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Old 08-12-2017, 09:40 AM
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Default I can buy an M&P 9mm Shield for maybe $250

And it would be off the books, with one magazine included.

What say you guys?

I have TONS of 9mm pistols... which makes this gun not very interesting BUT... it is off the books.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:59 AM
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Few dollars more get a new one with three mags and rebate extra mags ammo and a loader.

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Old 08-12-2017, 10:03 AM
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What does "off the books" mean?
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
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What does "off the books" mean?
I would like to know what that means also. Please elaborate
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:33 AM
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It means it is a private sale between two people. The sale does not go through an FFL.

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Old 08-12-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSDeputy View Post
It means it is a private sale between two people. The sale does not go through an FFL.
Then it cannot legally be mailed, or shipped anywhere. Doing so would (should) involve an FFL.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:43 AM
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It means it is a private sale between two people. The sale does not go through an FFL.
Thanks. Living in the communist state that I do, that is a prohibited transaction. We cant circumvent the NICS check. That goes for long guns also, since the unlawful "safe act was passed".
Every private sale needs to go through an FFL, with a fee of course.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:51 AM
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"Off the books" in my neck of the woods means no FFL involved in the specific sale (no 4473). It does not mean that the firearm vanishes, because if the ATF shows up at my door looking for a gun that I've sold privately, I'll know who got it.

That in itself does not make it impossible to ship it via the normal routes for repairs if needed to S&W, or to resell privately or through LGS UNLESS it was a seizure gun that will show up on a check.

Having the ability to make private sales between trusted individuals is an important right here in TX.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:18 PM
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I live in TX and will not sell face to face unless they have a license to carry.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoc9sw View Post
"Off the books" in my neck of the woods means no FFL involved in the specific sale (no 4473). It does not mean that the firearm vanishes, because if the ATF shows up at my door looking for a gun that I've sold privately, I'll know who got it.

That in itself does not make it impossible to ship it via the normal routes for repairs if needed to S&W, or to resell privately or through LGS UNLESS it was a seizure gun that will show up on a check.

Having the ability to make private sales between trusted individuals is an important right here in TX.
Well I KNOW what it means. I just didn't like the connotation of "off the books" as if it were somehow illegal. Perfectly legal in Louisiana for a face to face sale. LA law states that sale of a movable is completed and ownership passes when the thing sold is delivered to the purchaser ( the law assumes that it wouldn't be delivered until da money is handed to the seller-we coonasses ain't stupid ). Certain things like cars and boats have to be titles so the state can get their cut but offhand I can think of no other movable property sales in Louisiana between private persons that require any documentation.
Now to brag on our constitutional right to arm bears. I quote as follows:
Article I, 11 of the Louisiana State Constitution currently provides: “The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms is fundamental and shall not be infringed. Any restriction on this right shall be subject to strict scrutiny.” This was the result of a constitutional amendment, enacted via ballot measure in 2012. Prior to this amendment, Article I, 11 had read: “The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.” We wanted to make sure that the Courts understood what we meant by the rights to keep and bear arms-that if you want to in any way limit that right you better have a good reason and the law will undergo the higher test of strict scrutiny.
Now pass dem crawfish please..........
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:16 PM
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I'd pass on that one. New are about $300 and you get some nice accessories in the mail.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:39 PM
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I'm not a fan of sales or other transfers needing to go through an FFL, for many reasons. We had that stuffed down our throats here a couple years back.

BUT: Remember that this forum is open to the public, and that use of phrases like "off the books" conveys a different meaning to at least some people than a perfectly lawful face to face transfer of lawfully owned private property. There are a lot of people out in the anti-gun world who would latch on to that as evidence of some kind of improper purpose. They hate us, and they have no shame about lying. Making an imprecise statement that enables them in their disgusting conduct is something we should avoid.
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:23 PM
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If that gun had been used in a crime, how do you prove that you did not do it? I'd pass, buy a new one from an FFL and send for the rebates/free accessories.
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:41 PM
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All it takes is a bill of sale and exchange of ID info for a sale between individuals okay protecting the seller and buyer. You got to watch you don't buy a hot gun though. If the seller is original owner it is a major plus.
I only sell or buy from an FFL or face to face.

With the rebates from S&W you can possibly buy a new one for about same money if the rebates are still offered.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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Boy. I was hoping for a price discussion.

Little did I know that calling it an "off the books" sale instead of a "private face to face sale" would cause such a stir.

So Congress and the media are out looking for someone like me to use an off the cuff phrase to bring private gun sales into the national spotlight? I never dreamt that I would be the catalyst for such a hot topic. I guess it has never ever been mentioned before until I let the cat out of the bag and triggered some internet algorithm that all the antis would swirl around.

Gun Show Loopholes, face-to-face transfers, et.al guys.

Jeeez. I am just one little guy in a great big world.

So I got a suggestion that the price might be less than attractive.

Thanks.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:56 AM
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And BTW, though none of you brothers of mine would possibly know this:

EVERY SINGLE FIREARM I OWN and POSESS was bought thru a Form 4473 at an FFL.

So I thought it would be kinda cool to own maybe ONE pistol that wasn't on anybody's books.

It's casual. No reason to be alarmed. Really, I sure hate that I mentioned such an irresponsible topic.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:07 AM
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If it checks out mechanically $250 is a good price. There have been wild swings in Shield 9 pricing (anyone remember not finding any at $450 during the last shortage?) but hard to beat one at the offered price. Good luck in your decision .
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:11 AM
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Private sales are perfectly legal in most states. Here in Georgia, guns get passed around like candy bars and popcorn. Many people will pay a premium for a gun in private sale. Most of the time the seller doesn't even know who you are and will certainly not have clue who he sold the gun to. At any gun show here, you can walk around and find private sellers with tables set up like the rest of the dealers. . .except they are not dealers, just guys trying to sell off some guns. The liberals like to call this the "gun show loophole" that they would like to eliminate. Too bad for them. They are not holding the cards to win this hand right now.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:15 AM
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The pistol was owned by my recently deceased brother-in-law who recently used another S&W pistol (Bodyguard .380) to blast a JHP thru his cranium.

His dad has Ken's guns and doesn't want any of them near him. He has asked me to help sell them. He had some pawn shop guy suggest a selling price. That was the $250 I first brought up. I don't think it is worth anywhere near that with only one mag.

But the ownership and lack of stolen status is not an issue. This would be a perfectly "safe" and LEGAL transaction.

Stop worrying so much y'all.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:21 AM
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My condolences for your loss.
But with all due respect the tone of your opening post suggested otherwise. If you were just interested in asking if $250 was a fair price the gratuitious mention of off the books is what set the tone of the discourse. I do not make a decision on whether or not to buy a gun based on whether or not I need to fill out a 4473. Granted I have several that I obtained without a 4473 buy my dad had to fill one out for each of them as did the LEO's I bought them from. The ONLY gun I own that doesn't have a 4473 in it's pedigree would by the 1953 Ruger that was my grandfather's.
I'm too old now to be paranoid-it just takes away energy from being pissed off at everything
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gman51 View Post
All it takes is a bill of sale and exchange of ID info for a sale between individuals okay protecting the seller and buyer. You got to watch you don't buy a hot gun though. If the seller is original owner it is a major plus.
I only sell or buy from an FFL or face to face.

With the rebates from S&W you can possibly buy a new one for about same money if the rebates are still offered.
1. Don't know about Texas law, but a private sale anywhere I have been LEGALLY does not address ID or Bill of Sale being involved. It is up to you to require an ID if you want. It's your gun. I have bought guns at yard sales. No ID, no names, etc. Now though, as an FFL any gun purchase I make has to go in my A&D book. (per my ATF agent).

2. Sending a firearm to be repaired (factory or FFL gunsmith) does NOT require involvement of FFL on sender's end, nor when repairs are complete. Gun can be sent to SAME person at SAME address with no FFL. Copy of ID or Driver's License should accompany shipment.

3. Too bad the Left jumps on common phraseology on our side, but it's true. No harm, no foul. Just a sensitive term.....
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:26 PM
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On the price, I recently got a great deal on a Shield 9mm from PSA. It was 274.00, before the 75.00 rebate. So, 199.00 afterward. 250.00 for a used one would seem high to me.


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Old 08-13-2017, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitesite View Post
Little did I know that calling it an "off the books" sale instead of a "private face to face sale" would cause such a stir.

So Congress and the media are out looking for someone like me to use an off the cuff phrase to bring private gun sales into the national spotlight? I never dreamt that I would be the catalyst for such a hot topic. I guess it has never ever been mentioned before until I let the cat out of the bag and triggered some internet algorithm that all the antis would swirl around.

Gun Show Loopholes, face-to-face transfers, et.al guys.

Jeeez. I am just one little guy in a great big world.

So I got a suggestion that the price might be less than attractive.

Thanks.
*
I dunno if the price is all that bad.

As for my response, I 'm not trying to be a Richard Noggin. I am, however, a professional nerd, and make my living as such. Among the things I have to watch, is using imprecise phrasing that does not convey the correct information. I also make use of the imprecise phrasing of others to knock holes in their arguments, mock them, etc. I have also spent most of the last 4 years dealing with the misuse of language in the context of false claims of law enforcement misconduct.

I did not think that you were suggesting any improper or unlawful conduct, but there are people who would. The do hate us, and they do use our imprecise language against us when they can, not to mention making up there own (such as one you point out - "gun show loophole", which as all of us know, is utter BS). I belong to a forum which is not open or generally searchable (there is a setting in at least some forum software that allows for that), and even there, the concern about such imprecision is a big deal. Combine my professional background and the socialization from that forum, and I tend to be ... cautious. Maybe "sensitive" is the better word to use.
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:49 PM
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I spent a lot of time in my past life around folks who wanted a "throw-down" gun, and that always comes first to mind when someone asks about "off the books".

Your clarification adds a lot. Yes, $250 would be nice for the family, but not a great deal for you, unless you just want to be of financial help without just handing them money. They will certainly not get much more than $150 selling it to a LGS, if that.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:43 PM
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Here's your price discussion.. You get what you pay for. Personally, with all the problems with Shields I constantly read on this forum I wouldn't buy one.
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Old 08-13-2017, 04:45 PM
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Shields don't have that many problems...must be you..all mine work perfect.

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Old 08-13-2017, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Trapper View Post
If that gun had been used in a crime, how do you prove that you did not do it? I'd pass, buy a new one from an FFL and send for the rebates/free accessories.
I bought a used Sig 1911 face to face. I got the serial number beforehand, and checked it on line to make sure it didn't have a record.

Not a sure check, but a good check to do.

Mark
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:25 AM
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lol, "off the books" is scary now? hell, half the weapons I own were bought through private sellers. the less information the govt has about you the better
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Old 08-14-2017, 06:39 AM
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Well...... you are on a public gun forum

You can well bet that someone from the Govt is reading the forum.....

Maybe not so off the books as you would like

Face to face sales are still legal

I check drivers licensce. If the person is even a bit fidgety, I dont make the sale.......Its not a fool proof method, but I have seen some "fidgety folks.........

On the price, up to you. I would say check the firearm, take it apart and it it looks ok, offer a price that you feel is fair

But ..... the new deals are very aggresssive
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Old 08-14-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SanMarMor View Post
I bought a used Sig 1911 face to face. I got the serial number beforehand, and checked it on line to make sure it didn't have a record.

Not a sure check, but a good check to do.

Mark
Sir, would you please share with us the source/database that you used to confirm crime involvement status of a firearm? Thanks in advance.
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Old 08-14-2017, 12:57 PM
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Only check i would trust be from police dept...can't believe everything on internet...

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Old 08-14-2017, 08:58 PM
SanMarMor SanMarMor is offline
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Originally Posted by jim46ok View Post
Sir, would you please share with us the source/database that you used to confirm crime involvement status of a firearm? Thanks in advance.
I guess it t was just a stolen gun database. It's been a while, so I didn't remember what it was.


HotGunz Stolen Gun Search
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  #33  
Old 08-15-2017, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by alleycat7002 View Post
Few dollars more get a new one with three mags and rebate extra mags ammo and a loader.
Pretty much nailed it ^ on the very first repsonse.
As to the use of the term "off the books" that caused so many folks to swallow their gum and start hyperventilating, I knew what the guy meant, and never took it as meaning an attempt to circumvent the law.
I often use the term, "off-grid" in the same sense, but wait, I guess that one has negative conotations of being a, "loner,anti-government, anti-technology, home-schooling, White-seperatist,survivalist, militia-member" ?
And, while I appreciate the potential upsides to having legally-acquired,paperless firearms, in this modern era, we're all already on so many data bases and psych profiles (from Google to the government, assuming there's a distinction there), it doesn't much matter.
If anyone is ever on their radar enough that the JBT's show up at your door with a list of serial numbers, they're not leaving without running a metal detector over everything, and they're not going to be persuaded by the popular (and embarrassingly stupid) "lost them in a boat accident" argument.
So, back on point, tell the guy what the Shields are currently going for, and offer him $200, then order a couple extra mags from magazinewarehouse !!

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  #34  
Old 08-15-2017, 09:33 PM
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Verify the serial number as not being stolen and get a copy of the sellers driver license, if your comfortable with the condition of the pistol go for it, $250 ain't bad, additional magazines can be found pretty inexpensive.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:53 AM
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I'd do it that deal.
A friend of mine has a few "off the book" guns, all purchased legally here in Vermont via FTF transactions. He says they are his most prized guns, for obvious reasons.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by CGhelofxr View Post
Verify the serial number as not being stolen and get a copy of the sellers driver license, if your comfortable with the condition of the pistol go for it, $250 ain't bad, additional magazines can be found pretty inexpensive.
heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellll no would I ever allow some private citizen to get a copy of my DL.. that's how stolen identities work. I work in the tech business and that is one of the most common ways of identity theft, a captured image of your DL.... someone can glance at it, but no pictures or copies. someone asks for that in a sale and I turn and walk
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:39 PM
bblhd672 bblhd672 is offline
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Originally Posted by nitesite View Post
with one magazine included.
I'd offer $150 for a used Shield with one mag.

Tons of new Shields have been sold recently and S&W is still pushing them out the door with incentives. I paid $200 for my second Shield (after I eventually get the $75 rebate).
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:49 PM
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FYI, my dealer here in Vermont currently them on sale for $299 with a extra mag.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:23 PM
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I'd offer $150 for a used Shield with one mag.

Tons of new Shields have been sold recently and S&W is still pushing them out the door with incentives. I paid $200 for my second Shield (after I eventually get the $75 rebate).
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FYI, my dealer here in Vermont currently them on sale for $299 with a extra mag.
Amazing isn't it? It wasn't all that long ago that I bought my first Shield 9mm for $400 and was told I was getting the "deal of a lifetime" by the shop owner. 13 months later, I bought my wife's Shield 9mm for $300 and was told I was getting the "deal of a lifetime" yet again.

Now they are $200 after rebate... and folks are again saying it is the "deal of a lifetime"...

And don't ask me about my Shield .45, bought just hours before they announced the $75 rebate. Yes, that was another "deal of a lifetime" too.

And folks wonder why I have now sworn off cheap plastic wonder guns forever.
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