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Old 08-15-2017, 07:18 PM
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Love it and noticed mags will hold 18 rounds instead of 17 as listed, the Mecgar +2 mag extensions work fine and now holds 20 rounds but the mag with the + 2 the mag does need a little slap to lock in place!

The CZ + 2 bases will fit mags but not gun since they are about 1/8" higher then the Mecgars.

What is the Black finish on it?
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Old 08-15-2017, 08:27 PM
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Congrats!! they are nice... I'm pretty impressed with mine. The finish is the same type that is on most black colored guns these days which is a melonite\amornite\ salt bath nitride (SBN) treatment with some sort of phosphate type treatment to make it black. nitride treatment usually gives more of a shiny gray look but then they use some kind of parkerizing\phosphate type thing to get them black.

thats why if the black gets scuffed or something its still protected by the nitride which is super hard.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:25 AM
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Can you fully seat a mag loaded with 18 if the slide is closed?

If you can, and you start with a gun loaded 18+1, will it fire and then load the top round from the mag - every time?

Manufacturers design and specify their magazines to a particular capacity for engineering reasons (apart from the 10-round nonsense sometimes, which some states are using so successfully to eliminate all gun violence within their borders ). One reason for abiding by listed capacities, which has shown up in threads on "should I unload my magazines between range sessions," is that properly designed and manufactured springs do not wear out by being compressed (they wear out by being cycled, so leave mags loaded and save a decompress/compress cycle) UNLESS the springs are moved beyond their material's elastic limit.

If squeezing an extra round into a magazine crushes the spring beyond its elastic limit it may do damage that either shortens its useful life or adversely affects its reliability. Or both.

So there usually are reasons for NOT loading a magazine beyond its stated capacity.
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:39 PM
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Yes, all works "Fine"! Out of all guns the mags specify X amt. of rounds and the last round is impossible to load unless U use a Mag loader and then U cant push down the bullets at all!

On my VP-9 it holds 15 and specifies that, however it is the only mag besides the MP 2.0 where there is enough room to add 1 more round without any issues of Any type!

So with my 2.0 with the Mecgar +2 it now holds 20 rds. and 1 in chamber just fine and the 2.0 standard mag now holds 18 without any issues and 1 in chamber for a total of 19!

I do understand your concern.
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Old 08-16-2017, 04:47 PM
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That would be a melonite finish my friend, a black finish commonly used on steels, sintered irons, and cast irons to lower friction and improve wear and corrosion resistance.
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Old 08-16-2017, 04:58 PM
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I think its called Armonite but that is the metal treatment underneath the Black finish, which seems to be some type of Polycoat or such!
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:39 PM
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On the 5" FDE model the finish is Armonite used to be called Melonite (which are Metal Treatments) and the FDE color is that *** Cerakote finish!
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:34 PM
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On the 5" FDE model the finish is Armonite used to be called Melonite (which are Metal Treatments) and the FDE color is that *** Cerakote finish!
yeah, the FDE is cerakote... one thing I don't know is if they nitride the slide and then cerakote it because you usually have to sandblast prior to cerakoting and that might defeat the nitride layer. Its almost imperceptibly thin so blasting it might cut right through. I know nitrided steel is very tough but I don't know if it could survive that.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:03 PM
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I did call S&W today and as others have said the person did not know much (Tech Dept.) said the black was Armonite and I told him, I know Armonite is the Metal treatment but what is the black finish that is on top of it and he said its Armonite which he said was black!

Yea right then I asked how on the FDE do they apply the Ceracrap over the Armonite and he did not know!

I also noticed the frames on same Shields are Gray Cerakoted, which surely will wear easy since Keltec had a few yrs. ago simple made many frames in "The White" and them Ceracrapped them and it did not last on the frames and White was showing!

I would never buy any gun with Cerakote which was the reason I did not get the Beretta M9-A3.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:32 PM
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Congrats.....but pics or it didn't happen...lol
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:39 PM
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I did call S&W today and as others have said the person did not know much (Tech Dept.) said the black was Armonite and I told him, I know Armonite is the Metal treatment but what is the black finish that is on top of it and he said its Armonite which he said was black!

Yea right then I asked how on the FDE do they apply the Ceracrap over the Armonite and he did not know!

I also noticed the frames on same Shields are Gray Cerakoted, which surely will wear easy since Keltec had a few yrs. ago simple made many frames in "The White" and them Ceracrapped them and it did not last on the frames and White was showing!

I would never buy any gun with Cerakote which was the reason I did not get the Beretta M9-A3.
I just found out that the black layer is part of the QPQ nitriding. It's the final step where after polishing they put it back in the salt bath for 20-30 mins, rinse at the same temp as the salt bath, and then quench again in oil. Turns the surface black.

As far as cerakote goes... It's pretty damn durable stuff if it's applied right. And that's the key. I seriously doubt keltec out in the time to do it well.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Smakmauz View Post
I just found out that the black layer is part of the QPQ nitriding. It's the final step where after polishing they put it back in the salt bath for 20-30 mins, rinse at the same temp as the salt bath, and then quench again in oil. Turns the surface black.
Good to know! How does the "Black" hold up compared to other finishes like CZ Polycoat?
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:11 PM
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Good to know! How does the "Black" hold up compared to other finishes like CZ Polycoat?
Personally I can't say... I'm not familiar with polycoat. Sounds like it might be some kind of moly resin or something? I can't imagine it's a polyurethane like the name would suggest.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:48 PM
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What many call or ask about guns finish is not a finish but a "metal treatment and no Glocks or any guns made in USA ever had Tenifer treatment since outlawed here due to containing Cyanide, Glock used Melonite on USA made guns but stopped using it in 2010 and now use a cheap metal treatment followed by a cheap finish and as of 2010 Glock's have tons of complaints about finishes scraping/flaking and wearing off very quickly, so they now offer a Optional finish, they are actually now the worst finish of all major guns!

Fortunately my early Glock. Walther etc.. have Tenifer and were made in Austria/Germany.

Tenifer/Melonite/Arcor/Nitride are a "Metal Treatment" and not a finish all of thes treatments will impregnate the metal for a few thousand millimeters and thus offer great rust protection, however any gun thus treated Can Not be touched up with Gun Blue, since it wont penetrate the metal!

CZ uses Polycoat over a Arcor/Melonite finish, Polycoat is an electrostatically applied pieces of Polymer which then are baked on and currently is a great finish but somewhat dull.

The best way to reduce wear on any gun finish is use a good Leather holster and never Kydex.

The best gun finishes are as follows!

1) Chrome, but looks pimped so get blackened Chrome.
2) Nickel, hardly used anymore but can flake/chip over time.
3)Stainless Steel, actually not a finish since its in metal, but usually a Inox (great) finish is then applied and can be buffed for scuffs/scrapes.
4) Park.
5) Good Blue.
6) Polycoat types.

Lately many major gun makers offer Cerakote (which I will never buy or have put on a gun, some like it since it is a sprayed on finish then cured and can be used on plastics also like gun stocks/ grips but will wear/flake easy and look like ****, cant be touched up but entire gun needs to be refinished.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:15 AM
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Tenifer/Melonite/Arcor/Nitride are a "Metal Treatment"

Why? Why? Why?

There's a TON of these threads about the chemicals used.

Who really cares?

People are now buying guns that are called battle worn so which do you want? A pretty gun or an ugly gun?

If its a queen safe then it really doesn't matter what treatment is used. LOL

Rant Over.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:50 AM
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Tenifer/Melonite/Arcor/Nitride are a "Metal Treatment"

Why? Why? Why?

There's a TON of these threads about the chemicals used.

Who really cares?

People are now buying guns that are called battle worn so which do you want? A pretty gun or an ugly gun?

If its a queen safe then it really doesn't matter what treatment is used. LOL

Rant Over.


Where, Where, Where??????????????????????????????

Most people want a top notch finish that holds up, not some cheap 1 which flakes/rubs off as many now do, especially Glocks!
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:53 AM
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In Ur case just keep buying 2nds, Blems and display models! Any gun finish will wear and scratch but I want to be the 1 causing it, just like a new car U may buy a dented, keyed 1 but most don't!
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:03 AM
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I buy new but I don't freak out over a scratch but that's just me. If I see a good price on a blem I'll buy it. lol
If your Glock has issues and you can prove it's the treatment process they'll redo it for you. If they say you caused it I think they charge $60.00. Good price to get it fixed and better than Cerakote.
Everyone I know with Cerakoted guns complain about it peeling/flaking off.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:20 AM
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Not sure where you got your info on glock finishes but all 5 of my gen 4 glocks finishes are holding up just like any other QPQ nitride process gun. The black oxide will wear off in some spots using kydex holsters and carried daily. But I kinda like the character it imparts.

Also you're OPINION of best gun finishes is a little subjective considering you don't give any parameters as to what you believe go into making the "best gun finish"

Maybe you should start a new thread on that one
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:36 AM
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Just found out on the FDE the Cerakote finish is applied over the Armornite treatment!
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smakmauz View Post
Not sure where you got your info on glock finishes but all 5 of my gen 4 glocks finishes are holding up just like any other QPQ nitride process gun. The black oxide will wear off in some spots using kydex holsters and carried daily. But I kinda like the character it imparts.

Also you're OPINION of best gun finishes is a little subjective considering you don't give any parameters as to what you believe go into making the "best gun finish"

Maybe you should start a new thread on that one

Go to Goggle and put in --- Glock gen 4 finish problems

then be ready to spent days reading about the issues!

I have a Gen 1 (called a Gen 2.5) made in Austria in the very early 1990's and it stays and gets carried in a IWB horse-hide holster for about 23 yrs. daily and finish is 99.9%!

On the list of Finishes that is for standard guns as sold and does not include "Custom Finishes"!

Last edited by akdude; 08-17-2017 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:19 AM
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That's weird... I've never heard of a gen 1 that's actually a gen 2.5

Gen 1- 1st generation grip texture, no finger grooves, no rail
Gen 2- 2nd generation (RTF1) grip texture, no finger grooves, no rail
Gen 3- 2nd generation (RTF1)grip texture, finger grooves, rail
Gen 3 RTF2- RTF2 grip texture version of a normal gen 3. Some had special cocking serrations that looked like fish gills
Gen 4- RTF3 grip texture, finger grooves (except M variants), rail.

Those are the generations I know about....
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:52 AM
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I had left out 2 Magic numbers talking about mine bought in the early 1990's which was a Gen 1 Glock Model "27" which is called a Gen 2.5 by Glock and all of its "Minions" since it does not have Texture in the finger Grooves.

So my Gen. 1 is always called a Gen 2.5 since it has smooth finger grooves.

Google -- Glock 2.5 -- and U will know all about it!
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE!
Gen 1- 1st generation grip texture, no finger grooves, no rail.
Gen 2- 2nd generation (RTF1) grip texture, no finger grooves, no rail.
QUOTE!

Not quite correct! Since the Gen 1 model 27 has finger grooves!

My Gen 1 Model 27 (called a Gen 2.5) has "Finger Grooves" no texture in grooves and no Rail!

Last edited by akdude; 08-17-2017 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 08-17-2017, 03:21 AM
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gen 2.5 glocks

Click on above link scroll 1/2 way down page and U will see pictures of a Gen 1 Model 27 AKA Gen 2.5 and a Gen 3 as well as a Gen 4, the Gen 1 Model 27 AKA Model 27 Gen 2.5 are quite rare made in Austria with "Tenifer" and only and few were made and I have 1!


NOOOOH its not for Sale!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrangler5 View Post
.......Manufacturers design and specify their magazines to a particular capacity for engineering reasons .........If squeezing an extra round into a magazine crushes the spring beyond its elastic limit it may do damage that either shortens its useful life or adversely affects its reliability. Or both.

So there usually are reasons for NOT loading a magazine beyond its stated capacity.
Good post,with valid points (that seem to have been lost on the OP).
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:55 AM
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Good post,with valid points (that seem to have been lost on the OP).
I see Ure point but as I said earlier out of all my pistols which hold X amt. of rounds the last 1 is almost impossible to get in mag!

The only 2 guns I have where there is room left when loaded to stated amt. of rds. are the VP9 and the MP 2.0 !

So if there were or could be an issue with mags/springs then why is there never an issue with all these +2 mag extensions, which do not use a different spring but simply more ammo in a new base with the same spring!

Keeping a mag loaded for yrs. does not hurt springs but what will over time weaken springs is the act of loading/unloading not being compressed.

I have several different mags AR/AK ec that have been stored loaded for 30 yrs. and with "NO" issues, except on some AR early mags the Aluminum feed-lips can bend outwards!
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:31 PM
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The only 2 guns I have where there is room left when loaded to stated amt. of rds. are the VP9 and the MP 2.0 !
Which begs the question: how do you know there's extra space in magazine ? The only way to know, is if you're trying to cram an extra round in, and then find out it went.
The guy's point was that there's no real practical upside here, while there's a definite possibility of damage.


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.....Keeping a mag loaded for yrs. does not hurt springs but what will over time weaken springs is the act of loading/unloading not being compressed.
This is widely known, and mentioned here already, so I'm not sure what your point is.


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Originally Posted by akdude View Post
...I have several different mags AR/AK ec that have been stored loaded for 30 yrs. and with "NO" issues, except on some AR early mags the Aluminum feed-lips can bend outwards!
Seriously? You have AK and AR mags that have been loaded for 3 decades? What for,exactly?
But again, the discussion here isn't about the duration of compression, but about over-compression. They're not the same thing.


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So if there were or could be an issue with mags/springs then why is there never an issue with all these +2 mag extensions, which do not use a different spring but simply more ammo in a new base with the same spring!
This sounds like you're being argumentative, and still not getting the point that you just said you did get.
Most +2 extensions I've seen ad length and inner space to the magazine body, giving the spring a little extra "breathing room", so to speak. They don't simply magically allow you to cram extra rounds in, and over-compress the spring.
There's no free lunch.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:33 PM
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The Mecgar +2 base mag extensions have been around for almost 30 yrs. with no issues, but they cost $10. for 1 base and so Beretta has been putting the Mecgar +2 bases on their mags for yrs. if 1 wants more rounds than standard and charging a few bucks more,thus saving the Customer a bunch of $.

On some Beretta mags like the PX4 & APX where the Mecgar +2 bases don't fit, Beretta makes their own proprietary bases for these.

CZ makes their own +2 bases and also does add them to their mags if 1 wants more rounds, Walther does the same and makes their own bases, the Rex Zero also uses the Mecgar +2 bases if U buy their Tactical version and all of the companies use the regular mag spring but simply add the +2 bases.

If U want to add more than 3 rounds to a mag than U need to get a longer/stronger spring, which is common knowledge and all these companies which make mag base extension ranging from +2 to +5 will tell U this!

Seems not many knowledgeable folks on this forum, but a bunch of "Newbies" so this is a learning experience for them!

Now some folks also in order to get 1 or 2 more rounds in a mag will cut off a coil or 2 on the spring, popular on th Glocks model 42/43 and they claim works just fine, however I would not recommend this.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:47 PM
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QUOTE!
Which begs the question: how do you know there's extra space in magazine ? The only way to know, is if you're trying to cram an extra round in, and then find out it went.
The guy's point was that there's no real practical upside here, while there's a definite possibility of damage.
QUOTE!

As I said before in this Thread if U own a mag and it states it holds X amount of rounds the last 1 is impossible to get in (glocks are bad about this) and once loaded to stated capacity then U simply cant push the rounds down, so no room left except on the VP9 & MP 2.0 where after loading the listed amt. of ammo 15 in VP9 and 17 in the MP 2.0 then U can easily push down the last round almost 1"!

Which shows U that there is room for 1 more round!
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  #31  
Old 08-17-2017, 03:08 PM
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...Which shows U that there is room for 1 more round!
You're still somehow missing the point. It's irrelevant if there's "room" for one more round. By cramming more ammo in there, you're compressing the spring beyond the manufacturer's limit. Why is this so important to you, especially on what is already a high capacity magazine?
That's the kinda stuff we expect from newbs and younger shooters, envisioning a looming Red Dawn-esque invasion or zombie apocalypse.


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Seems not many knowledgeable folks on this forum, but a bunch of "Newbies" so this is a learning experience for them!
Yes, do keep these sage pearls of wisdom flowing, this forum so filled with un-knowledgeable people can use all the help we can get !!

Last edited by Mark IV; 08-17-2017 at 03:11 PM.
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  #32  
Old 08-17-2017, 03:14 PM
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A mag spring being compressed wont weaken it but what does weaken it over time is constant loading/unloading!
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:43 PM
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A mag spring being compressed wont weaken it but what does weaken it over time is constant loading/unloading!
Good lord !!! I know that !! I already stated that this was widely known, and has already been referenced here by others!! What we're talking about here is compressing the spring BEYOND it's recommended limts. OK ????
Are you just being obtuse, or do you have issues with reading comprehension ?
here you go, give it another try. This is from way back in post #3:

".....springs do not wear out by being compressed (they wear out by being cycled, so leave mags loaded and save a decompress/compress cycle) UNLESS the springs are moved beyond their material's elastic limit.
If squeezing an extra round into a magazine crushes the spring beyond its elastic limit it may do damage that either shortens its useful life or adversely affects its reliability. Or both.
So there usually are reasons for NOT loading a magazine beyond its stated capacity...."

Last edited by Mark IV; 08-17-2017 at 04:46 PM.
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2017, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE!
Gen 1- 1st generation grip texture, no finger grooves, no rail.
Gen 2- 2nd generation (RTF1) grip texture, no finger grooves, no rail.
QUOTE!

Not quite correct! Since the Gen 1 model 27 has finger grooves!

My Gen 1 Model 27 (called a Gen 2.5) has "Finger Grooves" no texture in grooves and no Rail!
well thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it but your glock isn't a gen 1. The generation doesn't refer to the model specifically but to the entire line up. just because they didn't have the glock 27 until the line was in its second generation doesn't mean its a gen 1 glock. its a late addition to the second generation of their line up...hence the gen 2.5 moniker. thats why everyone on the fan boy forums calls them gen 2.5 and not gen 1. you can call it whatever you want to make yourself feel fancy but that doesn't really track with anything I've ever heard.

and yes I know the subcompacts have never had rails and I should have put that in my previous comment but I assumed you were talking about one of the larger guns because you said it was a gen 1 and they didn't make the subs in gen 1.

besides, I think your're on the wrong forum board to be bragging about odd ball glocks...don't think anyone cares here
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:29 PM
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Seems not many knowledgeable folks on this forum, but a bunch of "Newbies" so this is a learning experience for them!
This should be interesting to watch.

Last edited by gc70; 08-17-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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