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06-06-2017, 02:22 AM
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I have one onthe way from Bud's
I wonder what chance I have in getting a good one vs one with this problem?
Anyone have a recent sample with NO problem???
There should be a poll conducted.
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06-06-2017, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifmon
I have one onthe way from Bud's
I wonder what chance I have in getting a good one vs one with this problem?
Anyone have a recent sample with NO problem???
There should be a poll conducted.
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If I had to guess prolly in the 0.1% range.
Yes...I have a safe full of em with no problems.
Start a thread poll if ya want!
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06-07-2017, 06:42 AM
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Well, 1% is a good % I'd say. I plan to go right to the range after picking this up at my local FFL Saturday. I WILL be bringing my clean and lube supplies so I am not doing a straight-from-the box test.
I'll report back afterwards.
Saturday is a big day for me; I'm also picking up and transferring to my daughter a Bersa UL Compact 9mm, also from Bud's. This is the gun my daughter wanted over a Shield after trying her brother's SIG 239 and a rented a Shield and LC9. She did not like either one of those but strongly preferred the DA SIG. The Bersa is very similar, smaller and way less expensive than the SIG!
I'd do a poll but not sure how. The circles and graphs look pretty high-tech to me.
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06-07-2017, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifmon
I WILL be bringing my clean and lube supplies so I am not doing a straight-from-the box test.
I'll report back afterwards.
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Do you buy a new car and take it straight to a oil change facility to have all the fluids changed?
Do a straight from box test, then clean and lube as needed, that's a real test.
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06-07-2017, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85V65Sabre
Do you buy a new car and take it straight to a oil change facility to have all the fluids changed?
Do a straight from box test, then clean and lube as needed, that's a real test.
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Poor advice, IMO. There is no apt comparison from an automobile to a mass manufactured $350 gun.
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06-07-2017, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3
Poor advice, IMO. There is no apt comparison from an automobile to a mass manufactured $350 gun.
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I see that we don't agree on this, but I respect your opinion.
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06-08-2017, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85V65Sabre
Do you buy a new car and take it straight to a oil change facility to have all the fluids changed?
Do a straight from box test, then clean and lube as needed, that's a real test.
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Well, a new car has oil in it. Sometimes new guns are dry or are supplied with the manufacturer's packing oil/grease.
I remember the very first semi auto I ever bought was a SIG 239. I was only accustomed to revolvers back then and I took it to the range right from the store. It jammed like crazy. I sent it to SIG and waited 2 weeks. When it arrived back, the service slip stated 'oiled rails" haha!! I called SIG and the person on the phone confirmed the gun was 100% dry.
I am way more aware of a gun's condition now than I was at that time (1998?) but I do not trust whatever oils are provide in a new gun.
Ever since that experience I do my own clean and lube prior to shooting but I get it that others do not and have success on their first range trip.
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06-08-2017, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Roman
If I had to guess prolly in the 0.1% range.
Yes...I have a safe full of em with no problems.
Start a thread poll if ya want!
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Hey Dad_Roman, Thanks for starting that poll!
I will be watching AND voting very soon..... My Shied is IN!
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06-08-2017, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85V65Sabre
Do you buy a new car and take it straight to a oil change facility to have all the fluids changed?
Do a straight from box test, then clean and lube as needed, that's a real test.
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page 34 of the shield's owner manual specifically states to clean the weapon before first time use, explicitly stating to remove the factory anti-corrosion preservative.
some weapons prefer to run dry, some prefer to run wet, some don't care whether you oil them or clean them but id rather know what's in my gun before the first time i shoot it.
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06-08-2017, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifmon
Hey Dad_Roman, Thanks for starting that poll!
I will be watching AND voting very soon..... My Shied is IN!
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Your sure welcome. You guys started hinting about it and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Sometimes you put something like that together and it surprises you how long it takes
Start punchin those "like" buttons my man!...lets get that -zero- off your profile
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06-08-2017, 10:12 AM
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"Oh and by the way, you cannot reproduce this by cycling the slide manually. It only jams up when cycled with the force of an actual fired recoil."
I just worked on a new 2.0, and the slide DID stick back manually, both before and after the Cerakote. A few minutes with some 600 grit paper, and all is well......
__________________
CERAKOTE Svcs.
Class 01 FFL
Last edited by jim46ok; 06-08-2017 at 10:31 AM.
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06-09-2017, 03:23 PM
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I am very skeptical about the cleaning and re-oiling theory. Maybe for an ejecting or failure to feed issue or something like that, but a solid jam past slide lock requiring significant force to free-up ... I'm having a hard time with that.
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06-09-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTB1
I am very skeptical about the cleaning and re-oiling theory. Maybe for an ejecting or failure to feed issue or something like that, but a solid jam past slide lock requiring significant force to free-up ... I'm having a hard time with that.
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It works. Also MAY require a touch of buffing/sanding. Your call.
I dont have the issue myself but from what Ive seen it seems to be a barrel vs slide clearance issue when the slide is racked back. Doesnt appear to be any kind of "FCG mechanism" problem.
Choices appear to be...
1. Send it in
2. Look inside to determine the spot where it jams and buff lightly with fine grit and hit it with a touch of lube.
Saw where one guy saw the wear spots inside the slide and on the barrel and just greased it up in that location and shot it....fixed
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06-09-2017, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTB1
I am very skeptical about the cleaning and re-oiling theory. Maybe for an ejecting or failure to feed issue or something like that, but a solid jam past slide lock requiring significant force to free-up ... I'm having a hard time with that.
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At first blush I would agree.
However, what we are usually talking about here is especially tight tolerances, increased friction and lack of proper lubrication. Minor wear will fix the tight tolerance if you can reduce friction enough for the slide to cycle a few dozen times. Cleaning and lubrication can reduce friction at many different points on the gun, giving it that extra little smoothness needed to overcome sticky tolerances.
I will not shoot a new gun, even though it was last shot a few times at the factory, until I have disassembled, cleaned, polished, and lubricated it. I shoot it well greased and oiled the first few times at the range. There is no harm to doing this, and there are great benefits.
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06-10-2017, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Roman
It works. Also MAY require a touch of buffing/sanding. Your call.
I dont have the issue myself but from what Ive seen it seems to be a barrel vs slide clearance issue when the slide is racked back. Doesnt appear to be any kind of "FCG mechanism" problem.
Choices appear to be...
1. Send it in
2. Look inside to determine the spot where it jams and buff lightly with fine grit and hit it with a touch of lube.
Saw where one guy saw the wear spots inside the slide and on the barrel and just greased it up in that location and shot it....fixed
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Lubricant eventually wears away and you MAY again experience the lock back. If you don't send it in a light buff from a polishing wheel on the affected areas shown in my previous post will correct the problem.
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06-11-2017, 09:17 AM
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Good stuff right there. Following the entire sub-forum I had forgotten about all this on page one. Definitely worth a repost
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPI
Lubricant eventually wears away and you MAY again experience the lock back. If you don't send it in a light buff from a polishing wheel on the affected areas shown in my previous post will correct the problem.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Precision_Inc
The points which cause the hangup are pointed out in the below pics. The inside of the slide as well as the small point on the barrel shown are too tight. This has caused the metal on the inside of the slide to mishape (the barrel also has smaller marks as shown where it is catching). The barrel we believe is a bit more hard than the slide causing the slide to show more wear. This was also demonstrated in some of our early barrels and we corrected that area of the barrel shown from the factory. Ours do not catch now.
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Last edited by Dad_Roman; 06-11-2017 at 09:21 AM.
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06-11-2017, 11:27 AM
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So simple to see with this photographic explanation. So easy to fix yourself. Cleaning, polishing and good lubrcation are almost free. It takes a few minutes to do this and the problem is solved.
This is not really scary. It's just a tiny bit too much metal in two very small and relatively inconsequential places on the barrel. Remove it. Done.
The hassles of the warranty process are the last option for me, but it is an option.
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06-11-2017, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3
So simple to see with this photographic explanation. So easy to fix yourself. Cleaning, polishing and good lubrcation are almost free. It takes a few minutes to do this and the problem is solved.
This is not really scary. It's just a tiny bit too much metal in two very small and relatively inconsequential places on the barrel. Remove it. Done.
The hassles of the warranty process are the last option for me, but it is an option.
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Yes, simple, easy, and done with minimal cost.
Just wondering why S&W did not do it!
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06-11-2017, 12:10 PM
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Machines that make parts get out of spec, or at least they will hit one end of the set range of tolerance before they are adjusted. Cutting tools wear. They start off when new removing a tiny bit too much material, then as they wear, they remove less until they get to the point where a tolerance range is about to be exceeded. Then they are replaced.
All during this machining process samples are pulled at various times. They are measured to the 1000th of an inch to see if they are in spec. Most barrels are not actually measured for every dimension--only a representative sample.
The same process applies to slides. The front of the slide has a minor range of allowable tolerances.
When you get both parts at a maximum tolerance, right at "spec", you have a "stacking" of tolerances, which can create just the minor amount of friction required to seize the parts when other specs are also at max allowable. For instance, if other areas of friction were decreased, i. e., anything effecting slide velocity such as lack of cleaning and lubrication, then the two original mating surfaces might be able to slide over each other, especially if they are smoothed (polished).
So, can Quality Control at S&W be expected to measure every tolerance on every part on every gun during assembly? Not for under $400 per gun. Does S&W figure into their costs that less than 1% of their guns will be returned for minor repairs? Yep, just like every other major manufacturer trying to achieve tight tolerances.
One solution would be for S&W to widen tolerances. That, with stacking of loose tolerances, would lead to loose guns that would shoot reliably with poor accuracy. As they wear they would get worse. Your WWII military 1911's are an example of this. Loose tolerances are easier to make and assemble, quicker, cheaper. Unless extremely loose, they function very well, even with crud in critical places. Think original Glocks, not known for great accuracy but great reliability.
Today's pistol customer expects accuracy and reliability at a good price. That's a tall order for machined metal with lots of parts interacting at high pressure and high speeds assembled and inspected by humans.
I am not an apologist for S&W. I think this particular problem is identifiable during assembly and QC with some training, especially now that it is a known problem.
Or, adjust machine tolerance for this one area since it does not effect any other function, like TP has done. That has likely already been done and we won't see this problem going forward.
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06-11-2017, 12:23 PM
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New 9mm M&P Shield - slide getting jammed back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3
Machines that make parts get out of spec, or at least they will hit one end of the set range of tolerance before they are adjusted. Cutting tools wear. They start off when new removing a tiny bit too much material, then as they wear, they remove less until they get to the point where a tolerance range is about to be exceeded. Then they are replaced.
All during this machining process samples are pulled at various times. They are measured to the 1000th of an inch to see if they are in spec. Most barrels are not actually measured for every dimension--only a representative sample.
The same process applies to slides. The front of the slide has a minor range of allowable tolerances.
When you get both parts at a maximum tolerance, right at "spec", you have a "stacking" of tolerances, which can create just the minor amount of friction required to seize the parts when other specs are also at max allowable. For instance, if other areas of friction were decreased, i. e., anything effecting slide velocity such as lack of cleaning and lubrication, then the two original mating surfaces might be able to slide over each other, especially if they are smoothed (polished).
So, can Quality Control at S&W be expected to measure every tolerance on every part on every gun during assembly? Not for under $400 per gun. Does S&W figure into their costs that less than 1% of their guns will be returned for minor repairs? Yep, just like every other major manufacturer trying to achieve tight tolerances.
One solution would be for S&W to widen tolerances. That, with stacking of loose tolerances, would lead to loose guns that would shoot reliably with poor accuracy. As they wear they would get worse. Your WWII military 1911's are an example of this. Loose tolerances are easier to make and assemble, quicker, cheaper. Unless extremely loose, they function very well, even with crud in critical places. Think original Glocks, not known for great accuracy but great reliability.
Today's pistol customer expects accuracy and reliability at a good price. That's a tall order for machined metal with lots of parts interacting at high pressure and high speeds assembled and inspected by humans.
I am not an apologist for S&W. I think this particular problem is identifiable during assembly and QC with some training, especially now that it is a known problem.
Or, adjust machine tolerance for this one area since it does not effect any other function, like TP has done. That has likely already been done and we won't see this problem going forward.
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Please don't treat me (& others) like a idiot, I have not done that to you.
I know of all of he manufacturing tolerances you speak of. If the barrel & slide is out of spec then why is it S&W sends the pistols back and state "deburred" slide?
I have not complained about the issues I've had with the Shield, only voiced concern about S&W quality control/customer service.
Last edited by 85V65Sabre; 06-11-2017 at 12:33 PM.
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