have performance center CORE ported. The accuracy was terrible!!! Like best I could get was with a lot of work developing hand loads was 4" at 10 yards off a bench. I bought it for competition and that just won't cut it. Trigger was ok, but polishing all the surfaces helped. Didn't change accuracy, just easier to shoot.


So, next step was an APEX gunsmith fit barrel. My slide was so bad it just dropped in with no fitting at all. I shot it. It was better but no where near what APEX was saying that you could expect basically bullseye accuracy at 25 yards. I measured my slide and it was way too big. Thus the terrible accuracy with the factory barell and slightly better with the APEX barrel.

I contacted APEX, they had me ship it to them, they paid all the costs, fit a barrel to my slide and while I was at it got the Flat Faced Forward Set trigger. I put the kit in when I got it back about two weeks later and wow! I used the factory spring with the kit and great trigger pull. Not a custom 1911 trigger but close!

The best was shooting it. Finally when I pulled the trigger and tracked my shots it hit where I was aiming. I had spent hundreds of rounds messing with my technique and thinking it was me. It wasnt at all! I haven't benched it from 25 yards, but I can shoot just about as fast as I can at 25 and keep them all in the head of a B-29 target. At 10 yards I can rapid fire 10 rounds with about .2 splits and put all of them in the 10 ring.

So much of an improvement I sent it off to magma port to have the APEX barrel ported to match the factory barrel. It made all the difference in the world. APEX service was outstanding, best I've ever seen in a company and the end result is outstanding.

If you are pretty experienced and shoot well with other pistols, it's probably the gun not you. Get the APEX products, you won't be disappointed.
Nice. Which competitions are you shooting in?
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:45 PM
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I've only been competing in local matches near St. Louis MO. Done pretty good for being new to competition. Won a few times with my M and P and my EMP. Several of the outdoor matches have stopped for the next few months, so hope to start getting more involved when they start up.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:24 PM
Ballenxj Ballenxj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoo2tr View Post
Here's my target of before and after shot groups with the Apex Grade 9mm 5" Semi Drop In Barrel.
I'll have to take your word for it. For whatever reason, I cannot see your photos.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:36 PM
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Hmm, that's strange- I can see the pic embedded in my post when I view this thread. Sorry, not sure how to fix.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 427mach1 View Post
Apex aluminum trigger and forward set sear for a full-size M&P. It lightens the pull, gets rid of the grittiness, and improves the overall performance.
I'm a believer and have Apex triggers, sears and springs in my Shield 9 and my 9C. The Duty/Carry kit is a smooth and crisp 6 pounds and the FSS kit is 4.5 pounds.

The trigger is the first upgrade for accuracy, then sights, then barrel...

A F/S M&P 9 with Apex FSS kit and a good red dot sight is probably within a froghair of perfect without a fitted barrel.
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:10 PM
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My unmodified Shield 9mm at 7 yards. I just need a stronger wrist.

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Old 01-10-2017, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballenxj View Post
...I'd be happy with sub 4" groups at 25 yds, but being real I would probably be happy with sub 3" at 10 yds. Of course smaller would be better.
PS, this is a full size M&P 9.
The full size M&P is capable of this group size right out of the box.

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Originally Posted by Angus46 View Post
...I can shoot just about as fast as I can at 25 and keep them all in the head of a B-29 target.
That's amazing shooting! Please join us in this little exercise: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:39 PM
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a Shield, 7 yards.....thats good enough in my book.

The pistol is NOT a target pistol, its a defensive sidearm.
If you can do that at 25 yards, you have a keeper.

Want to shoot sub MOA or MOA......buy a dedicated marksman pistol

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My unmodified Shield 9mm at 7 yards. I just need a stronger wrist.

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Old 01-11-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
The full size M&P is capable of this group size right out of the box.
That wouldn't depend on what day of the week it was made would it? I've heard of some guns being poorly fitted right from the factory.
In my case though, it probably is me. I don't get to get out and shoot nearly as much as I used to.
As an aside, I took mine apart last night looking specifically for fit. Mine seems tight, so yeah, it's probably me.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:14 PM
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I have a 9mm Pro (4.25") and the only thing I did was putting a StormLake barrel in. Reason was a faster twist rate because 9x out of 10 I shoot 147gr.

It shoots great and the night sights are dead on from the factory. I don't see any other upgrade I want to do to this gun.

I think people have a tendency to "over engineer" things. There are soo many "fancy" upgrades available (just look at ZEV Glocks for instance) that really don't do much for accuracy and reliability. Please don't take it as lecturing the OP, it's just my observation.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:25 PM
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Default Accurized FS M&P 9mm

On my new FS I polished all moving parts and installed an Apex Flat Faced Trigger & Forward Set Sear Kit (100-054). The factory trigger was initially gritty and heavy--7.5#. While waiting for the Apex parts I polished everything and dry fired a couple of hundred times. The factory trigger smoothed out nicely and dropped to about 6.5#, but I replaced it anyway.

Ran 100 rounds of 115 FMJ through it for break-in. Then 20 rounds of my carry ammo, Barnes TAC-XPD 115 grn. to ensure function.



Then I used a good rest under the trigger guard and at the bottom of the grip, carefully aligned the factory sights at 7 yards, and worked the 4.25# Apex trigger without disturbing the sight picture 5 times, and got this:



That's the OEM 4.25" barrel with only a little polishing on the barrel/slide engagement surfaces, no fitting except perhaps by the S&W assembler. <.75". I haven't tried it at 25 yards because my eye sight is not good enough.

The gun is capable of greater accuracy than I OTB. I do believe the Apex trigger helped.

I found this graph from Apex helpful to understand that their trigger stroke is shorter as well as lighter, making more accurate shooting easier.


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Old 01-11-2017, 04:51 PM
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Hi CB3,

Excellent shooting!

You mentioned a 6.5# trigger pull. Based on the trigger and trigger kit you installed, I'd say you placed the "Green spring" into the trigger.
If you want a little lighter trigger pull, using the "Silver Spring" will take off another 2 lbs or so. That is what I have in mine, and love it.

Take care and good shooting, :-)
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rett Skutt View Post
Hi CB3,

Excellent shooting!

You mentioned a 6.5# trigger pull. Based on the trigger and trigger kit you installed, I'd say you placed the "Green spring" into the trigger.
If you want a little lighter trigger pull, using the "Silver Spring" will take off another 2 lbs or so. That is what I have in mine, and love it.

Take care and good shooting, :-)
I was unclear. Sorry. 6.5# was the factory trigger after polishing and dry firing. The Apex is 4.25#.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
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I was unclear. Sorry. 6.5# was the factory trigger after polishing and dry firing. The Apex is 4.25#.
Mine came in right at 4.5 lbs with the lighter spring.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:57 PM
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I'll have to take your word for it. For whatever reason, I cannot see your photos.
You need to upload it to this site.

I suspect your dropbox account needs some kind of password or existing cookie on a machine attempting to access the picture OR dropbox wants to do something not permitted by most basic security settings.

If I click on the image icon dropbox comes back with this:

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Error (403)
It seems you don't belong here! You should probably sign in. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
The full size M&P is capable of this group size right out of the box.

That's amazing shooting! Please join us in this little exercise: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet
I took a look at it. I'll give it a try next time. That is outstanding shooting. To maintain a sub 2" group at POA is about as good as it gets. I don't do a ton of shooting for group size unless I'm working up a load, then it's usually from the bench. Most of what I try to work on is acquiring the target and quick first shot, follow up shots and transitions while maintaining group sizes. Don't think I can beat a 1.68" group but it will be fun to try.

I have a pic from a few times go when I worked on my speed and recoil control. 10 shots as fast as I can shoot. This past weekend I did a bit better with a higher X count, but basically the same group.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:10 PM
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That wouldn't depend on what day of the week it was made would it?
No, I believe the spec is 3" at 25 yards. They don't list this anywhere, but it's what they'll tell you if you believe you have accuracy issues with the gun.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:12 AM
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The first generation M&P had problems. The newer ones are more consistent. If you get a new one and it's not up to snuff S&W will fix it.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:13 AM
Ballenxj Ballenxj is offline
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The first generation M&P had problems. The newer ones are more consistent. If you get a new one and it's not up to snuff S&W will fix it.
Mine is one of the newer ones with the one in ten rate of twist. Three years old maybe. Next time I go to the range I'll have to try it at seven yards instead of my usual ten to twenty five. Honestly though, I did better with both Rugers, and both are short barrel guns. LC9, and SP101, both were fired double action, with no choice on the LC9 which is unmodified. Actually, neither is modified, just well used. It still could be me favoring those two as I'm more used to them? I'm old school.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:20 PM
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It still could be me favoring those two as I'm more used to them?
Indeed, this is the most likely answer.

Have you shot it from a rest? If not, start there. You have to find out what the gun shoots like without your influence. The only way to do this is to shoot from rest. Then you can work on making it better.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Indeed, this is the most likely answer.

Have you shot it from a rest? If not, start there. You have to find out what the gun shoots like without your influence. The only way to do this is to shoot from rest. Then you can work on making it better.
I have not rested the gun yet, but I think that's a good idea. I will do that next time out.
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Old 01-14-2017, 05:34 PM
Angus46 Angus46 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
The full size M&P is capable of this group size right out of the box.

That's amazing shooting! Please join us in this little exercise: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet
Gave it a try with both my M and P and 686. Posted it on that thread. Didn't beat you with my M and P but think I got you by a bit with the old 686!!!

Last edited by Angus46; 01-14-2017 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 01-15-2017, 08:48 PM
Ballenxj Ballenxj is offline
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Didn't beat you with my M and P but think I got you by a bit with the old 686!!!
Haven't shot a 686, but if it's anything like my old Model 19, that's entirely believable.
I've always liked wheel guns.
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:53 PM
palmettostate1 palmettostate1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
No, I believe the spec is 3" at 25 yards. They don't list this anywhere, but it's what they'll tell you if you believe you have accuracy issues with the gun.
I believe it is page 41 of the Shield manual.
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Old 01-15-2017, 10:50 PM
Ballenxj Ballenxj is offline
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Originally Posted by palmettostate1 View Post
I believe it is page 41 of the Shield manual.
If a Shield can do that, surely a full size should have no problem with at least matching that?
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Old 01-16-2017, 02:31 AM
Scooter1911 Scooter1911 is offline
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I saw a video from apex where Randy Lee said the accuracy problems was from the guns early unlock and lack of barrel support as the bullet exited the barrel?
Has smith fixed this?
I'm very close between the m&p, vp9 and sig 320. I had an m&p 45 that would group with my 1911 if I did my part. Just find the 9 fs reputation for accuracy disconcerting
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