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Old 05-10-2017, 01:02 PM
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Default Ruger ARX .45 for the Shield 45

The S&W Shield is a light gun, and some are concerned with recoil from such a light gun. With Ruger ARX ammo, your carry gun can now become lighter to carry AND have less recoil.

What are the forum members idea on using Ruger ARX in their S&W Shield .45? I have seen YouTube videos that are impressive, even being shot though a 2X4 and into gelatin 11 inches.

Now, your thoughts.....
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Old 05-10-2017, 01:34 PM
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Lightweight exotic bullets are superb for two purposes:
1. The ultra lightweight bullet decreases recoil.
2. The high cost greatly increases profits for companies.


For small lightweight defense guns, key questions are functional reliability and point of impact vs POA.
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:03 PM
ScaryWoody ScaryWoody is offline
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I'll buy a box or two. I like to try new things. Especially with 15% lower recoil, maybe my wife would carry her Shield 45 more.
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:19 PM
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When I started out in Law Enforcement, carrying the "Black Talon" in my duty weapon was considered exotic. My first introduction to "Hydra Shock" was a .38 spcl. that was simply lead with a post in the hollow center, sort of short over all length. So I am not opposed to new bullet designs.
Look at all the improvements that were to just one bullet, the Winchester Talon. Newer Ranger T are a marked improvement of the older stuff I had available to me as a Deputy, back in the late 1980s.

For the .380, this bullet is giving new life to an otherwise very anemic caliber for personal defense. In .45 the bullet is only 118gr, typical of what you see for light 9mm but spitting out at 1307 fps. It goes through tough barriers, representing bone like forearm, and still manages to penetrate ballistic gelatin.

How much they loose in performance in the 3" Shield is the question.


All I just said is what I have witnessed so far on write ups and You Tube users.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:06 PM
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I bought a box of Ruger .380 ARX bullets today for my wife's (mine) Bersa Thunder .380. Shot it and it was like shooting a 22 pistol. Pretty accurate as well as no feeding issues. She'll like the low recoil.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:53 AM
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Most of the "New" ammunition, such as JHP, did not come out until 1963, when Lee Jurras introduced the first jacketed hollow-point ammunition to the commercial market. That started the "Ammo Wars" among ammunition manufacturers to see who could "skin the cat" in a more effective mean.

Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by a single bullet, a .38 spcl standard velocity round fired form a 2" Colt Cobra at a very close range. Back in those days it was either FMJ or Lead Round Nose or semi or full wadcutters. I had a friend in Nebraska that handloaded HOT 38 special wadcutters "backward" - cup side first- for his short .38 special Colt. It as more effective than many of the simple RNL or FJM of the day. Talking in late 1960s, early 1970s. He was a genius when it came to guns and cameras.

Point is, there comes a time when our technology throws us shooters and carry people, a new curve ball in ammunition design to be "most" effective in all elements. When a hollow point like the HST or Ranger T (and others) open up they immediately become brakes to limit the distance traveled. Too much expansion too soon and they bullet does not penetrate to a decent depth. Little or no expansion and then the tumbling effect is about the only thing that helps to slow down the bullet so it does not over penetrate. Rounds under 1,000 fps our of pistols have difficulty causing a hydraulic effect to damage or cause shut down. Rifle bullets, even small rifle bullets as small as .223 out of a 220 Swift (extreme example) are so fast that their damage is not from the actual bullet cutting but the explosive effect it has on internal organs, leading to knock down and death. Pistol bullets, like this new ARX design that can jump up to 1200 + fps give a new meaning to effect "IF" they can hold together to penetrate. These new Ruger bullets appear to have abridged those obstacles with the design to channel fluids away from the bullet, which in turn does cause it to quickly slow down.

I'd rather carry and shoot my Bersa Thunder .22 as recoil is light and so is the pistol. But it is kind of a last resort against large threats. Ideally it would shoot a .44 magnum at the speed of a .22 and have little to no recoil... but that is just wishful thinking. I don't need recoil, and neither do you.

Hope some of this makes some sense....
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:56 AM
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No concerns about recoil. I shoot what's been proven

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:04 AM
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The Shield .45 recoil is not really a problem for me. I'll be sticking with the big ol' 230 gr. standard pressure HST rounds.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:20 AM
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I have no issues with recoil either and current carry load is Winchester Ranger T +P. Started out when I was 18 with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Rem Magnum. Techically Mom's but in Nebraska back then I could carry and posses my mother's pistol.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:23 AM
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I too, used to load .38 specials with HBWCs backward for a home defense round. At <10 feet it would mushroom like heck. Anything > 10 feet was iffy because the bullet would tend to tumble with the heavy end wanting to be up front I guess. Got many targets with rectangular holes (bullets hit sideways), which may not be bad in a self defense situation, and many bullets fired into a trashcan full of water, which was the best bullet performance medium I have, that showed no expansion when fired from a distance. Bad thing was, accuracy went to heck in a hurry.
Sadly, HBWCs are scarce as hens teeth lately.

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Old 05-11-2017, 03:18 PM
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Where does it all end? Could we someday see 20-grain .45 cal. bullets shaped like sticker burrs with 2500 fps muzzle velocities?
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:17 PM
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Liberty Civil Defense Ammo makes a 78 grain round. What it lacks in weight it makes up for in speed going nearly 2,000 fps. Plus, it's lead free so Environmentalists won't mind getting shot by it.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:24 PM
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I carry Federal 165 gr. Hydra Shok in my CS 45. Shoots great, lighter recoil. It still makes a big hole.
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:36 AM
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Here are 2 links to pertinent info on this "unique" round
First is from US Concealed Carry (Delta Defense) website:

Polycase Inceptor ARX 9mm Self-Defense Ammo | USCCA Review

Second link is Polycase website depicting Ruger ammo. You can click on any of the calibers and get an idea of weight of bullet and other details.

I have seen it in .45 ACP shoot through a piece of 2X4 and then still go 11" into ballistic gelatin. It is a round that is never plugged or affected by denim, leather jackets, and other material that has a tendency to plug the hollow point of the "tried and proven" rounds of well known ammunition manufacturers.

Light on recoil means more women might carry larger pistols and feel comfortable shooting them. Barrier resistant means no matter winter or summer it doesn't get affected by what the bad guy is wearing. Lighter recoil also demonstrates faster follow up shots, as seen on Youtube.

I bought a box for my P320 9mm yesterday and shot a target with some of them. The 9mm Sig felt like I was shooting a .380 or .32. Accuracy was excellent, and the pistol loaded with 15+1 was noticeably lighter.
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Old 05-14-2017, 01:13 AM
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Bought some more 9mm Ruger ARX ammo today as well as the .45 ACP version Ruger ARX. Doing some shooting this evening, I noticed that on the 9mm it said "Inceptor", I bought these at Dunham's Sports the other day. "THOSE" 9mm Ruger ARX, besides being marked Inceptor on the brass were only 65 grain, and 1620 FPS/ 379 Ft. Lb. The Ruger ARX 9mm +P I bought at Field & Stream in Kalamazoo are 80 gr, 1445 fps / 371 Ft.Lbs. Lower velocity, heavier bullet and the foot pounds of energy is only a difference of 8 ft.LB.

I kind of feel bad shooting up the "Inceptor" branded, lighter bullets at targets since they may be an earlier and phased out run of bullets. Saved the rest of 10 though
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:58 AM
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Bullet designs similar to the ARX have been around for decades and have been tested and found to cause wounds similar to FMJ. Stick to tested and reputable hollow points instead.

Before asking "What ammo should I use?" you should ask "What should ammo do, what shouldn't it do, and how is it tested?" I recommend the following:
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness from the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI
Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Ordnance gelatin test assessment for rifle and pistol calibers by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
What's Wrong With The Wound Ballistics Literature And Why by Dr. Fackler

For specific recommendations I start here:
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Then here (for 9mm and 380):
9mm Ammo Quest on Youtube by ShootingTheBull410
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:22 AM
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Thanks for those links. I have the FBI one posted on my website at Website and Information Links.

Yes the question is "What should ammo do, what shouldn't it do, and how is it tested?". It should stop the threat. If it is an expanding type bullet (like hollowpoint) it should expand and not exit. Problem is they (different HP bullet designs), don't always like the barrier (clothing/coats-jackets, leather) and consequently the HP end gets plugged and does not act like a HP anymore, but a hot loaded FJM with potential of pass through, or only the effect of the un-expanded bullet that "could" tumble (best scenario).

Lucky Gunner has done hundreds of tests of various bullets from well known manufacturers. They used standard FBI protocol 4 layer denim and ordinance gel. This is their link. Look at it at examples of good HP bullets that were unable to work as designed. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/

Years ago, when I was a Deputy, our department issued us Glock .40 S&W. Plastic guns. There was no active forums back then but you should have heard the screams and clamor of trusting your life to a gun made of plastic! Times changed and now polymer pistols are everywhere, made by just about every manufacturer out there.

Now this bullet is not like other that have come before it. It's not metal, It's polymer-copper mix, making it strong and lightweight. It's not a FMJ because of the special 3 grooves molded into the side that use hydraulic fluids (body fluid) to 1. slow down the bullet, and 2. increase directional flow of those fluids away from the body, increasing wound channel, unlike a FMJ, and most important, not overpenetrating, but penetrating enough to do some good.

This article, American Rifleman | Tested: The Polycase ARX Bullet from American Rifleman, has a lot more background on the development of the ARX bullet. The idea of the shape and 3 slot design was not random, nor just to make some sort of marketing hype. An excerpt from that articles said.... "PolyCase ballistics engineers—along with third-party aerospace and fluid engineers—spent months experimenting with aero and fluid dynamics using Finite Element Modeling (FEM), which led to the design of uniquely shaped flutes, or channels, the company calls Power Blades. The flutes act to displace the target material using the bullet’s forward and rotational momentum, or “lateral force dispersion.”

It's not a FMJ, but to cloth and bone acts like one. It's not a HP, but in this respect it disrupts tissue and penetrates to be able to hit vital organs.
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
2. increase directional flow of those fluids away from the body, increasing wound channel,
I am claiming, based on public statements by Dr. Roberts, that fluted pistol bullet designs are incapable of significantly and reliably increasing wound diameter.

This is a picture of the Devel bullet which was filed with the USPTO in 1991. The ARX is nothing new. It is like applying CAD to a perpetual motion machine. It cannot work.

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Old 05-17-2017, 08:30 AM
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It does concern me that even well known, name brand ammunition, performs sub standard at times. Below is a RA45T Winchester Ranger T .45 bullet recovered after being shot with my Sig P320 .45. I have other of the same batch that left 2 of the 6 talons completely folded up inside the hollow point body. This may as well have been a full metal jacket for all the good it did.



This is why I was looking at the Ruger ARX bullets. If a hollow point plugs up going through cloth and fails, all it becomes is a fast FMJ that probably will exit. At least with the ARX bullet it already was a non-hollow point and perhaps with the rotational effect of the grooves, would do some damage and not exit.
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Old 05-20-2017, 08:28 PM
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Today I took the Bersa Thunder .380 out to do some testing with the Ruger ARX ammo. I wanted to see how it would do if shot into similar situation to a human torso. I used a piece of flexible rubber scrap that we use to cover tank tops and seal them. it is 1.78mm or about 0.070" think, and pretty resilient. I used it to replace skin. Then I used some Beef Ribs that I bought that are to be used as dog treats, individually wrapped in plastic, that would represent a human's rib. However, anyone familiar with biology structure will know that a cow rib is thicker and larger than a human's rib. So I figured it was the extreme test of rib penetration. Behind it 1 gallon water jugs.

I shot through the rubber, through the rib, and through the 1st jug, which had a large rupture, and into the 2nd jug that almost, but not quite went through the 2nd jug. It hit the other side and caused a crack but the bullet was still in the 2nd jug. This shows me that a torso shot on a human would penetrate skin and bone and also deliver enough energy to drive deep enough to hit the heart, and probably lodge in the back without exiting. This is the lowest of the self defense pistols I have, and wanted to see how it would work. Obviously 9mm and .45 ACP would complete the job in spades.

My wife, who cannot handle very much recoil due to pain and arthritis issues, can shoot this .380 Bersa Thunder, and loves it now that is less recoil. Would it stop a "Bad Guy"? Depends. Most people (90 %) run away at the mere showing of a firearm. If struck, there is the psychological element , "I'm shot!" and then there is the fact that this round should put enough pain and injury to cause panic and flight. Multiple shots might be needed, but multiple shots might be needed on any aggressor regardless of the caliber or bullet, EVEN HST or Ranter T. In other words, THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE guarantee any pistol will kill an intruder.

Below are pictures showing the rubber piece 1.78mm, the rib which is around .257" where the bullet entered, and shows entry and exit. And the pic of the water jug of the bullet entering immediately after the rib, and then the final bullet.

The beef rib bone before shooting, covered in plastic.


The rubber "imitation" skin...



Bullet enters the rib this side:



Bullet exits the rib:



Ruger 380 ARX enters water jug after just exiting rib.



Ruger .380 ARX bullet after rubber, rib, 2 gallon jugs of water:
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Aksarben View Post
Today I took the Bersa Thunder .380 out to do some testing with the Ruger ARX ammo. I wanted to see how it would do if shot into similar situation to a human torso. I used a piece of flexible rubber scrap that we use to cover tank tops and seal them. it is 1.78mm or about 0.070" think, and pretty resilient. I used it to replace skin. Then I used some Beef Ribs that I bought that are to be used as dog treats, individually wrapped in plastic, that would represent a human's rib. However, anyone familiar with biology structure will know that a cow rib is thicker and larger than a human's rib. So I figured it was the extreme test of rib penetration. Behind it 1 gallon water jugs.

I shot through the rubber, through the rib, and through the 1st jug, which had a large rupture, and into the 2nd jug that almost, but not quite went through the 2nd jug. It hit the other side and caused a crack but the bullet was still in the 2nd jug. This shows me that a torso shot on a human would penetrate skin and bone and also deliver enough energy to drive deep enough to hit the heart, and probably lodge in the back without exiting. This is the lowest of the self defense pistols I have, and wanted to see how it would work. Obviously 9mm and .45 ACP would complete the job in spades.

My wife, who cannot handle very much recoil due to pain and arthritis issues, can shoot this .380 Bersa Thunder, and loves it now that is less recoil. Would it stop a "Bad Guy"? Depends. Most people (90 %) run away at the mere showing of a firearm. If struck, there is the psychological element , "I'm shot!" and then there is the fact that this round should put enough pain and injury to cause panic and flight. Multiple shots might be needed, but multiple shots might be needed on any aggressor regardless of the caliber or bullet, EVEN HST or Ranter T. In other words, THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE guarantee any pistol will kill an intruder.

Below are pictures showing the rubber piece 1.78mm, the rib which is around .257" where the bullet entered, and shows entry and exit. And the pic of the water jug of the bullet entering immediately after the rib, and then the final bullet.

The beef rib bone before shooting, covered in plastic.


The rubber "imitation" skin...



Bullet enters the rib this side:



Bullet exits the rib:



Ruger 380 ARX enters water jug after just exiting rib.



Ruger .380 ARX bullet after rubber, rib, 2 gallon jugs of water:
Thanks for all your post
I think most of us don't a place where we could do our own test, muchless the expendable funds to do it.
I to have a Bersa Thunder 380 mine is the CC model I currently have HST in it but I am going to look for some ARX if nothing else just to compare the recoil.
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:07 PM
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Thanks for all your post
I think most of us don't a place where we could do our own test, muchless the expendable funds to do it.
I to have a Bersa Thunder 380 mine is the CC model I currently have HST in it but I am going to look for some ARX if nothing else just to compare the recoil.
You'll be surprised! I told my wife, to her happy surprise, that the recoil reminds me of shooting a .22 LR. For those that are limited, one way or another, to shooting pistols because of health issues, this will be a boon. I have to doubt, and I'm betting my life on it (as it is now the carry ammo of the 9mm and S&W Shield 45) that it will stop an attack.

Bullets are one design purpose, and that is to halt an attack. If you have good shot placement, calibers don't matter as much. What matters is, 1. it reliably feeds and functions (enough energy to work the slide, eject, etc) 2. That it stops the threat. That's all you need. This ammo, by it's very design, is cloth-barrier blind, so no matter what clothing they are wearing it doesn't matter, and after it punches through their rib it's going to continue on, without exiting. If the .380 can puncture a larger cow rib, it won't have difficulty with a human rib. If it can go though 2 gallons of water jugs, it will make it deep inside and likely not exit.

Hollow points "have" to expand just to slow them down since they are heavy bullets. Or else, no expansion, it's onward and on through and through.

The 9mm +P (either the 80 grain, earlier design, or the 65 grain) and .45ACP are certainly more capable than the lowly .380, so I figure, give it (the ARX) the least of the calibers to see what it can do. Sort of make the .380 more of a pocket gun choice now, doesn't it.
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Aksarben View Post
You'll be surprised! I told my wife, to her happy surprise, that the recoil reminds me of shooting a .22 LR. For those that are limited, one way or another, to shooting pistols because of health issues, this will be a boon. I have to doubt, and I'm betting my life on it (as it is now the carry ammo of the 9mm and S&W Shield 45) that it will stop an attack.

Bullets are one design purpose, and that is to halt an attack. If you have good shot placement, calibers don't matter as much. What matters is, 1. it reliably feeds and functions (enough energy to work the slide, eject, etc) 2. That it stops the threat. That's all you need. This ammo, by it's very design, is cloth-barrier blind, so no matter what clothing they are wearing it doesn't matter, and after it punches through their rib it's going to continue on, without exiting. If the .380 can puncture a larger cow rib, it won't have difficulty with a human rib. If it can go though 2 gallons of water jugs, it will make it deep inside and likely not exit.

Hollow points "have" to expand just to slow them down since they are heavy bullets. Or else, no expansion, it's onward and on through and through.

The 9mm +P (either the 80 grain, earlier design, or the 65 grain) and .45ACP are certainly more capable than the lowly .380, so I figure, give it (the ARX) the least of the calibers to see what it can do. Sort of make the .380 more of a pocket gun choice now, doesn't it.
Recoil as a rule does not cause me a problem, I have had surgery on my shooting hand but it only pains me after long range shooting trips, I mostly carry 380 in the Bersa ( not a pocket pistol to me ) IWB or LCP II pocket & IWB. I do have a 1911 45 ACP, M&P 9c, SD9ve & SN 38 sp. What you said about shot placement I find to be true no matter what I shoot, no matter how much you are affected by recoil it does have some affect & the less the recoil to sooner you can place another shot back on target.
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:27 AM
bigbob76 bigbob76 is offline
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I believe there is a lot of good information here, thank you very much. I would like to buy enough of the ARX ammo to shoot and convince myself that it is reliable in both my Shield 9 and 45.
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