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  #51  
Old 02-16-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
Why? Really? Because people aren’t perfect — That’s why! Mistakes do happen, and sometimes even the best of gunmen can become either: careless, distracted, or forgetful.
This quite true. Sometimes people even forget to bring a gun to a gunfight and instead show up with an empty holster. I don't know, if I couldn't even remember to bring a gun I'd really question whether I'd remember to use a safety.

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I’ve lived and worked with men who were in every sense of the expression, ‘blooded’ protagonists and very good with guns. In more than 50 year’s time, I never heard so much as one of them refer to a pistol safety as being anything even close to a user-impediment that a gunman has to learn how to work around — Not one, myself included!
Are you including yourself in that set of blooded protagonists?

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This sort of pseudo-technical gun palaver is much too frequently all over the internet; and, then, it’s most often posted by, ‘cyberspace heroes’ along with other IGF wannabes who’ve never, ‘been there or done that’ when things were unexpected, up close and personal, and ‘one on one’ at anytime — anytime — in their entire lives!
Have you ever "been there" or "done that"
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:47 PM
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and by anyone's numbers....accidental discharges, far outweigh, failed self defense because the defender forgot the safety.
How would you quantify this? Please show your work
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:12 PM
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Things happen. If my gun by chance gets in someone else hands I think most people would pull the trigger and not think twice about how to take a hefty off. Remember the reason for a series 80 1911 was because if they fell the firing pin could still hit the primer even with the safety on. I think Ruger recalled it's LCP's because of this issue as well.

Its and option like 4wheel drive. I don't have to use it, I don't always use it, but I might as well get it.

Mainly because if there is an accidental discharge there are a couple of big arteries a bully will be way to close to, not to mention I like my private parts. Heck, I'd hate to lose my best friend.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:15 PM
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I carry exclusively striker fired pistols without a safety and I have some very specific reasons why.
1. I personally have forgot to flip the safety off my 1911 under zero stress on the range I don't care to risk that in the real world.

2. I have personally disabled a firearm by accidentally engaging the safety/ decocker during a tap, rack, roll exercise on the range under some (but nothing like walking around a corner and running smack into a bad guy) stress. Again, I don't care to risk that in the real world.

3. I have personally witnessed a new shooter who was unable to get a proper firing grip on her Springfield XD and as a result was unable to fire it. Again, not a risk I care to take.


I want to be careful with my phrasing because I do want to claim (or even artfully imply) that I'm a "blooded protagonist" but I have carried a gun for a living and I have had to use a gun in self defense (no shots fired) and the very first time I did I panicked. It was every thing I could do to even remember to point the gun at the guy and you can forget about manipulating a safety. When I worked as a security guard for the city (not trying to put that job anywhere near on par with a police officer) my duties required me to go looking for trouble and I spent a lot of time dealing with tweakers in the middle of the night and even with experience I still got that dry mouth, heart pounding, tunnel vision feeling every time it happened and I was very glad that I didn't have an extraneous controls to deal with on my gun.
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:30 PM
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Only thing I have left with a safety is a 1911.
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:49 PM
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Well if you have concerns about accidental discharge or you feel more comfortable with a safety then sure and this is a personal choice. If you have a gun with a safety and train with it it's not a big deal. Now if you have shot striker fired guns with no safety other than the trigger mechanism then you could ha e some issues and would suggest plenty of time training before you carry the gun to make sure things are working right. Now if you carry a 1911 well you will get very good at working that safety and with more training it becomes second nature...
  #57  
Old 02-16-2017, 08:45 PM
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Refer: Post #51 of this thread ~

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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
This quite true. Sometimes people even forget to bring a gun to a gunfight and instead show up with an empty holster. I don't know, if I couldn't even remember to bring a gun I'd really question whether I'd remember to use a safety.

Are you including yourself in that set of blooded protagonists?

Have you ever "been there" or "done that"
You know, this is starting to get ugly! Look at the PM this guy sent me today.

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Originally Posted by Smoke
Why do you feel such a need to pretend you're something you’re not?

You’ve never been any closer to a gun fight than a John Wayne movie and when you were you didn't even remember to bring a gun.

Just so you know every time you claim it, I’m going to call you on it
Know what, Junior? I'm not going to take the bait. You're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe; but I will tell you for a fact that I'm too old, and too close to God now to be anywhere near as stupid as you and post either lies or unfounded accusations about someone else on anybody's internet gun forum.

You obviously can't understand the root motivation of someone like me. I'm not going to be here for that much longer; and, before I pass on into, 'the next life', I'd like to leave, at least, a little something of who I am, as well as what I've learned about salient topics like: God, guns, knives, the Holy Bible, and both intellectual and physical confrontation.

I actually DO know quite a bit about these several topics; in fact, I've often been chided by people who know me well for being something of a, 'dirt magnet'; and, know what? I can't really argue the point — Even my wife thinks that these people are correct! Filthy minds, blown up egos, and filthy people DO, indeed, seem to be too frequently attracted to whatever locus I happen to be in.

Truth be told: I AM, for a fact, a man who's had numerous extraordinary friends, acquaintances, and unusual life experiences. I was raised by military men (Most of whom were United States Marines; and these men were, all, most assuredly, 'blooded'.

In more recent years my lifelong close association with: guns, knives, and various martial arts has brought me into close contact with more military men as well as other government agents — Most, if not all, of whom were also well experienced, 'blooded' personnel; but this — and no more — is as much as you're going to get out of me on anybody's public internet venue.

If you don't believe me, who cares! That's perfectly fine with me. You seem to forget that I don't answer to you; and I strongly suspect that when it comes to being, 'a man' you're not fit to so much as, 'lick my boots'. As for myself? I live by certain principles; principles which I highly regard and doubt you would understand. Among others, my personal scruples include such biblical expressions as:

'But I say unto you, that every idle word that a man shall speak, he shall give account thereof on the Day of Judgment.' (I really truly believe this; and I think it's too bad that you don't.)

'Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam in thine own eye; and, then, thou shalt see clearly enough to cast out the mote in thy brother's eye.' (I'm sure you get the idea and, perhaps, even feel a little bit of déjà vu!)

And one of my own personal favorites: 'He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a hungry wolf by its ears.'

You need to grow up, Junior. You're not in public school anymore; and, unless you still live at home with your parents, you're not always going to be able to throw a little, 'hissy fit' every time you want your own way. You're in the big bad real world, now; and you need to start thinking and acting that way.

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  #58  
Old 02-16-2017, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
As we have been known to say on this forum -"It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need one and not have it". Same applies to safeties IMO.
I don't agree with this applying to thumb safeties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobzGuns View Post
External Hammer Fire Semi-Autos kept Cocked & Locked (1911 etc) NEED an external Safety.
They don't need a thumb safety any more than the M&P needs a thumb safety. Let's explore this:

1911 Round in the chamber -
Thumb safety off - if the hammer falls, it lands on the half cock position; gun doesn't fire.
If the trigger is pressed, it won't move unless the grip safety is pressed; gun doesn't fire.

M&P Round in the chamber -
Thumb safety off - if the striker comes loose from the sear, the striker block prevents the striker from striking the primer; gun doesn't fire.

In both cases, the trigger must be pressed and held to the rear during the firing cycle or the gun won't fire. Neither needs a thumb safety. On the M&P it only prevents trigger movement. On the 1911 it blocks the sear and prevents the hammer from moving. So, the thumb safety is completely superfluous on the M&P, but adds a small amount of extra safety on the 1911. The M&P will fire regardless of the grip, but the 1911 has an automatic safety in the grip safety.
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  #59  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:21 PM
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First off, I'll say that I have been a revolver shooter for 50+ years.

My first semi-auto was a Colt 1911A1. The old Marine who taught me how to shoot it always stressed the safety and how it is so easy to thumb sweep it when withdrawing. We weren't in "combat conditions" and that's just hw he taught me. My second semi-auto was a SR9 - old ways are hard to break and that had a safety - easy enough to thumb sweep.

My next was the 9mm Shield - yep - got it with a thug safety. Right now, it rotates with my Smith Model 36 snub - which of course is a 5 shot J frame and has a hammer block so it is always loaded full. After all, it's a revolver . . right?

BUT . . . my thinking has certainly changed since I am getting more familiar with semi-autos. A little background on that. Many years ago, while responding to an ambulance call, it turned in to a bad situation and I was shot at - and I felt it go past my ear lobe. My point . . I know what it is like to be shot at and I well remember the adrenaline kicking in and how I reacted to it. Fast forward to the past few years. I have had several situations that could have turned ugly. Twice, being accosted in a large parking lot in a city in the middle of the day - a guy who was high on drugs and another who was drunk and insisting I was going to give him cash for "gas". Fortunately, I was able to defuse the situations. Then, while at home (and I live in a relative rural area and always a safe area, two heroin addicts came to my house out in the country and one went to the front door and the other to the back door to see if anyone was home. I was in the basement and fortunately, the dogs barked and I came upstairs. As soon as they saw me, one went back to the car and got in. The other tried to talk their way out of why they were there. I advised them to leave and never come back and relined the individual that most of us "carry in the country". Had they broken in and I had come upstairs and surprised them, I have no doubt that they would have over powered me and I may have lost my life. Two days later, they were arrested for a long series of break ins and thefts of guns, jewelry, etc. in three different counties.

My point? Just that experience taught me the importance of carrying in a safe manner but also in a manner that I could quickly draw and use a weapon if my life were in danger without having to think about a safety or sweeping one. Now, the safety on my Shield is always "off". Most people think of a SD situation as being with a "single prp" - a big misconception and a big mistake. I now longer feel that (for me) a 5 shot J frame is sufficient and I am stepping up to a double stack compact 45ac. But, it will not have a safety that needs to be swept off.

And let's face it - carrying that way is no different than carrying a double action revolver with the cylinder full. I use a Fobus OWB holster for all my carry guns and the trigger is always covered and the holster retains well but is still easy to draw from if necessary.

I'm and "old dog" but not so old that I can't learn new tricks and new ways of doing things.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:19 AM
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When I first started carrying, I felt a safety provided a little extra safety to help make up for my inexperience. As I learned more about firing systems and gained experience, I now base my decision on whether to have a safety on specific gun. My normal carry that is DAO with hammer, I don't feel the need for a safety. My pocket gun that is SAO, I feel the safety is a requirement because of the short, light trigger.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:14 PM
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I would suspect that more gun owners (a lot more) have had ND/AD than have used their weapon in self defense. That's why I prefer them, possibly saving me from a brain fart......NO one is immune, no matter how "trained" you think you are.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Maxshield View Post
I would suspect that more gun owners (a lot more) have had ND/AD than have used their weapon in self defense. That's why I prefer them, possibly saving me from a brain fart......NO one is immune, no matter how "trained" you think you are.
I wholeheartedly agree with your first and last sentence.

However, would you carry a revolver that doesn't have a manual safety?

What would be the distinction between carrying a DAO revolver and a Glock equipped with an NY trigger?
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:55 PM
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Here is what works for me; I used to carry 3rd gen Smiths and got used to throwing the safety up/forward. Got myself a new Shield w/safety and could not remember safety up or down when I heard a bump in the night. So the Shield went to the safe and the 3913 got re-lamped and serves in the bedroom.
Maybe its the striker, maybe its the plastic but I like the old way.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
Why? Really? Because people aren’t perfect — That’s why! Mistakes do happen, and sometimes even the best of gunmen can become either: careless, distracted, or forgetful. Such waning personal ability comes with age, too. However, ‘good’ someone is with a gun, today, he absolutely positively will NOT still be (if, of course, he continues breathing) in, say, another 20 or 30 years from right now; or, who knows, perhaps in even less time!

Me? I’ve been shooting and handling guns for more than 50 years, now. In all that time, though, I’ve never been slowed down by the existence of a discretionary user-applied safety on any gun I’ve ever used; and I KNOW that there have been times when a gun’s safety (other than a silly uncomfortable lever on a trigger’s face) has prevented some sort of handling mistake from taking place.

Needless to say I do NOT consider the argument that a gun safety is an impediment which a shooter has to learn how to work around to be a valid criticism. Like most things in life there are also a lot of screwy ideas on internet gun forums; and, as machismo and alluring as it might appear, THIS ill-informed idea is, in my considered opinion, one of them.

I’ve lived and worked with men who were in every sense of the expression, ‘blooded’ protagonists and very good with guns. In more than 50 year’s time, I never heard so much as one of them refer to a pistol safety as being anything even close to a user-impediment that a gunman has to learn how to work around — Not one, myself included!

This sort of pseudo-technical gun palaver is much too frequently all over the internet; and, then, it’s most often posted by, ‘cyberspace heroes’ along with other IGF wannabes who’ve never, ‘been there or done that’ when things were unexpected, up close and personal, and ‘one on one’ at anytime — anytime — in their entire lives!

Sadly, however, THIS is what so very many young, ‘budding IGF pistoleros’ are being led to accept as being valid and useful information. (Which it’s NOT!) If a pistolero is properly trained, and regularly practice then, believe me, a discretionary safety on his pistol won’t slow him down or impede his survival in any way.

A lack of personal awareness might; uncontrolled emotional fear might, or mental (politically correct) hesitancy might; but, the proper (instinctive) manipulation of a user-applied gun safety will not; nor, has it ever in any real life firearm self-defense scenario with which I am familiar. (Fortunately for the rest of us the Fredo Corleone’s of this world are always unfamiliar with how their weapons really work, and unpracticed to the point of being inept!)

THAT sort of pseudo-technical nonsense only appears on internet gun forums; and with the ever increasing popularity of striker-fired plastic pistols the myth that handguns don’t need a REAL SAFETY on them has only continued to grow, and grow, and grow; but, that doesn’t mean it’s true — Only that it’s popularly believed!
So you are saying a safety is needed because people make mistakes but those same people will never forget to take the safety off in a time of need? Hmm something is wrong with that argument.

Personally I despise the firearms I own that have safeties. Safeties are a useless "feel good" measure IMO that just make people practice unsafe handling techniques because "the safety is on and the gun can't fire"
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:22 PM
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Here is what works for me; I used to carry 3rd gen Smiths and got used to throwing the safety up/forward.
Yes, they call it a safety, but it's mostly a decocker. This should not be an issue because this is how a 3rd Gen gun should be carried/ready:
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by amcline82 View Post
For those of you who carry open or concel and that have a model with a safety why did you choose it with a safety?
As a couple of others have noted, I use the safety in case someone else gets my firearm. At the range, I practice like I carry, so I draw and flick the safety off as the gun comes up.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:24 PM
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I guess I should answer the OP's question directly:

I use the thumb safety on a 1911 because that's what they come with and that's how I've trained.
If I had a gun with a decocker/safety, it would be used decocked and safety off. That's how they're intended to be used.

The S&W M&P doesn't need a thumb safety. So, I wouldn't worry about it being on or off. My grip would ensure it's off when needed so it's not an issue.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:19 PM
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I've posted this before but my first handgun was a Third Gen Model 915. When it came to handguns I was green. I knew nothing. I'm not sure Glocks existed but if they did I thought they were invisible to X-rays.

At the time I thought the proper way to carry a handgun was in a holster with the retention strap between the hammer and firing pin because that's what I saw people doing with their 1911s.

Long story short, I carried my 915 cocked with no safety for several months until someone explained to me that the gun was meant to be carried decocked (I didn't even know that was a thing) and I started carrying it that way.

My point is that in all that time the gun never discharged on its own or even due to any negligent action on my part. Not on holstering not on the draw. I think this is because if the Army taught me nothing else they beat DO NOT PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU'RE READY TO SHOOT.

I've carried TDAs (third gens/CZs) from 95 to 14 with no NDs and striker fired since without incident. I really think it's much ado about nothing
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:18 PM
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I am new to the M&P. I'm picking up a M&P 9 2.0 , no thumb safety on Monday. Though I did own a Bodyguard .380 before it was in the M&P family which I sold a few years back. I have always prefered no safety for every day carry, and have always carried Glocks. However as a night stand gun I keep a Beretta 92. I figure if I get roused from sleep at night and I have to reach for my firearm half asleep I wan't to reduce the chance of an accidental discharge.

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Old 02-17-2017, 10:38 PM
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This dumb argument goes round and round. And there are always the chairborne rangers who have to chime in with the "safeties will get you killed" and "get some training". They don't know that they might be making those dumb comments to guys with half a century of gun handling.

This same topic came up on a different forum a few years ago. Same super confident pistolero says "safeties will get you killed. Take a class, people". Such an arrogance about him. So with a few questions, this guy, who was "trained by a former Marine", admitted to carrying a Beretta PX4 with hammer back, and safety OFF. Says his "teacher" says it is no different than a Glock.

Show me ONE case where a safety got somebody killed. I'll show you 50 where it saved somebody.

And comparing a Glock to a DA revolver just shows your ignorance. 5 pound striker vs 9 pound hammer? Please! Ever wonder why the term "Glock Leg"
Was invented? Before Glock graced the world with its presence, millions
Of people Carrie semi autos with safeties. How ever did they survive?
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:51 PM
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Chairborne Ranger. Funny.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:04 AM
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This dumb argument goes round and round. And there are always the chairborne rangers who have to chime in with the "safeties will get you killed" and "get some training". They don't know that they might be making those dumb comments to guys with half a century of gun handling.

This same topic came up on a different forum a few years ago. Same super confident pistolero says "safeties will get you killed. Take a class, people". Such an arrogance about him. So with a few questions, this guy, who was "trained by a former Marine", admitted to carrying a Beretta PX4 with hammer back, and safety OFF. Says his "teacher" says it is no different than a Glock.

Show me ONE case where a safety got somebody killed. I'll show you 50 where it saved somebody.

And comparing a Glock to a DA revolver just shows your ignorance. 5 pound striker vs 9 pound hammer? Please! Ever wonder why the term "Glock Leg"
Was invented? Before Glock graced the world with its presence, millions
Of people Carrie semi autos with safeties. How ever did they survive?
Just out of curiosity, how much Force on Force did you do in those 50 years. How many ECQ evos? I've seen folks miss safeties in training, so have a lot of other instructors. If it happens in training simulations, I have to assume it can happen in an actual defense scenario.

How many people were killed because they fumbled with a safety? I don't know, because they are dead, so it's kind of hard to ask them. Civilian stats are scarce in numbers and details about such things.

You state you can produce 50 cases where a manual safety saved someone. Produce them, I would like to see them. Just the ones involving armed civilians though, since I'm pretty sure that is what we are discussing.

With regards to LEO's, I actually see some advantages to a manual safety even though I think the cons still outweigh the pros, but I don't believe police work is what we are talking about here and even so, why are so many PD's now issuing guns sans safeties? Have they possibly learned something in the past 50 years? The FBI even mandated their new sidearm not have one.

I think comparing a Glock equipped with an NY trigger to a revolver is perfectly valid. Trigger pull weight is pretty much equivalent.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
Just out of curiosity, how much Force on Force did you do in those 50 years. How many ECQ evos? I've seen folks miss safeties in training, so have a lot of other instructors. If it happens in training simulations, I have to assume it can happen in an actual defense scenario.

How many people were killed because they fumbled with a safety? I don't know, because they are dead, so it's kind of hard to ask them. Civilian stats are scarce in numbers and details about such things.

You state you can produce 50 cases where a manual safety saved someone. Produce them, I would like to see them. Just the ones involving armed civilians though, since I'm pretty sure that is what we are discussing.

With regards to LEO's, I actually see some advantages to a manual safety even though I think the cons still outweigh the pros, but I don't believe police work is what we are talking about here and even so, why are so many PD's now issuing guns sans safeties? Have they possibly learned something in the past 50 years? The FBI even mandated their new sidearm not have one.

I think comparing a Glock equipped with an NY trigger to a revolver is perfectly valid. Trigger pull weight is pretty much equivalent.
I don't have 50 years. Little over 25. I said some people here who regularly carry with a safety have 50 years.

Produce 50 cases? Just google them. Two years ago, 2 year old kills
Mother when he got hold of her Shield. Everybody who failed to
Disengage a safety is dead? Really? Produce those stats, then.

NY trigger on a Glock is not the same as a revolver.

So those guys playing gun games under no life or
Death stress forget to take a safety off? So they're not perfect? Makes you
Wonder if they should be handling a gun at all? Do you
Forget to press the brake pedal before you shift into gear?

I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, forgot to disengage the safety in a life or death situation. But way more have been saved.

And I could post a dozen, right off the top of my head. But your just say "but they violated the other rules of safety", which is true. Because they made a mistake. Because they're human. And manual safeties make those less likely to result in injury or death.

And I'm sorry, but your terminology just proves my point. Force on Force? ECG Evos? You ever pull a weapon in a real self defense scenario? Who talks like that?

Why does the FBI and cops use Glocks? Because they're cheap and they generally work. Why did the US Army force Sig to put a manual safety on the new 320?

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Old 02-18-2017, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Brasky View Post
So you are saying a safety is needed because people make mistakes but those same people will never forget to take the safety off in a time of need? Hmm something is wrong with that argument.

Personally I despise the firearms I own that have safeties. Safeties are a useless "feel good" measure IMO that just make people practice unsafe handling techniques because "the safety is on and the gun can't fire"
Naturally I beg to differ. I don't think there's anything wrong with, 'the argument'; I think there's something wrong with your comprehension and interpretation of what I said.

(But, hey, this is the internet: A place where the loudest, the most adamant, the most strident, or the most often repeated opinion is frequently misconstrued as being correct.)
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Old 02-18-2017, 07:36 AM
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I always hear the "do you need a safety on a revolver? Then why do you need one on a semi auto? It's the same thing". They're not the same thing. Totally different operating systems. No revolvers other than some obscure Russian WW II one ever came with a safety. But before Glock came along, the vast majority of semi autos had them. MILLIONS of us people carried them with no problems. We don't hear about them saving lives very often, because if they saved a life or prevented an AD/ND, there's nothing to report. The shooter goes "whew. That was stupid of me" and hopefully doesn't make the same mistake.

On a striker, I insist on them. Light trigger and no hammer to rest my thumb on as I holster? No thanks. They're most beneficial when reholstering, especially under stress. Plaxicos o Burris wouldn't have put a hole in his
Leg if he had a Ruger SR9 with a safety on instead of a Glock without one
Yes, he should have had a proper holster. But he didn't. Because he's human.

99% of gun handling is routine and not life threatening. So I am more concerned with a brain fart than using it in life or death. But if you practice with your weapon, it becomes automatic. 10 minutes a night drawing and flicking safety off is not such a commitment. As for guys at gun games screwing up, many people at those are inexperienced. IDPA has become very popular.

Shooting 25 years. Never forgot to take safety off. Just like i never forgot to
Step on the brake before shifting into gear.
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:06 AM
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i just shot myself - Google Search


I can't hot link to the video about because there's some language in it.

The guy in the video managed to shoot himself with a Kimber 1911 (2 external safeties). I guess this is a case of Kimber leg?

Why do these threads always become opinion measuring contests with the "blded protagonists" with the smallest opinions being the most willing the measure them?

I'm not stupid if I choose to carry a handgun without a safety any more than I'm retarded if I choose to open carry. The people in this thread who choose not to use a firearm with a safety seem to have made their case without resorting to name calling.

I have had training and I really have had to use a gun in self defense and I don't have any extra holes in me and neither does the bad guy or the bear although the squirrel came pretty close.

I don't believe that anyone has never, not one time ever forgot to sweep the safety off, I don't buy it.

Bottom line. It's your life, you make the choices, you live with the consequences
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:55 AM
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I grew up in the 1911 world which required a safety to be carried "cocked and locked" so for many years I had the muscle memory developed that presenting the firearm meant deactivating the safety.

I also carried a snubby as backup and that had no such thing. Now since my appreciation for decocker equipped 3rd gen Smiths I carry with the safety off, ready for a draw and fire without the need to sweep off the safety up to activate the pistol. The difference between sweeping the 1911 "down" and flicking the safety "up" on a S&W is significant and I don't want decades of 1911 deactivation of the safety to come back inadvertently in a high stress situation.

Now I favor DAO pistols to give me revolver-like operation. The biggest case I can make about a safety equipped firearm is the number of times myself and others have experienced the "flinch test" of forgetting to disengage the safety on the range. It is something I don't want to experience in a self defense situation.

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Old 02-18-2017, 11:00 AM
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Thanks for all the responses. I have my opinion on them but I am not going to get mad unlike some people (Arc Angel) for not share the same one. I had no intention on belittle anyone just want to see the responses.

It's all about choices you choose a Ruger instead of a Smith, you choose a shield without a safety its all up to you and no one has the right to tell you otherwise.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

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Old 02-18-2017, 01:57 PM
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Thanks for all the responses. I have my opinion on them but I am not going to get mad unlike some people (Arc Angel) for not share the same one. I had no intention on belittle anyone just want to see the responses.

It's all about choices you choose a Ruger instead of a Smith, you choose a shield without a safety its all up to you and no one has the right to tell you otherwise.

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Good summation
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Old 02-18-2017, 03:59 PM
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When CCW'ing a striker fire pistol, I prefer a thumb safety to ensure my safety, that I don't have an AD or a ND, especially in an IWB holster. OUCH that would hurt!
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Old 02-18-2017, 04:12 PM
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I prefer DA revolvers, and DA/SA autos that have hammers. I do not want safeties on them.

Striker fired autos are different. I want a safety on them. S&W is one of the few companies offering the option of a manual safety. I commend S&W for listening to people who have long wanted the option of a manual safety on their Glock, but Glock has ignored them.

The reason why is I pocket carry, and I think safety levers on triggers are an issue with that. If I was carrying in a holster that covered the trigger guard area completely, this would not bother me.

Please do not take the above that I am projecting this onto anyone else. This is MY personal preference. I'm not giving advice to anyone. You decide how you want to carry.

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Old 02-18-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
When CCW'ing a striker fire pistol, I prefer a thumb safety to ensure my safety, that I don't have an AD or a ND, especially in an IWB holster. OUCH that would hurt!
Same,

I've never gone out of my way, to get a safety version or not. Depended on stock, and my will to purchase the particular firearm that day. If it has it, I use it for carrying IWB. As it turns out, since my wife commandeered the Glock, all of my CCW IWB semi's have the safety. That item between my ears, just has a habit of swiping it off, as designed.
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Old 02-18-2017, 04:34 PM
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I don't have 50 years. Little over 25. I said some people here who regularly carry with a safety have 50 years.

Produce 50 cases? Just google them. Two years ago, 2 year old kills
Mother when he got hold of her Shield. Everybody who failed to
Disengage a safety is dead? Really? Produce those stats, then.

NY trigger on a Glock is not the same as a revolver.

So those guys playing gun games under no life or
Death stress forget to take a safety off? So they're not perfect? Makes you
Wonder if they should be handling a gun at all? Do you
Forget to press the brake pedal before you shift into gear?

I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, forgot to disengage the safety in a life or death situation. But way more have been saved.

And I could post a dozen, right off the top of my head. But your just say "but they violated the other rules of safety", which is true. Because they made a mistake. Because they're human. And manual safeties make those less likely to result in injury or death.

And I'm sorry, but your terminology just proves my point. Force on Force? ECG Evos? You ever pull a weapon in a real self defense scenario? Who talks like that?

Why does the FBI and cops use Glocks? Because they're cheap and they generally work. Why did the US Army force Sig to put a manual safety on the new 320?
What self-defense insight and knowledge does simply carrying a gun for 50 years impart? A lot of folks study and train for a couple of years and then just repeat the things they learned for the rest of their lives ignoring any new techniques, tactics and technologies no matter how overwhelmingly the evidence is that it is more effective than what they learned years ago.

My focus was only on the tactical points rather than on carrying and administrative handling and that is what I assumed you were referencing. I'm not putting a manual safety on my gun just in case a toddler gets ahold of it since there is no way I would ever allow that to happen. My guns are either concealed on my person, completely under my control, or they are locked up. Someone so irresponsible as to let a small child get ahold of their handgun cannot be expected to remember to engage a safety and/or frequently monitor it to make sure of its status.

A lot of folks have had an AD/ND with M1911's. Ted Nugent even mentioned having one in one his books. Stating that he could never figure out how it happened. He subsequently went back to carrying a revolver for a long time. A manual safety can sometimes be inadvertently disengaged. A heavier trigger pull in contrast is not something you can forget or fail to engage/disengage.

And if the trigger is considered too light that it requires a manual safety for carry, what about when the safety is off. As Massad Ayoob said... "Single action triggers are great shooting tools, but lousy threat management tools." It's very reasonable to assume you might have to hold an attacker at gunpoint, run with weapon in hand etc. and I wouldn't want to do any of that with a cocked M1911.

I carry a gun because I obviously believe it's possible I might have to use it in a life and death scenario, otherwise I would simply leave it at home. Low probability, High Stakes. It's a matter of striking a balance. No manual safety/heavy trigger strikes the right balance in my opinion.

Regarding civilian stats. Like I said before, they are scarce.There is no national database detailing these armed encounters. There are a few studies available like the 500 or so cases documented by The Armed Citizen, but it is by no means comprehensive. Plus, they only include successful outcomes. The incidents where the defender didn't get their gun out in time, couldn't access it, were disarmed or possibly even failed to disengage the safety were not and would not be included since they would simply be cases of assault, rape and murder.

I actually carry a S&W snub more often than anything else. No manual safety on it and none needed. How is a DAO revolver is so much safer than a Glock with an NY trigger installed? Different operating systems for sure, but my S&W snubs triggers are 12 lbs and the trigger travel is about 3/4 inch. My Glocks NY triggers are about 12 lbs and trigger travel is about 1/2 inch. I just don't see much difference there in terms of increased risk of unintentional discharge. And if someone thinks a NY Glock needs a safety lever, then they should feel the same about a revolver.

And it's not only about forgetting the safety, it's actually simply failing in the attempt to get it disengaged at all or in time. This is why I mentioned Force-on-Force, specifically ECQ. If you have never participated in it, then it can be difficult to understand the dynamics. Instead of hurling insults and disparaging it, maybe consider challenging your beliefs and go and take a class. It just might change your mind.

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Old 02-18-2017, 04:48 PM
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snipped

And if someone thinks a NY Glock needs a safety lever, then they should feel the same about a revolver.

And it's not only about forgetting the safety, it's actually simply failing in the attempt to get it disengaged at all or in time. This is why I mentioned Force-on-Force, specifically ECQ. If you have never participated in it, then it can be difficult to understand the dynamics. Instead of hurling insults and disparaging it, maybe consider challenging your beliefs and go and take a class. It just might change your mind.
Just as I said, at the beginning of this thread.....

Quote:
Quite frankly, I hope I don't have to muddle through another 50 pages of "the safety's between my ears", or something along the lines of "get more training, if you feel you need a safety".....
See where we are again? It's back to "get more training" (go & take a class). Well, that's where we are again. I'm still getting tired of the same oh, same oh..... when there is disagreement. The training bit, is just another disguised, physiological put down.

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Old 02-18-2017, 04:51 PM
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i just shot myself - Google Search


I can't hot link to the video about because there's some language in it.

The guy in the video managed to shoot himself with a Kimber 1911 (2 external safeties). I guess this is a case of Kimber leg?

Why do these threads always become opinion measuring contests with the "bl:ded protagonists" with the smallest opinions being the most willing the measure them?

I'm not stupid if I choose to carry a handgun without a safety any more than I'm retarded if I choose to open carry. The people in this thread who choose not to use a firearm with a safety seem to have made their case without resorting to name calling.

I have had training and I really have had to use a gun in self defense and I don't have any extra holes in me and neither does the bad guy or the bear although the squirrel came pretty close.

I don't believe that anyone has never, not one time ever forgot to sweep the safety off, I don't buy it.

Bottom line. It's your life, you make the choices, you live with the consequences

The guy in that video is an idiot. "I resorted to my
training and called my mother". But even he is not a good example because he was trying to quick draw and the holster is what allowed the weapon to fire.

Carry what you want. I don't care. Just don't label a manual safety as an impediment. It's not. As
For take a class, why? I went through a police academy. I don't need a class to instill the habit of disengaging a safety. 10 minutes a night and it's no different than stepping on a brake before shifting or any other movement we all do automatically. Ironically, Glock actually uses the "so
Simple even a monkey can do it" as a selling point.

And nobody here is saying that a manual safety is an absolute guarantee that you will
Never have an ND. But it surely reduces those odds. As for your "I'll never leave a gun unattended comment, that's just arrogance. People get tired. Distracted. Nobody is immune from making a mistake. Overconfidence is the worst thing to have. Bill Jordan killed a fellow agent with his Model 19. Survivor of countless gunfights. World War II veteran. Professional shooter. Surely somebody that I would wager NOBODY here can come close to. But he screwed up and killed somebody he didn't want to. If he can make a mistake, you think you can't?

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Old 02-18-2017, 05:46 PM
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The "get more training" response is usually in the context that the individual in question simply lacks competence or confidence to carry a weapon safely with a round chambered without a safety.

I don't see my suggestion as such. My recommendation was specifically for ECQ Force on Force and in this specific instance, it is not to gain necessarily gain skill, but insight and to demonstrate that it is more difficult than you might imagine to consistently get the gun out and the safety disengaged in those types of scenarios. Practicing drawing and disengaging a safety at the the range or at home in a controlled environment is very different from doing so is a violent close-quarter scenario. It's like saying successfully driving in everyday traffic prepares you to jump in a NASCAR and effectively race in the Daytona 500. There is a night and day difference.

Police Academy instruction is severely lacking in regards to extreme close-quarters and handgun combatives, especially in years gone by and why so many LEO's have sought out additional training on their own.
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:00 PM
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The "get more training" response is usually in the context that the individual in question simply lacks competence or confidence to carry a weapon safely with a round chambered without a safety.

I don't see my suggestion as such. My recommendation was specifically for ECQ Force on Force and in this specific instance, it is not to gain necessarily gain skill, but insight and to demonstrate that it is more difficult than you might imagine to consistently get the gun out and the safety disengaged in those types of scenarios. Practicing drawing and disengaging a safety at the the range or at home in a controlled environment is very different from doing so is a violent close-quarter scenario. It's like saying successfully driving in everyday traffic prepares you to jump in a NASCAR and effectively race in the Daytona 500. There is a night and day difference.

Police Academy instruction is severely lacking in regards to extreme close-quarters and handgun combatives, especially in years gone by and why so many LEO's have sought out additional training on their own.
Police Academy is generally pretty basic when it comes to weapons. Yet, when the switch from revolver to semi auto happened in the late 80's, ND's did go up. So there goes your "Glocks are no different than revolvers".

Not alot of people are gonna pay for the training that 99.999% of us will never use. And it isn't really valid, anyway. Unless your instructors really DO bash a person in the head with a brick, stick a loaded gun in somebody's face, or attempt to rape a woman. Which I'm sure they don't. You can't recreate real life or death stress.

Driving the Daytona 500 is surely not the same as driving to Walmart. But I would wager every one of here has driven under extreme stress. I barely remeber the frantic drive to the hospital with my in labor wife screaming "the baby is coming out". But I somehow didn't forget to get the key in the ignition, step on the brake before shifting, and drive at high speed in the dark, while switching lanes around to get around those who weren't driving 85 mph like I was, and stopped at every light, before looking to make sure clear and going through it, then parking between the lines. And I'm no professional race car driver.

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Old 02-18-2017, 08:08 PM
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Police Academy is generally pretty basic when it comes to weapons. Yet, when the switch from revolver to semi auto happened in the late 80's, ND's did go up. So there goes your "Glocks are no different than revolvers".

Not alot of people are gonna pay for the training that 99.999% of us will never use. And it isn't really valid, anyway. Unless your instructors really DO bash a person in the head with a brick, stick a loaded gun in somebody's face, or attempt to rape a woman. Which I'm sure they don't. You can't recreate real life or death stress.

Driving the Daytona 500 is surely not the same as driving to Walmart. But I would wager every one of here has driven under extreme stress. I barely remeber the frantic drive to the hospital with my in labor wife screaming "the baby is coming out". But I somehow didn't forget to get the key in the ignition, step on the brake before shifting, and drive at high speed in the dark, while switching lanes around to get around those who weren't driving 85 mph like I was, and stopped at every light, before looking to make sure clear and going through it, then parking between the lines. And I'm no professional race car driver.
There was an initial increase in ND's during the transition from Revolvers to Glock, but the solution was better training and installation of the NY trigger, not a manual safety. It's still the same today. Standards Glocks are different from revolvers in terms of risks(higher) of unintentional discharges as far as I'm concerned, but Glocks with NY triggers are not IMO.

No one will ever uses ECQ skills? Almost every man I've ever known has been in at least a fist fight in their life, so those skills are almost certain to be useful to some degree at some point. And if involved in a scenario warranting a deadly force response, it will most likely occur at very close range. ECQ Force-on-Force training is conducted at varying intensities including full contact, usually wearing quality protective gear by at least one of participants. It is a fairly accurate and realistic simulation of the dynamics if conducted properly. At the very least, it's better than any other training method currently being done.

Your statement that since "you can't recreate real life and death stress" completely undermines your assertion that because you have practiced operating your safety in training, you will be able to do so in a real defense encounter.

And saying that close-quarter training is somehow invalid unless "you really DO bash a person in the head with a brick, stick a loaded in somebody's face, or attempt to rape a women" is absurd. I'm surprised a Police Officer would make such a statement. If this was true, all training is a waste of time including all firearm training unless you are actually shooting someone or getting shot. Plus it kind of contradicts the whole directive of self-defense, which is to avoid serious injury.

And again, it's not about forgetting the safety, it's attempting to disengage it, but physically failing to do so. In your frantic drive to the hospital, nothing was all that different except the added stress. A better analogy would be an assailant in the passenger seat trying to punch your head in and seeing how well you are able to drive.

I would agree that a handgun equipped with a manual safety is indeed safer in terms of preventing unintentional discharges, but I also know it to be a potential impediment in a reactive defensive response, particular one occuring at close-quarters. Not necessary an impediment all the time, every time, but a potential one nonetheless. I don't think it's worth it as a heavier trigger is a sufficient safeguard.

Last edited by Mister X; 02-19-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:19 PM
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I got the Shield with a safety because when I go to the gym I throw it in my gym bag and could possibly fall out of the holster and snag on something.
When I carry on body Safety is off
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:43 PM
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Ever watch a train wreck? The very title of this thread made it obvious that it was going to be the same kind of spectacle. Not sure why it always has to digress into an argument.
Whatever happened to the idea of "carry what you want how you want"?
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
Ever watch a train wreck? The very title of this thread made it obvious that it was going to be the same kind of spectacle. Not sure why it always has to digress into an argument.
Whatever happened to the idea of "carry what you want how you want"?
If that was the case then a lot of forums would have no members.
We all know at least once or twice a year maybe more there will be another post asking about GUN LUBES also.
No since in hashing over such things but that's why we're all here.
For discussion.

Best thing to do if it makes you mad? Don't read it.

But it's like a train wreck. You have to look. LOL

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Old 02-19-2017, 09:17 AM
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The New York trigger doesn't fix anything. Your startle response will still cause you to have a negligent discharge unless a trigger is so heavy you can't pull it, or your finger isn't on the trigger when it doesn't belong there. Police departments used to teach sights on target finger on trigger for revolvers. That is why Glocks had so many negligent discharges when they first came out. Now they teach finger off trigger until you're ready to fire. A cocked 1911 in many cases has a very short light trigger pull so it has a safety so you can manipulate the gun cocked without firing it. If John Browning didn't think the 1911 needed a safety he wouldn't have put it there. If a safety makes you feel better buy a gun with one and learn to use it. If not having a safety makes you feel better buy a gun without one and learn to use it. The important thing is proper trigger control.

Last edited by zymurgeist; 02-19-2017 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 09:20 AM
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Bought a 9 Shield and the safety confused me.
So I bought a 45 Shield without.
Yesterday I bought a M2.0 with safety. (nice gun)
All I am adding is buy what works for you at the time and be happy.
And I am warming up to plastic guns.
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Old 02-19-2017, 10:22 AM
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Bought a 9 Shield... I bought a 45 Shield.. I bought a M2.0 with safety... I am warming up to plastic guns.


I'll contribute to the "Train Wreck" of this thread (I for one have been in an actual train wreck, and an internet "train wreck" is not one).

Off the topic I know, but plastic is for squirt guns and I reject guns with them. Adding polymer injected molding parts to handguns has lowered the quality (and costs) across the board. It is the triumph of the bean counters over high quality craftsmanship. Further (and to be somewhat on topic) I think striker equipped weapons should have a safety present to avoid negligent discharge when handling (and the trigger thingy is not a safety).

Third generation Smiths are the pinnacle of semi automatic handguns, now lost to the plastic fantastics of modern weapons. It's a shame that Smith & Wesson has been forced to join in the degraded quality to stay cost competitive with the Glocks of today's handgun market.

Just an old curmudgeon's thoughts, you can ignore me as hopelessly old school if your opinion differs.

digiroc

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Old 02-19-2017, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zymurgeist View Post
If John Browning didn't think the 1911 needed a safety he wouldn't have put it there.
Ummmm, John Browning (APBHN) didn't put a safety on the 1911 until the Army demanded it
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Old 02-19-2017, 11:39 AM
ThrowinRocks ThrowinRocks is offline
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Possibly due to negligent dicharges? LOL
Not a 1911 fan myself.
Say for a nice one that holds 7,8 maybe 9 rounds $1200.00+
Polymer wonders that hold the same for $300.00 + for a good one?

All about choice and I choose polymer because I can own more that holds more rounds.
I don't recall seeing any local LEO's carrying 1911's.
just saying

Last edited by ThrowinRocks; 02-19-2017 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:46 PM
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Not sure why it always has to digress into an argument.
It's simple human nature.

There are those who simply cannot fathom any way other than their way. When someone has a different opinion, the response to that opinion is incredulity, followed by anger if the opinion isn't changed.

This is especially true when it comes to guns and safety. If a person thinks they are being safe (whether they are or not) they become offended/embarrassed if another person points out some safety infraction. Suggest that someone might need some training and the initial response is, "How dare you suggest that I don't know what I'm doing!" Even though no one actually said that, it's how people respond.

This thread is a perfect example. The OP asked why individuals wanted a safety on their gun. This in no way implies that safeties are good or bad. It's simple research into why people do what they do. However, once the question is asked, rather than take it at face value, most assume there is some hidden slight at the fact they do or don't have a thumb safety. It just happens, we read into things.

Add to that the "keyboard filter" and people are much more apt to say things they wouldn't in person. The internet allows people to be blunt because they don't have to deal with the recipient in person. They can make claims of prowess because they don't feel they have to back it up. If they were doing this face to face, what they know or skills they have would be readily apparent. So, the keyboard gives most extra courage to be more forceful in their opinion.

Welcome to the internet.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:49 PM
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If John Browning didn't think the 1911 needed a safety he wouldn't have put it there.
In fact, John Browning didn't think the 1911 needed a thumb safety. And in truth, it doesn't, but there it is.
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Old 02-19-2017, 01:26 PM
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Obviously, carrying a firearm with or without a safety is a personal choice. However, for over 100 years our Armed Forces have carried either the 1911 or Beretta M9 - both having manual safeties. With proper practice and familiarity a manual safety should not be an issue.
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Old 02-19-2017, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amcline82 View Post
For those of you who carry open or concel and that have a model with a safety why did you choose it with a safety? Don't want to know why others should have a safety just why you feel you need one?
Rarely use mine.
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