So, I'm torn between the 115 grain +P+ gold dot the and the 124 +P and standard pressure gold dots. Personally prefer a little more penetration from my 9mm. I really, really, really want to use the 115 grain +P+ just I have never shot +P+ and I don't want to cause excessive wear on the handgun, I would probably shoot 4-5 mags of the +P+ out of the gun and that would be that just to ensure to feeds reliably and then it would just be used for SD and HD. I have this gun on me all day so I want it to be able to work in both environments at home or work or where ever I may be. Any thoughts on which would be the best option, I have considered the 147 I just want something with a little more velocity, but I will not count it out.

I have done extensive ballistic gel testing. Federal HST 124gr or HST 147 gr standard pressure is what you seek. 124gr HST performs much better out of a short barrel like the Shield or Glock 43 than all the others. Corbon DPX 115+P performs well. IN a short barrel the gold dots 124+P did not perform well at all failing to expand 6-7 out of 10 times. They did perform better out of a full size duty weapon

Speer Gold dots, Federal HST, Hornady are on my top choices.

The FBI continues to advocate penetration as perhaps the most important element of their carry ammo. To my knowledge, now that they have returned to the 9mm as a duty cartridge, they are going with the 147 grain subsonic.

While it is always fashionable to second guess the FBI, my response to FBI critics is: "upon what facts do you base your conclusion?" While the "sophisticated" among us own chronographs, the FBI has every imaginable ballistic measuring tool at their disposal.

I have a nephew that is a federal agent, his recommendation for 9mm was the Federal HST 124 gr. They are free to carry any load on a recommended list, but based on all the testing the federal agencies do the Federal HST performed best. For duty he uses HST 147 gr for home protection he uses the HST 124 gr.

He is correct. 147 from a full size duty pistol is optimal choice (as I mentioned before HST 147 is ideal). It's the short barrels that are more complex

5 mags won't do much excessive wear.

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From what I understand, the main issue with +P+ ammo is that there are no actual standards for it, and it can be of excessively high pressure, but with minimal benefits, and (as you mention) some downsides.
Again, from what I understand, standard velocity ammo often (and counter-intuitively) has better performance than the higher velocity +P stuff.
As mentioned above, I believe the most ideal 9mm SD load is probably a standard velocity 147gr (through a sufficient length barrel).
But, all that being said, I wouldn't succumb to the urge to overthink this. You would be very well defended with any of several brands of modern HP ammo, in any weight from 115 to 147, whether +P or standard velocity.
I'd go with whatever was conveniently available, most economical, and cycles reliably in your SD pistol.

I don't understand the fascination with +P+ ammo. There are no standards for it, which means from load to load you don't know for sure what you're getting, and it produces excess wear on a weapon (heck, even +P does), so what's the point? Penetration? The FBI says look for 12-18 inches, and all standard pressure "premium" 9mm rounds fall well within that range, many coming in on the high side. Thus, logically, there is no reason to go to +P+.

If Gold Dot is your manufacturer of choice you certainly chose well, I would recommend the 147gr standard pressure, as opposed to +P.
If you're open to suggestions I would point out that Winchester D performed the most consistently, with all rounds reaching 15" of penetration with great expansion. In a full-size handgun, my choice would be Hornady Critical Duty (standard pressure).

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I'll echoed previous posts in this thread.

Personally, I went with 147 gr HST. I'm too lazy to do my own testing or contradict what the FBI recommends...if it's good enough for the FBI, it's good enough for me.

In terms of P+, I prefer standard. Pistols rounds do not have the knock down power of long guns and I'd rather put a larger round in an attacker in hope for more hollow point surface area damage. My priority in a SD situation is follow-up shots and I believe standard rounds provide a little less recoil than their + counter parts giving up an insignificant velocity advantage.

In terms of wear and tear, that has never crossed my mind since S&W provide lifetime warranty and is very good at honoring it. Shoot it, wear it down, then send it in for free repair if need be.

My recommendation would be to buy a few boxes of different weight pand brands of ammo that are on the FBI approved list. Shoot them through your gun and see which is the most accurate and/or which you like the most. That being said I'm leaning toward the lighter faster flatter shooting ammo for personal reasons. The FBI testing results are pretty easy to find and fairly straightforward to understand. You will be well served with anything that "passed". Accuracy and reliability out of your gun are more important than the exact brand or weight. Most are so close they just have small trade offs like this one does slightly better through drywall, but this one does better through heavy clothing.

Side note, the M&P seems to mitigate the +p+ recoil better than a glock (to me anyway), but if your recoil sensitive, that can be a concern as well.

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I have done some expansion tests as well, and my findings were very similar.

The HST was hands down the best round, due to penetration and expansion no matter what. The GoldDot rounds that I tested were terrible, with only 1 or 2 fully expanding with the rest barely half expanded. Really shocked me because GDs are so revered by everyone and supposed to be the best.

I will take HST over a GD any time. I just wished they made the HST for revolver calibers. I won't even touch the new short barrel Speer ammo that everyone just loves.

Speer Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, Hornady XTPs, Hornady Critical Duty, Winchester Ranger T-Series.....I'd stick with 124 grain +P or 147 grain. I value penetration over expansion.

If you're lucky, maybe your local jail will let you ask all of the inmates what they don't want to be shot with?

I'd also venture to say this is more important than ammo selection...

I agree HST 124gr is my go to ammo for SD. Don't really see the need for +P personally, overkill. Expansion and penetration, you get the best of both with HST.

Good read. Check the charts toward the end and compare 9mm 124gr HST. Expansion and penetration, excels in both.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

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Every major brand of 9mm JHP's tested by this man to find the one that best performs in testing similar to FBI protocals.

And the winner is?..........

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I wanted to do Ballistic testing with this ammo Winchester defend 147gr but I have been unable to locate it anywhere that would ship to NY

Speer Got Dot 124 grain +P HP.

The luckergunner.com test also indicate that the Federal HST is a good choice, at least out of short barrels. I'm also in the camp of not seeing the justification for +P ammo. And with no standards on the +P+ I'll nope my way on past that.

Hi, If I may add to the conversation.

Lucky Gunner has a very extensive list and testing data base.
Lucky Gunner

Read through the lists, and you can make an educated decision for your needs. IMHO.

I hope this helped, :-)

Already posted the link a few posts up.



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I just did an extensive accuracy test, and 147 HST in my shield edged out the other stuff I tested, but not by a lot. Still looking for that "golden" round, but for now I've stocked up on the 147 HST.

My 1911 in 9mm (my other carry gun) REALLY likes the 147 HST +P. I got 3" group at 12 yd in rapid fire. Compared to 6"+ for everything else.

My shield did like my 124gr montana gold JHP reloads, and shot a 3" group at that distance, albeit 6" low left. But that's not anything you could consider for carry ammo. So I know the gun has the potential, but I haven't found what it likes yet.

I still need to try the regular 124 HST, and the 150 HST micro ($ka-ching$).

I use Sig 115 grain JHP. To me, no need for P+ or +P+ or anything like that or over grain. That's just my opinion and my preference

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Yes, but the link above did not work for me. Hopefully my link does work. I checked it, but you never know.

Regards, :-)

This round is a very poor choice for short barrel 9mm's. It is a round for full size duty weapons.
60-70% of the time they will fail to expand on short barrels

What does your owner's manual say about using +P+ ammo? My Shields' (9 and .45) manuals both warn against using it. If your gun's manual says not to use it, there's your answer. You've gotten some great advice on alternative rounds in this thread, so shoot some of those yourself (it's fun!) and carry the one that fires the most reliably and accurately from your M&P.

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All manufacturers are trying to meet the FBI qualifications for penetration and expansion with and without barrier penetration. For civilian defense, barrier penetration is of less significance.

Firing a round that is accurate and controllable is important. Standard pressure ammo is usually more controllable than higher pressure rounds. It is also less expensive, and you can find FMJ practice rounds that mimic your carry ammo. Standard pressure rounds will also usually give you faster and more accurate follow-up shots. Standard pressure rounds meet FBI specs, as do higher pressure rounds, but there really is no advantage to them.

There are many good and affordable rounds that meet the above recommendations. No one round is likely to give you the ultimate golden bullet edge some seek, because terminal performance has so many variables. The FBI testing looks for consistency and predictability, yet in actual use this is very hard to quantify. Having confidence in your carry ammo is comforting.

My personal choice--not meant to belittle anyone else's--is to practice with quality brass cased 115 grn FMJ and carry the only round Lucky Gunner and others have shown to consistently expand to .70" AND penetrate 13+" AND retain 99+% of its weight. That is, almost anyone's loading of the Barnes XPB 115 grn solid copper expanding bullet.

Because they retain their weight better than other bullet styles and expand concentrically, they penetrate deep and straight. That expansion of .70" is almost 100%, as good as an average .40 S&W and many .45 ACP's. Yes, you are basically shooting a consistently predictable 70 caliber 9mm.

Con: they are expensive, but worth it my opinion.

BTW, faster does not always mean better, even for penetration and certainly not for expansion. Bullets can overexpand because of high velocity, that is, they lose parts, have expanded portions break off, have the expanded portion lay back against the body of the bullet, actually reducing expansion. This may increase penetration, but often the bullet becomes unbalanced and will not track straight.

Disclaimer: I worked for Barnes and watched FBI gel tests on dozens of manufacturers' rounds from rifles and handguns. Some performed as well, but none performed better than the Barnes bullets. Most manufacturers now have copies of the XPB since the patent ran out, but few match the consistent results from over 20 years of Barnes experience. The biggest advantage to similar performing competitors? They are cheaper.

I would avoid +P+ ammo.

Before asking "What ammo should I use?" you should ask "What should ammo do, what shouldn't it do, and how is it tested?" I recommend the following:
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness from the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI
Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Ordnance gelatin test assessment for rifle and pistol calibers by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
What's Wrong With The Wound Ballistics Literature And Why by Dr. Fackler

For specific recommendations I start here:
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Then here (for 9mm and 380):
9mm Ammo Quest on Youtube by ShootingTheBull410

I've done a lot of research on different ammo's from youtube and the forums and such. I do normally carry a 147 grain HST its whats loaded in my SD and HD handgun. I know the 147 works reliably in my gun, and I shoot them okay, I'm not the best by no means but I can hit where I am for the most part.



PS. I think I found my new carry gun

IMHO you are better off with something that is a known quantity and has been tested. You don't know what is in a +P+. The common brand of standard or +P 115, 124 and 147 gr. bullet of high quality, (Gold Dot, XTP, etc.) would be just fine. I am partial to the 124 and 147 gr. for defense. And the barrel of a full sized gun with get plenty of velocity. And you want to be able to make fast repeat shots and too much recoil can slow that down, even with a full size gun.

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I've switched from 9mm federal hydro shock 124 over to HST 124 after seeing so many great reviews of this round in my full size HD pistol. Now I'm wondering if 147 would be any better for full size HD?

I prefer the Hornady Critical Defense simply because of the plastic-filled tip which allows it to penetrate denim or similar material without filling the hollow point and turning it into a solid point round. I want it to penetrate and then act like a hollow point once inside the bad guy, without passing on through the bad guy and into a good guy. I like non-technical terms ("KISS").

You said you wanted expansion without over penetration. You are using one of the worst performing rounds for those goals.

You've bought into the Hornady marketing hype. Check test results to see that the bullet does not expand adequately (only to .41") after passing through denim and therefore tends to overpenetrate (19") which is through most bad guys.

Well designed modern hollow points do not fail to expand after passing through clothing. They expand just fine, as tests show, much better than HCD. The standardized FBI testing has put bullets through clothing for over 20 years. Most manufacturers that perform poorly in these tests correct their ammo, but not Hornady. Their marketing Fu is strong.

He is SPOT on. I have done extensive ballistic gel testing and I would NOT carry these from Hornady. Critical Duty 135+P over penetrate and barely expand. Federal HST 124 standard pressure for all barrel lengths and Federal HST 147gr for 4.5-5" barrel lengths. I had 2 out of 5 147HST not expand at all when shooting out of G43 and Shield. Not an issue with longer barrels. If you are worried about penetration get a Short barrel .45 and carry HST 230 standard pressure. Penetrates around 11 1/2-12" and opens up to .775-.892" expansion

I recently switched from 124 grain +P+ Federal Premium 'Hydra-Shok' over to 147 grain Federal Premium 'HST Tactical'. However I DO like and continue to use both loads!

Personally I don't use 9mm 115 grain bullets for anything other than general practice; nor do I use Speer, 'Gold Dot' cartridges. Around here we have really cold winters; and the extra wide mouths of, 'Gold Dots' have, historically, not done well against heavy winter clothing.

I've also fired a lot of +P+ ammo through my Glock Model 19; and; so far, I haven't seen any unusual signs of undue frame or barrel wear; but, of course, my G19 is very well maintained; the springs get routinely examined and are, sometimes, changed as often as twice a year.

(I use Wolff Gunsprings; and I keep both ± 1 lb springs on hand and change them either in or out as needed.)

Interesting. I have watched many videos on Hornady ammo, posted by a variety of different people, and in NONE of them did Hornady penetrate to that depth. It always fell well within the FBI recommended 12-18 inches. The only exception being their .380 round.

What is the source of the information you posted?

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Stay protected my friends.

When I was at Quantico, we were instructed to fire until the threat went down and also ceased to be a threat to you and fellow Officers.
Never to shoot,, then look to see,,if the threat did go down.
Quantification meant you had passed their training and was ready to return to your duty station.
They loved those big words!

Corbon DPX 115+P did very good out of the G43 and Shield
5 out of 5 penetrated 16" with beautiful expansion of .685" through 4 layers of Denim

With Hornady Critical Duty 135+P is very sensitive to barrel length. Just like Gold Dots 124+P. They do much better in duty size weapons with 4.5"+ barrels. The greater barrel length helps the round achieve a greater velocity. This greater velocity allows for greater expansion and reduced penetration. This explains why the gold dot and critical duty perform poorly out of a G43/Shield.
60-70% of the Gold dots over penetrated the block of 20" and didn't expand at all. The Critical Duty would go 19-20" with .420 expansion. Critical defense is their "civilian" load. I think they went too far the other way with that critical defense load. In my tests it averaged penetration 11 1/2"-12" and expanded .485"
There are so many better self defense loads for civilians.
I use to carry Underwood .357 sig gold dots in my G33. They are really designed to penetrate barriers first. With 4 layers of Denim I typically get 19-21" penetration with full expansion to .584". It even rocked the block
I went to Corbon DPX 125gr instead in my G33. That penetrated to 17" with .680" expansion!

If you look at the lucky gunner tests, you'll see that stuff like HST and golden saber have no issues filling with denim, and expand MUCH better than XTP. The plastic tip is just one of many ways to prevent that issue.

I like Hornady as a company a lot, but their carry ammo is ****.

Personally, I would (and do) choose the Winchester 147 Gr. standard velocity JHP and forget about anything +P or +P+. The only down side for me is that it makes the gun heavier. If you want penetration, you need mass. A hot 115 Gr. JHP will only fragment, which I suppose isn't all bad either.

People often confuse the FTX with the XTP and they are designed to do entirely different things.

The FTX has the rubber tip. XTP uses an open hollow point design.

The XTP series of bullets are also designed for controlled and rather moderate expansion to 1.5x their original diameter, rather than the 1.6x or 1.65x diameter of some other rounds.

This lets them penetrate well, even in shorter barrels - but you'll never see the spectacular jagged, spider leg type expansion you see with some others. Instead you'll get a nice mushroom effect.

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Personally I've carried 124 gr HSTs, 124 gr and 147 gr Golden Sabers and 124 gr XTPs.

I've never felt under gunned with any of them - they will all get the job done with good bullet placement and they will all fail miserably with poor bullet placement.

I'm a firm believer in shooting what you cary on a regular basis to ensure that it continues to function with 100% reliability in your handgun - even after you've carried it a few months. That argues for a round that is commonly available. If you're hoarding a box or two of holy grail ammo that you never actually fire, you're doing yourself a serious disservice even if it is God's gift to terminal ballistics.

I'm also a big believer in shooting practice rounds that have the same weight, velocity and point shape as your carry ammo, and that becomes another factor in finding a *practical* self defense round.

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If you just can't find a 9mm round that meets all your criteria, just start carrying a K or L frame .357 Mag. It hard to find a .357 Mag hollow point load that isn't a pretty good performer.

So what would be better for home defense in a full size 4.5 barrel pistol? 124 or 147? I wouldn't definitely wouldn't want over penetration as the rooms in my house are close together. But I'd still like good stopping power. What ever I choose would be HST only.

I would go with 147 HST
My home defense pistol is Glock 23 with 165gr HST

Ah, yes, BUT: if you read the actual ammunition test protocol, you'll note that the FBI notes that all the tests they perform allow agencies to choose their ammo according to their needs.

At the time of the original testing, something like 50% of all FBI armed encounters involved vehicles. Therefore, they emphasized penetration and the ability to penetrate glass/body metal. At a later date, the percentage of vehicle involved incidents increased.

At the time, I noted to the guy running the test program that the figure was a message that the agents needed to quit doing arrests with handguns. He agreed.

So, if you don't expect to need to penetrate cars, heavy clothing etc, you should take that into account when you select ammo. At least, if you have a copy of the FBI ammo test reports.

BTW, if the ammo is suitable for defensive use, it'll go through interior walls like they weren't there. Practice, practice, practice and carefully review your house layout to determine fields of fire and no fire.

The last time I trained with the NYPD firearms staff, they emphasized that most shooting incidents occurred in and around doorways (to include motor vehicles), in reduced light and at an average of ten feet.

As others have said, the private citizen who must defend himself is not as likely to have to deal with barricaded gunmen or gunmen at a distance.

Personally prefer a little more penetration from my 9mm.
115 grain dont penetrate as well as 124,135, or 147's. I have been using these PDX1's .found them at walmart and my LGS. They are rated at 1200 fps. ...I also carry federal HST's

Attached Images

pdx1 9mm.jpg (148.9 KB, 13 views)

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personal preference for me depends upon which one of my defense pistols you are talking about, but, the basics are that I decided upon one of the two after viewing all of shootingthebull410 videos. for my short barrel I had chosen Federal LE HST 124gr std pressure, for my home defense, I have a ruger americian with a 4.25" barrel, I chose the 147gr version of the same. In practice, 124 has been near impossible to lay hands on for me so I fire the same out of both. It has been the most accurate to paper, is clean burning , consistent and I can buy it. My backup is speer gold dot 124gr +P. I can find this occasionally , but it is more than twice as expensive as the federals (probably why it is available). I also did my own tests with both my pistols on pork butts and shoulders and am satisfied that my choices are good. Oh, and all three of my choices go bang every time I pull the trigger. Good luck

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