I am finding it almost impossible to shoot tight groups that compare to any groups from my 1911s. Before I spend too much time testing, I'd like to hear from shooters that know the limitations of this pistol very well. I hope that my ammo is just not living up to my expectations.

My 1911s (.45 ACP) will shoot 1.5" groups all day at 25 yards with my best 200 gr Hornady CT Match ammo. My M&P (.40 cal) shoots (5) shoot groups at 25 yards that are about 4.5" at best.

My .40 cal handloads use 165 gr ZERO HP bullets, and my starting load uses 4.7 gr of TiteGroup. I would like to find a load that is a good benchmark for accuracy to improve on.

My M&P has a Vortex/Venom sight and an Apex Trigger that feels impressive. What can I expect from this handgun, and what is considered a known accurate load. Is there any mods that can make the pistol tighten up the groups?

The M&P will NOT group like a 1911. It's like asking why a Corolla isn't as fast as a Porsche.
Two different guns made to do different things.

Second, how new, or not new, are you to guns? The 40 is snappy and not everyone can shoot it accurately.

Third. Have someone else shoot the gun to make sure it's not you

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Try 165 and 180 grain factory ammo, maybe a couple brands of each and see. Kinda not fair to compare match factory jacketed ammo to coated lead reloads. My 1911s will out shoot my m&ps all day. On the other hand I can dump the m&p in the dirt, shake it off and it'll still run, the 1911s, not so much.

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I've been a gunsmith for almost 40 years, and I can make almost any rifle or pistol outshoot anything made in a production factory. I've spent decades shooting at least one or two days a week, Including PPC and IPSC.

I own two .40 cal M&Ps, and two .40 cal Glocks. None of them have impressive accuracy. I do like the .40 caliber round, and I especially like the M&P handguns. However, it seems like they should be able to do better. Most shooters I come across seem to agree with this assessment . . . . not very accurate.

I was able to get one of my Glocks to shoot respectably with a Bar-Sto barrel and one particular 155 gr handload. Somebody out there must have an accuracy load or tips on what makes the M&P shoot accurately.

Deleted duplicate.

Innovative,
Out of town right now. But I've got some data for 5 or 6 SD and a couple of FMJ's I can share when back home from my shooting log. It is for an M&P Pro CORE .40 S&W, with a Trijicon RMR 06 mounted, and an Apex flat faced trigger with original M&P spring. So sighting and trigger control are not really an issue, and multi 5 shot groups off a bag rest at 25 yards.

I will highlight 2 things from my shooting. 1. My M&P really grouped 180 gr. bullets much better than any 165 gr. loads. This is the opposite of .40 results with other brand guns. 2. The best multi 5 shot group average was 2.1" with Hornady Critical Defense 175 gr. ammo. 2nd best was Federal HST 180 gr. at 2.6" group.

I will share more results next week.

If you want 1911 like accuracy from an M&P you'll probably need an APEX gunsmith fit barrel. You or the gunsmith will have to take the time to fit the barrel carefully with files, but supposedly they'll make an M&P shoot under 2" at 25 yards easily. Most stock M&P's are 4" guns at 25 yards, just the way the design is with loose tolerances. You might sacrifice some reliability with the APEX barrel, but if you do everything just right, maybe not.

Also I think most rack grade GI issue type 1911's weren't that much more accurate than stock M&P's it's just that the 1911's most Americans shoot today are semi-custom with fitted parts for pretty good accuracy, glocks and M&P's are closer to the old GI 1911's in that respect.

This is all good information. It confirms my thoughts on the M&P. I haven't heard of the APEX barrel upgrade. A fitted barrel might be just what it needs.

The M&P is still fairly new to me. It's always good to ask around on a new project to avoid having to re-invent the wheel. I'm sure someone out there has made their M&P shoot very accurately. Keep the info coming . . . .

Thanks

I have gone around the ring and back with .40 loads trying to get a good comp load that will shoot groups, not patterns. And no, it is not just the M&P, SD, Sigma, or whatever plastic fantastic you shoot, I have a Brn HP in .40 that is just as picky as the others.
I finally settled on 180gr FMJ loaded to 170 power factor over Titegroup for the semis. The bullet is critical, as I have a 180gr plated load for the .40 revolver that shoots great in the Model 646, but spreads over a foot at 15yds in the semis.
By the way, the Model 646 is the most accurate .40 S&W I have.
The STI long-throated competition guns I have shot are the most accurate .40 S&W semis I have shot. I think they might be on to something with their custom-fit long-throated barrels.

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From what I've read, apex is the way to go. Out of curiosity, have you tried any other weight bullets with the factory barrel? I'd try that and see how it looks, but you're probably not going to get what you want short of properly fitting a gunsmith fit barrel from Apex. My 40 seems to prefer the 180s, but isn't terrible with 165s. My M&P 9, does OK with the 115s and 124s but the 147s look like a 14" cylinder bore shotgun. YMMV.

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To my knowledge, APEX does not make a .40 S&W replacement barrel for M&P yet. (I just checked the website again.)

I'm pretty sure the factory barrel could be sleeved and fitted to the slide. However, for all the time and work it would take to get it done, it might not help at all.

Still looking to see if after market parts and/or spectacular handloads that are known to help the accuracy.

Innovative,
Overall my 4.25" M&P Pro CORE in .40 S&W is a 3-5" gun at 25 yds and a 7-9" gun at 50 yds. (careful 5 shot groups off bag rest). I had to really work to get sub-3" groups.

Here is some data I committed in an earlier post to share. You can see and I am sure there is some progression here too as I got much more familiar with the gun and changes. All data quoted is at 25 yd (unless otherwise noted) and off a bag rest:

AS IS (open sights)
5 different FMJ Brand/Bullet Weights @ 10 shot groups = 5.3-9"

ADDED TRIJICON RMR06
Fed American Eagle 180 gr FMJ = 3" (5 shot) & 4.6 (10 shot)
Federal Champion 180 gr FMJ (Avg. 2x10 shot groups) = 3.6"
Federal American Eagle 165 gr FMJ (1X10 shot group) = 5"
Hornady Critical Duty 175 gr. JHP (1x5 shot group) = 2.3"

ADDED APEX FLAT FACED TRIGGER (silver spring)
Rem Golden Saber 165 gr JHP(1x5) = 4.2"
Federal HST 165 gr JHP (1x5) = 4.2"
(But both of these above loads destabilized and had missing shots at 50 yds)

Federal HST 180 gr JHP (2x5) = 4.1"
Hornady Custom XTP 180 gr JHP (4x5) = 4.7"
Hornady Critical Duty 175 gr JHP (3x5) = 2.7"
(These 3 were stable enough to keep all shots on paper at 50 yds, typically 7-8" groups).

With the above set up, I still felt like I was occasionally edging a shot. (4 of 5 would be a nice round circle but 1 shot would edge out, even shooting very carefully and not calling out any as a flyer.) So I put the M&P original spring back in which lightened the trigger several more ounces (low 3 lb. range). Even though I've only measured groups with 2 ammos, I've shot a lot more and it seems to be the set up I want.

ORIGINAL M&P SPRING INSTALLED
Federal HST 180 gr. JHP (2x5) = 2.7"
Hornady Critical Duty 175 gr. (1x5) = 2.1"

I'm guessing this about maxes out what I will get out of this gun & barrel. From my experience, if you want something to benchmark your handloads against, try the Hornady Critical Duty 175 gr.. Across multiple setups, and days shooting, this one always popped out the best at 25 yards. And for FMJ, try the Federal American Eagle or Champion 180 gr.

Ron . . . .

That's good info. JHPs will almost always beat FMJs. Your 2"-3" (5) shot groups at 25 yds are better than I've been able to get - so far.

If I can consistently get groups that good . . . . I might be satisfied . . . . maybe . . . . almost.

I retained my OEM trigger spring too. I don't see any reason not to use it. It makes my trigger 4 oz lighter (3.4 lbs), and spring is 100% reliable.

Thanks for all the input. I have been trying to get to the range for the last 10 days with no luck. I'll test a few different JHPs and report back. If necessary, I'll sleeve the S&W barrel and fit it to the slide. (This could take a month or two in my spare time.)

Innovative,
I mentioned that my experience with M&P FS was noticeably better with 175-180 gr than 165 gr bullets. I will give you just one more benchmark comparison, since it contrasts with the above M&P data.

In several .40 cal Glocks (2 G23s and a G22), I've consistently seen 165 gr JHP bullets, specifically Rem Golden Saber 165 gr and Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr to group tighter than 180 gr JHPs, 3" to 3"+ a little, without any RMR on the gun. (Although in FMJs, they still like 180 gr better.) So the preference for the heavier JHPs seems specific to M&P, at least within my 2 brand experience.

I get your point about "might be almost satisfied". I am keeping my eye on the APEX site to see if they come out with a "to be fitted" .40 barrel too.

Good luck getting out to shoot and getting the consistency you want. I'm interested to see what results you get.

I should add a footnote you may be interested: I picked up an OEM M&P .357 SIG barrel. Just plopping that barrel in my .40 CORE, several times I've shot sub-2" groups with Speer Lawman and Gold Dot ammo.

Twist rate of the 40 is 1:16. Twist rate of some SDs is 1:10. Others appear to be 1:16.

The difference in twist rate can be an issue with differing weight bullets. Heavier bullets tend to prefer faster twist rates, and faster twist rates usually do better with heavier bullets. Keep in mind there are a LOT of other factors, such as the "nut holding the bang switch".....Haha

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