With 9mm M&P Shield, which is overall the best/most accurate sight picture POA/POI?

[tedburns3]

With the 9mm M&P Shield, which is overall the best/most accurate sight picture POA/POI?

Comments are welcome concerning variables, e.g., distance to target, weight of bullet, type of bullet, power load- standard pressure vs. +P, +P+, etc.



Each sight picture depicts impact center of bullseye- here, intersection of the lines.

Sight Image #1- 6 o'clock hold ("pumpkin on a post");
Sight Image #2- half'n'half center mass/hunting hold;
Sight Image #3- combat sight picture or hold (dot covers target, "drive the dot").

From Sight Image #1 to Sight Image #3 there is a progressive raising of the muzzle.

[haveme1]

I think it's human nature to point at where you want to hit.
Low light, close target the combat sight (#1) is kinda useless.
I have combat on my sig 228.
Center #2 it's on my CORE .... I hit the 6" plates allot better with the CORE.

[tedburns3]

Isn't 'combat sight' picture #3 where the target you are shooting at is in center of and covered by the front sight? I thought that alone was called or considered to be the 'combat sight' image. Anyway, guess that it doesn't matter.

So, you are saying #2 would be best with the Shield? Or do you only comment upon the Sig and the CORE and not applicable, necessarily, to the Shield?

Thanks.

[mafbloggerdanny]

the only M&P I have experience with is the Shield in 9mm and shooting that, I get the best results when the center of the target is completely covered up by the sights (#3)

what feels natural to me after shooting other pistols is to do it like (#2), but when I aim like that with the shield I get a lot of low shots. I can only assume that a certain part of that is my own poor trigger control but at the end of the day i get better results aiming higher (#3).

EDIT - read OP's post again and wanted to add, I shoot mostly either reloads or cheap steel case ammo (tul, wolf) and always 115 gr., standard pressure, round nose fmjs, 7-10 yards most of the time.

never shot with self defense ammo hollow points or super high quality match ammo yet.

my observations are made after approx 700, 800 rounds, I would guess.

[epj]

#3 is probably your best bet with a Shield. All the ones I've shot hit POA with this sight picture.

[dullh]

I use #3.

POI=POA to 15 yards.

All day long.

Like a boss.

[RobzGuns]

I've used Sight Pic #3 for Every 3" and 4" barrel pistol I've owned (Shield, G19, XDMc, G26, XDsc, PF-9) out to 15yds as well. After that, Pic #2 works.

Even the Subcompacts (and Compacts) I've rented (LC9, Nano, P938, XD-S, 709 Slim, SR9c, PM9, etc) were all Pic #3.

[Bozz10mm]

If I use sight picture #2 with my 9mm Shield, the bullets impact right at the cross hairs on your target. That's at 7 yards.

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by mafbloggerdanny

the only M&P I have experience with is the Shield in 9mm and shooting that, I get the best results when the center of the target is completely covered up by the sights (#3)

what feels natural to me after shooting other pistols is to do it like (#2), but when I aim like that with the shield I get a lot of low shots. I can only assume that a certain part of that is my own poor trigger control but at the end of the day i get better results aiming higher (#3).

EDIT - read OP's post again and wanted to add, I shoot mostly either reloads or cheap steel case ammo (tul, wolf) and always 115 gr., standard pressure, round nose fmjs, 7-10 yards most of the time.

never shot with self defense ammo hollow points or super high quality match ammo yet.

my observations are made after approx 700, 800 rounds, I would guess.

Thanks for your informative post, one of the few where I don't feel a follow-up question is necessary! That's saying something.

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by RobzGuns

I've used Sight Pic #3 for Every 3" and 4" barrel pistol I've owned (Shield, G19, XDMc, G26, XDsc, PF-9) out to 15yds as well. After that, Pic #2 works.

Even the Subcompacts (and Compacts) I've rented (LC9, Nano, P938, XD-S, 709 Slim, SR9c, PM9, etc) were all Pic #3.

Good post, thanks!

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by Bozz10mm

If I use sight picture #2 with my 9mm Shield, the bullets impact right at the cross hairs on your target. That's at 7 yards.

From a shooting standpoint, I actually prefer #2 because target sits immediately above front sight post, but most here thus far suggest #3. Thanks for your informative post with #2 at 7 yds. I shoot exclusively at an outdoor range and minimum target distance is 15 yards unless you bring your own stand-alone frames with bases.

[jonesy814]

Number 3 is right on with my shield 9mmy

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by dullh

I use #3.

POI=POA to 15 yards.

All day long.

Like a boss.

Let's assume just for arguments' sake #3 is the most correct answer out to 15 yards, ok?

What would be the point of impact if one used #2 instead?

POI above the cross hairs? Below it? I need to think about it because the answer may not be obvious and it's easy to make mistakes with what amounts to a front sight adjustment.

Reasoning appreciated re the answer to above!!!
I already have what I initially think would be the answer but want to hear the various reason(s) behind your answers.

[OKFC05]

With any handgun, but especially with a short, light one, the shooter seriously affects the POI by how he/she holds the gun, and whether they anticipate the shot and move the gun slightly.

The Shield held perfectly still or shot from a ransom rest shoots per the picture #2 on the OP. However, because so many people break down slightly on the shot, many say they compensate by using sight picture #3. This is acceptable as long as it is consistent. Look back through the posts above at how many people say they ALWAYS use #3 on every small gun they shoot.

With the 9mm M&P Shield, which is overall the best/most accurate sight picture POA/POI?

It depends on the shooter whether you can use #2, or have to use #3 to compensate for slightly breaking down on the shot. Accuracy from any small handgun is highly shooter dependent. I have students who immediately want to change the sights on my gun because "it shoots low." Sometimes I have to fire a group to show them it is the shooter, not the gun.

[tedburns3]

Great to know, OKFC05!

Thanks much!

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by RobzGuns

I've used Sight Pic #3 for Every 3" and 4" barrel pistol I've owned (Shield, G19, XDMc, G26, XDsc, PF-9) out to 15yds as well. After that, Pic #2 works.

Even the Subcompacts (and Compacts) I've rented (LC9, Nano, P938, XD-S, 709 Slim, SR9c, PM9, etc) were all Pic #3.

Pretty comprehensive answer. I will try this and will also try beyond 15 yards, too, with #2 instead of #3!

Thanks, much!

[tedburns3]

According to poll at this moment, #2 and #3 are about equal.

So, trigger control might indeed have something to do with the votes.

I believe one here stated Ransom Rest would be #2. Anyone else care to comment how sights are set for up to 15 yards assuming using a truly steady hold or that Ransom Rest? Then again, Ransom may be shot for 25 yards or greater.

Post #14 indeed seems relevant when it comes to gun handling/trigger handling.

Query: Is sight picture #3 commonly referred to as the 'combat sight picture' or are the others, too?

[kannonvaggon]

For " combat sight picture ".... how would one SEE the sight blades in low light conditions? I "line up the dots" cuz that's the only thing you'll see in low or no light, especially if you use FO type three dot sights ....

So, I use picture #3 for defensive range on a short barrel pistol. I DO get a slightly higher POI with SD loads of 124g but seem about the same with white box type range ammo of 115g or 147g SD ammo . Probably depends on the grip and mag length as well as ammo, but at short range the difference isn't more than maybe an inch or so. YMMV

[haveme1]

There are allot of you tube on the subject.
The instructors all agree that in short range shooting the body mass of the target its so big that using the sights like you do in shooting bullseye is really not the issue. It's knowing your weapon is pointing true. Up or down, left or right an inch or two you're still hitting vital areas.
I shoot poa with both my m&p's. My Sig shoots high (target is in view not covered up)

[ScrapmasterFlex]

I was taught the correct sight picture was #2; however, when I bought a Sig MK25 Zin May, the manual has a passage that states it is equipped with combat sights and gives an explanation on how you need to be aiming as demonstrated in #3 above.

When I was just having fun a few days back, I actually do believe I was getting better results with a #3 sight picture on the Shield, which makes sense to me- the Shield is basically a personal "combat gun" ... for defending people in their own personal combat situations, so that sight picture would make sense.

[haveme1]

I stand corrected on terminology.
Poa straight on covered up.
Thank you for making me learn !

[TJHuxley]

Definitely does not feel like #1. When using standard pressure ammo only from various manufacturers, both 115 grn and 124 grn, mine seems to be #3. I practice inside 7 yrds mostly but I also point shoot plenty during practice sessions.

[RobzGuns]

Originally Posted by ScrapmasterFlex

I was taught the correct sight picture was #2; however, when I bought a Sig MK25 Zin May, the manual has a passage that states it is equipped with combat sights and gives an explanation on how you need to be aiming as demonstrated in #3 above.

While I couldn't find a section in the Shield manual about sight picture, a few of my other manuals (my XDMc manual, for one), mentions this and shows a Pic using #3.
So for SOME pistols anyway, getting good results using #3 is NOT compensating for shooter error.

One thing I notice a bunch at the range, including from my Wife, is that for many (that don't shoot a lot), their 1st shot (using pic #3) might be spot-on, dead center. Possibly because with that 1st shot, they're not anticipating the recoil (yet). Using the same sight picture as their 1st shot, As they shoot more and they start to Anticipate/Flinch, THEN they start shooting Lower than their 1st shot and maybe even Low/Left. That's definitely shooter error.

I actually heard one shooter say "My 1st mag was Perfect and I got progressively worse with each mag... I guess I should have quit after that 1st mag." The group went wild.

[tedburns3]

I do think the general concensus is that Sight Image #3 is the only one properly referred to as a 'combat sight picture', and I'd guess the reason for that is one is pointing at the area where impact should occur, not slightly above it or way above it. It's the more intuitive picture where one does not have to 'think' about it as much as with the others, and might serve one better under the unusual stress encountered in a combat situation.

I'm going to Google the term 'combat sight picture' and see if I can get more background on it.

Poll remains for the most part tied between #2 and #3.

Here's something I just picked up from the Sig-Sauer website.
SIG SAUER


"Q. My SIG SAUER pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?

A. All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a "combat" sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bulls eye of the target. Using a six o'clock ("pumpkin on a post") or center mass ("half'n'half") sight picture will result in low impact. SIG SAUER, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2.5 inch groupings @ 15 yards. If you are still having trouble please contact Customer Service for further help and instruction. Please have your serial number ready. There are also very helpful free Internet sites that cover pistol group analysis."
__________________________
That is a helpful explanation.

Corrected text:
Sight Image #1- 6 o'clock hold ("pumpkin on a post");
Sight Image #2- half'n'half center mass/hunting hold;
Sight Image #3- combat sight picture or hold (dot covers target, "drive the dot").

[Don 73]

I vary between #2 and #3 with #3 being the most used

[tedburns3]

Updated posts #1 and #24 re terminology used for these sight images.

[ginzo]

I use #2. This is for both my .40 FS and .40c. POI=POA to 15 yards. Mostly shoot to 7 yards. I understand you are 9mm. Same perspective from a .40

This is an 8" target out to 15 yards my 1st range trip with .40c. It's not a bulls eye every time, but I'm thinking the threat would be over........(hopefully)

Good luck and welcome to the forum. Great place!!

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by ginzo

I use #2. This is for both my .40 FS and .40c. POI=POA to 15 yards. Mostly shoot to 7 yards. I understand you are 9mm. Same perspective from a .40

This is an 8" target out to 15 yards my 1st range trip with .40c. It's not a bulls eye every time, but I'm thinking the threat would be over........(hopefully)

Good luck and welcome to the forum. Great place!!

Thank for your post.

Good shooting!

I haven't enough experience shooting my 9mm Shield to vote on the poll yet, but it will be either #2 or #3. No big surprise there!

[ginzo]

Thanks, Everyone shoots a little different.

I'm having trouble finding my "place" with my 638 because you only look down a valley at a ramp. But shoot well enough to feel comfort when it's in my pocket. I'll keep working on it!

Practice makes perfect, and it's fun too!!

Originally Posted by tedburns3

Thank for your post.

Good shooting!

I haven't enough experience shooting my 9mm Shield to vote on the poll yet, but it will be either #2 or #3. No big surprise there!

[Trons]

Well, I started with sight picture 2, but was coming in low so switched to sight picture 3. Even then, I was still low. Some snap caps mixed in with live ammo showed that I was anticipating recoil and breaking at the wrist. I switched back to 2 and have been much better. If I start hitting low, I concentrate on trigger control and it moves back up to where I want it.

Having said that. My son, who does not anticipate recoil, says he uses three with my Shield and shoots tighter groups then I do. <shrug> Take that for what it is.

[shawn mccarver]

The best sight picture is what works for YOU.

[ginzo]

Boy, it's a close race!!! Sight picture #1 is fading fast, but 2 and 3 are neck and neck!

[tedburns3]

What is purpose of 3-dot sights on the Shield? To use the dots solely for alignment as in #2, or for both alignment and POA as in #3?

I would guess the latter because the former is additional 'work' and lessens advantage to them in the first place, but all this is speculation on my part.

[tedburns3]

Wouldn't common sense dictate since the middle of the white dot on front sight as closer to bore, be more likely POA=POI? And that doing #2 using proper trigger control might result in shots hitting lower? Difference might be nominal in close engagement but as one extends target out further.....???

[tedburns3]

A big Duh! on my part!

3-dot white sights- aren't they commonly referred to as '3-dot combat sights'?

If these indeed are 3-dot 'combat sights', then...there it is....!

Combat sight picture #3 would apply using deductive reasoning. It may not be correct, but... makes sense to me without taking other factors into consideration. These sights are referred to as 'combat sights' for a reason. Duh

If my third range trip confirms #3 over #2, I will hereafter pledge to say that '3-dot combat sights' are just that- "combat sights", where the dot on front sight shall cover the target for accurate and proper shot placement.

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by ginzo

Thanks, Everyone shoots a little different.

I'm having trouble finding my "place" with my 638 because you only look down a valley at a ramp. But shoot well enough to feel comfort when it's in my pocket. I'll keep working on it!

Practice makes perfect, and it's fun too!!

The one type of handgun I'd say gets the greatest benefit from laser sights would be the J-frame. It's incredible how one's accuracy and confidence in the firearm increases with them, especially in low-light scenarios, and from short distances out to beyond 25 yards.

I have a CT LG-405 on my 442- 'wouldn't leave home without it'!

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by shawn mccarver

The best sight picture is what works for YOU.

- and your gun and chosen ammunition. As long as you are consistent with it, how you align the sights doesn't matter.

I haven't fired my 9mm Shield for a while and to be honest have forgotten. The last Shield I fired as a .40 caliber and it did nicely with #2 hold and Winchester Ranger 180gr FMJ.

[TYSTYX]

At 25 feet #3 is what I use with my 40fs.

[tedburns3]

Originally Posted by shawn mccarver

The best sight picture is what works for YOU.

Yeah, and I want to know what it is via this poll. It's pretty interesting that the votes are evenly divided #2 & #3; I don't know what to make of it.

Next range trip I will set up separate targets @15 yds. and shoot each of them solely with #2 or #3, and then I'll vote on the poll. Intend to really take my time between each shot, and focus on sight picture and trigger pull.

My goal is to be able to hit inside a 1" square or round circle EVERY TIME at all distances up to 15 yds or so. I'd take pride in being able to do that, not so much for self defense reasons, but for reasons of precision with a handgun that I happen to enjoy.

[ca survivor]

Originally Posted by Bozz10mm

If I use sight picture #2 with my 9mm Shield, the bullets impact right at the cross hairs on your target. That's at 7 yards.

great shooting, aim small miss small

[Decipher]

You have enough posts, but #3 works perfectly for my Shield 9

[tedburns3]

Well, let me be the judge of that (number of posts)!

Anyway, I have a small shipment of 124gr HST due in Tuesday, and hope to make it to the range on Wednesday.

I intend to shoot 10 rounds of it using sight pictures #2 and #3, respectively, for a total of 20 rounds.

I'll do the same with WWB and Tul target ammo, will segregate the results, so 6 targets showing a total of 60 rounds (hopefully on paper) will be posted here, along with casting my vote.

Due to logistics, it is likely that all targets will be shot at a distance of 15 yards.

Cheers,

[tedburns3]

Third range trip with Shield

Outdoor range- all targets were at 15 yards, shot standing, no rest. ('nutnfancy' says, in so many words, that it's not easy with Shield at this distance- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xVU...4-SpLw&index=1).

For each brand of ammo, 7 rounds fired on each target.

Each target is 8" in diameter.

Targets on left- used Sight Image #2

Targets on right- used Sight Image #3

All ammo 115gr FMJ unless otherwise specified, and there were no malfunctions/failures.

Sometimes I had patience, sometimes not. Sometimes there were other shooters conversing.


WWB:



Federal Champion:



TulAmmo:



HST 124gr:



PPV:

I shot this so poorly that I covered targets and forgot to take pics.

Fed 147gr JHP:



I think that I shot slightly better with Sight Image #2 today, but the difference is negligible. Not that it's relevant to the topic- I prefer it because I like seeing part of the target, and you 'split' it with that Sight Image, instead of covering it with the middle of the white dot. So, my vote will be #2 based upon what I seem to shoot better and that preference.

That does not imply that Sight Image #2 is how the gun is sighted at the factory. FWiW, I really don't know if Sight Image #2 is the better sight image. My findings are subjective, not objective.

A Ransom Rest test using two or three expert shooters sighting in would give a more objective answer.

I am a left-handed shooter. Comments welcome, including any critiques as to my shooting mistakes/errors, if any patterns evident that with correction might improve my results with the Shield.

[ginzo]

I am left handed also. Random testing with another shooter is one way to eliminate sight picture issue. The other is shoot from a rest and remove your self from the equation altogether. That gives you a starting point.

Do a search as I cannot explain (not that smart) trajectory and bullet weights vs. distances. This will help you understand POA=POI.

Once you are at this point than you can practice trigger control, as that is ALMOST everyones issue when starting out with a new firearm.
I've included a picture of results when test firing/sighting in a new pistol from a rest and a video that I graduated to showing trigger control. It takes patience and small steps to get to this.

I AM NOT a competitive shooter, just interested in fun at the range and serious SD.



1st 6 shots, .357 mag. 158 gr. JHP 6 inch Target
5 Yards from a rest. Gun was sighted in perfectly.
- See more at: 1st 6 Shots, .357 Mag. 158 Gr. JHP 6 Inch Target Photo by ginzo1958 | Photobucket

Trigger practice Dry Fire .22 casing - YouTube

Hope this helps. I apologize in advance if your knowledge level is already beyond this reply. For me, I tend to pick up my friends guns (cold) and shoot them better than my own. And sometimes better than them. Go figure!

Chuck

[papersniper]

Originally Posted by RobzGuns

I've used Sight Pic #3 for Every 3" and 4" barrel pistol I've owned (Shield, G19, XDMc, G26, XDsc, PF-9) out to 15yds as well. After that, Pic #2 works.

Even the Subcompacts (and Compacts) I've rented (LC9, Nano, P938, XD-S, 709 Slim, SR9c, PM9, etc) were all Pic #3.

Seems like that would be true for realistic SD ranges, like up to about 30 feet. Bullets are still on the raise from the muzzle, so holding a higher POA would tend to be closer to POI. That's logical.

This is a good thread for me, because even knowing what you said (and I know), I was planning on starting out with a center of mass POA with my yet unfired Shield 9mm. Sometimes the obvious escapes me. I do a lot more bullseye pistol shooting, and 100+ yd rifle shooting where my sights are adjusted for center of bullseye holds. So a bit of a mind-readjustment is required for training with a SD pistol, well, those without adjustable sights obviously.

[Rastoff]

I wish I had seen this thread earlier. That picture has been floating around the web for a long time now and it's confusing.

Originally Posted by tedburns3

Combat sight picture #3 would apply using deductive reasoning. It may not be correct, but... makes sense to me without taking other factors into consideration. These sights are referred to as 'combat sights' for a reason. Duh

Alas, even though they are called combat sights, #3 is not the correct sight picture. Here's why...

#3 as shown in the OP is impossible. What? Why Rastoff, I use it all the time so, obviously it's possible! OK, I know you think you're using it, but in reality you can't. You see, the picture shows all three dots as the same size. Because the actual sights are physically the same size, the front sight will appear smaller because it's further away. So, the real sight picture will look like this:



As you can see, the front sight dot is much smaller than the rear sight dots. So, if you want to use #3, how do you line up the dots? Line up the top of the dots? Put the front dot in the middle of the rear dots?

By using #2 though, the fact of the front sight appearing smaller is irrelevant. So, lining up the tops of the sights is the most correct way.


Alright, alright, before y'all pounce on me about what the Sig manual or your favorite instructor and 50 year combat vet says, there is a caveat. The difference between #2 and #3 at the target will be so small as to be immeasurable by a normal shooter. But Rastoff, you just said....??? Yes, I know what I said, but you also have to take into account how the sights work.

Iron or open sights work by aligning the barrel with the target. Misaligned sights create angles that cause the bullet to be further off target the further away that target is. So, if one shooter uses #2 correctly and another uses #3 correctly, both will have the barrel aligned with the target. Because #3 is raising the barrel about 1/16" higher, the bullets will hit about that much higher on the target. Does anyone care if they hit 1/16" higher? If you do, this is the wrong gun and you need to sell it and get a proper bullseye gun.

Now, because the dots are not visually the same size, it will be harder to get a consistent alignment when using #3. Thus, it will be easier to maintain a consistent group with #2. But that's only for really precision shooting. For combat shooting, either will work just as well.

So, go ahead and use #2 or #3 if you like. #2 is how the gun was made to be used, but #3 won't hurt you in competition or when trying to hit the bad guy.

[Rastoff]

Oh yeah, one more thing. Anyone using the 6 o'clock hold with an M&P is just off their rocker. That is for target shooters only. I would explain why, but I'm tired of typing.

[papersniper]

Anyone have any personal or empirical information on POI differences with different bullet weights? I will carry 124-147 gr bullets loaded to around 1050 fps; what I'm calling non +P velocity. I have not tested my 9mm Shield yet to know which one, but Speer 124 gr Gold Dot (not the +p) is the one I'll try first. However, I can get 115 gr FMJ (Perfecta, Monach Brass, Win White Box, etc) which costs about half what the SGD costs. I realize I probably will have more FTE, FTF etc with the inexpensive stuff, but I'm okay with that as that in itself is good training also, and I can live with a 5% or so failure rate......as long as the gun doesn't blow up!

However, I don't want to train with something that is not consistent with the recoil, POI, etc from my carry ammo.

So I'm curious about recoil and POI difference between a 115 gr and a 124 gr bullet, assuming both are not Plus P (which I tend to not use in any gun).

[Rastoff]

Yes, papersniper, the empirical evidence you seek is out there. You're gonna have to do your own google searching for it though I'm just not interested enough to do it.

I can tell you that the recoil difference is small between the bullet weights. It also depends on speed. So, a 115gr bullet at 1,200FPS will give the same recoil as a 147gr bullet at 950FPS.

[papersniper]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Yes, papersniper, the empirical evidence you seek is out there. You're gonna have to do your own google searching for it though I'm just not interested enough to do it.

I can tell you that the recoil difference is small between the bullet weights. It also depends on speed. So, a 115gr bullet at 1,200FPS will give the same recoil as a 147gr bullet at 950FPS.

Yeah, I found some info on the POI differences....doesn't seem significant for SD ranges of under 30 feet or so.....now how can you say you're not interested enough to tell me.

And I'm going to stick with 124 gr bullets for now.....I think....but I'm always up for great prices or convincing arguments that other weights might be better!