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Old 08-20-2017, 09:36 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Question M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?

I just finished watching this video below & he talks about the barrel he got from Apex Tactical & how it fixes accuracy issues in the M2.0 M&P do to the dwell time ect, ect....... Isn't this the same issue the 1st gen M&Ps had early on?

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Old 08-20-2017, 10:26 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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A couple of the changes done to the 2.0 was to lengthen the steel sub-chassis in the frame, and lengthening the front frame rail tabs.

Both of these changes, according to someone from the factory, delays unlocking of the barrel and slide. Increases the dwell (lock) time, compared to the original model. The bullet is now significantly farther from the muzzle before the barrel and slide unlock. These changes were also said to enhance accuracy.

Don't know anything about the APEX barrel. As an armorer, I try to stay within the factory specs, and don't get too involved in competition mods.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:28 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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A couple of the changes done to the 2.0 was to lengthen the steel sub-chassis in the frame, and lengthening the front frame rail tabs.

Both of these changes, according to someone from the factory, delays unlocking of the barrel and slide. Increases the dwell (lock) time, compared to the original model. The bullet is now significantly farther from the muzzle before the barrel and slide unlock. These changes were also said to enhance accuracy.

Don't know anything about the APEX barrel. As an armorer, I try to stay within the factory specs, and don't get too involved in competition mods.

Thanks, much appreciated!
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Old 08-20-2017, 11:39 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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I think Apex solves a lot of problems that you could learn your way around. No amount of "upgrades" will make you a better shooter. You'll just miss a little less. Learn to shoot what you have.
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:21 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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I think Apex solves a lot of problems that you could learn your way around. No amount of "upgrades" will make you a better shooter. You'll just miss a little less. Learn to shoot what you have.
Yep i get all of that, but no amount of practice is going to make you a better shooter IF what hes saying about barrel lockup/dwell time is true.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:50 AM
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Every gun made is a total piece of junk according to somebody on the internet.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:01 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Every gun made is a total piece of junk according to somebody on the internet.
And most new guns shoot low and left
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:17 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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No amount of "upgrades" will make you a better shooter.
This is a common platitude I take issue with. One can train to a very high skill level and with an inaccurate gun still be inadequate. When the equipment is all squared away, then it is all on the shooter.

90% of inaccuracy problems ARE shooter based, not gun based. However, any shooter can progress better and faster with better equipment.

In this case, I have not heard of "accuracy issues" with the new M&P2. Quite the opposite. With a stiffer frame, tighter barrel lock up and longer dwell time compared to the original model, accuracy is improved to a level that exceeds most shooters' abilities.

S&W addressed this issue and has it resolved for a mass manufactured pistol.

Now, can this mass manufactured pistol be improved upon to some degree, probably small, by expensive customized aftermarket parts custom fitted to the gun? Yup. So can almost any off-the-shelf gun, but often the expense is not worth the results if a shooter is just going to stay at an average level.

I have chosen aftermarket parts and expenses and appreciate my guns more. I can afford it and still have $$ left over for training and ammo. Yet I still cannot put a consistent 5-shot cloverleaf on a paper target at 10 yards offhand. My gun will do it from a rest, so I know whom to blame for "innaccuracy".

The best equipment helps you progress to your highest level, but if you are trading $$ on equipment for real progress in training and you don't shoot very well yet, you probably have your priorities backwards.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:42 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
This is a common platitude I take issue with. One can train to a very high skill level and with an inaccurate gun still be inadequate. When the equipment is all squared away, then it is all on the shooter.

90% of inaccuracy problems ARE shooter based, not gun based. However, any shooter can progress better and faster with better equipment.

In this case, I have not heard of "accuracy issues" with the new M&P2. Quite the opposite. With a stiffer frame, tighter barrel lock up and longer dwell time compared to the original model, accuracy is improved to a level that exceeds most shooters' abilities.

S&W addressed this issue and has it resolved for a mass manufactured pistol.

Now, can this mass manufactured pistol be improved upon to some degree, probably small, by expensive customized aftermarket parts custom fitted to the gun? Yup. So can almost any off-the-shelf gun, but often the expense is not worth the results if a shooter is just going to stay at an average level.

I have chosen aftermarket parts and expenses and appreciate my guns more. I can afford it and still have $$ left over for training and ammo. Yet I still cannot put a consistent 5-shot cloverleaf on a paper target at 10 yards offhand. My gun will do it from a rest, so I know whom to blame for "innaccuracy".

The best equipment helps you progress to your highest level, but if you are trading $$ on equipment for real progress in training and you don't shoot very well yet, you probably have your priorities backwards.

Great post, i agree 100%.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:44 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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FWIW, having listened to different folks from the factory at 5 different M&P pistol armorer classes/recerts, and talking to them about various things between attending the classes, it was primarily some of the 9mm models that were sometimes involved in reports of inconsistent accuracy (meaning from one gun to the next).

The .40/.45 guns were always observed to be quite accurate. The M&P was designed and built around the .40, and I remember the release of the calibers being the .40, then the 9, followed by the .357 and the .45, last. (The M&P 45 had a lot of R&D testing, as it was initially planned as a submission for the suspended/canceled USSOCOM testing in '05, which is why it had an extractor roll pin and a manual safety.)

I handled and fired a fair representative sampling of different "original" M&P 9's, 9c's, VTAC & Pro models which were tack drivers.

I never handled/fired a M&P 357, and the caliber just wasn't in great enough demand to remain in normal production, so I have no immediate familiarity with that caliber in the M&P line.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:48 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt
...Both of these changes, according to someone from the factory, delays unlocking of the barrel and slide. Increases the dwell (lock) time, compared to the original model. The bullet is now significantly farther from the muzzle before the barrel and slide unlock. These changes were also said to enhance accuracy.
If the bullet is now significantly farther from the muzzle before the barrel and slide unlock, that means it's got farther to go AS they unlock.... That's not going to improve accuracy! Do you think they meant it was farther from the CHAMBER (rather than MUZZLE)? Or did they mean CLOSER to the Muzzle?

Everything I've read and have explored on this subject -- including some lengthy and heavy discussions on other forums with folks who know a lot more than I do -- says that with a Browning short-recoil, locked-breech (BSRLB) semi-auto, additional dwell time isn't likely to matter, as the bullet will be gone before the slide has moved as much 1/10th of an inch or less The slide has to move farther than that to begun unlocking (and tilting)...

Dwell time can affect gun performance where a barrel link is the wrong length (in a 1911), when the lugs in the slide (or on the barrel) are rounded such that the barrel is forced to slip down too early, where the locking blocks or frame abutments are damaged, or where the barrel lug itself isn't right -- but I'm not sure it will matter in guns that work as intended/designed.

If the ammo is the same and the barrel length is the same length, the bullet should be leaving the barrel after the same amount of slide movement, and the bullet will typically be gone before the gun has started to or just as the barrel begins to UNLOCK from the slide Does the M&P 1.0 design allow the slide and barrel to unlock BEFORE the bullet has left the barrel? If so, some extra dwell time might help. I'm not sure that it does unlock like that, however. And even if it does, longer dwell time won't necessarily make the gun MORE accurate, if it was consistently unlocking in the M&P 1.0 version.

More dwell time MIGHT affect felt recoil and how recoil forces are passed to the frame (via the recoil springs pressure against the frame). But we must keep in mind that most of the recoil experienced and passed to the frame occurs AFTER the bullet is gone. I WONDER IF There might be OTHER reasons for these change that have little to do with accuracy?

We should note, too, that not all CS personnel really know what they're talking about on all topics. I've heard some real strange explanations coming from CS personnel over the years. In this case one of them may be giving us a good explanation, and I'm just missing some key technical point that lets me understand what is really happening. (If so, it won't be the first time that's happened.)
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:12 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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"Farther from the muzzle" as in beyond the end of the barrel.

The slide should not move nor the barrel unlock until after the bullet leaves the barrel. You did say that. That's the design.

Apex claims that some M&P 1.0's had slide movement and barrel unlocking before the bullet left the barrel. If this was true, I doubt it was common to all guns as not all were inaccurate. However, it may have been a problem with some guns because of (stacking?) loose tolerances in mass manufacturing. For the barrel to start tilting to unlock before the bullet leaves the barrel is a very, very unusual and unlikely situation. High speed photography shows that the bullet leaves the barrel before the slide moves and the barrel unlocks, if the locking system functions as intended.
Slomo Bullet Exiting Barrel - Mythbusters - YouTube

Tighter tolerances and minor changes in barrel geometry can delay barrel unlocking, but not slide movement (assuming use of the same recoil spring). This is what Apex claims to have done.

The fellow in the original video demonstrates this with the OEM barrel starting to unlock almost as soon as the slide moves back. However, only high speed photography could really confirm if there is barrel unlocking movement before the bullet leaves the barrel. This timing is in milliseconds, and manually demonstrating an event that takes milliseconds is probably not very accurate or scientific.

The Apex barrel appears to unlock only after the slide has moved some distance, thus a longer time after the bullet has left the muzzle. Apex calls this dwell time, although that is a term more correctly applied to gas systems rather than recoil operated systems.

Apex improved accuracy is due more to having a better fitted barrel than increased unlocking time, I believe.

That increased time would significantly improve accuracy in a malfunctioning gun with barrel movement before the bullet exits the barrel. I do not believe this has been a common occurrence or a real "design flaw" other than making tolerances a bit too loose for a small number of guns. Other problems, such as twist rate and barrel quality and dimensions caused more inaccuracy than "dwell" time I suspect. Those were corrected in the 1.0's some time ago and have been further addressed in the 2.0 supposedly.

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Old 08-22-2017, 01:04 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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This is a common platitude I take issue with. One can train to a very high skill level and with an inaccurate gun still be inadequate. When the equipment is all squared away, then it is all on the shooter.
THANK YOU!!! I'm getting sick of this cr@p as well. I shoot M&P's well in stock form but then I apex them and go from good to great. I think most people who say this kind of stuff don't have any experience with the products and either can't afford it and are pissy that others can, or are so set in their ways they see anything new as threatening. Its the same cr@p when someone will post a question about some new piece of gear and there's always that one post from the idiot who says "Don't bother, go spend your money on ammo and training" as if thats some kind of Obi-wan Kenobi jedi wisdom. Its not. Get over yourself. If some little accessory or do-dad is gonna make someone feel better about their shooting experience or make them more likely to train some more or have more pride in their gun... I say more power to em!!! and shame on anyone who would belittle that or try to talk down to them for wanting something different.

Sorry ScaryWoody, thats not all directed at you. Pent up aggression...need to go shooting

To the OP, the 2.0's were designed to improve the accuracy over the older ones a bit so the difference that you would see out of the APEX barrel wouldn't be as dramatic with the 2.0's as with the 1.0's in theory. The dwell time is not really a problem per-say but the issue that the APEX barrels seem to address in the 1.0's is that they stay tighter and flatter for a few milliseconds longer before it starts to tilt back giving the bullet a chance to fully exit before its thrown off trajectory. Milliseconds may not sound like much but compare to the cycle of the bullet firing the APEX barrel had something like 100 times more dwell time then the stock barrel. more than you need but....ya know. They addressed that with the 2.0 but its still not what you would call a match grade barrel. The APEX is still going to be an upgrade to the 2.0 because its got a much tighter lock up so shot to shot accuracy is going to be much better. The thing to remember with ultra tight fitting parts and super precision guns is that they are usually not as reliable. they'll drive tacks but a lot of the time are more picky about ammunition. I don't know that I would put an APEX barrel in a defense gun, in a target gun, HELL YEAH!

I haven't done any accuracy tests between my 1.0's and 2.0's yet so I can't say how much they've improved but both are more than accurate enough for defense purposes.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:26 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Originally Posted by CB3 View Post
"Farther from the muzzle" as in beyond the end of the barrel.

The slide should not move nor the barrel unlock until after the bullet leaves the barrel. You did say that. That's the design.

Apex claims that some M&P 1.0's had slide movement and barrel unlocking before the bullet left the barrel. If this was true, I doubt it was common to all guns as not all were inaccurate. However, it may have been a problem with some guns because of (stacking?) loose tolerances in mass manufacturing. For the barrel to start tilting to unlock before the bullet leaves the barrel is a very, very unusual and unlikely situation. High speed photography shows that the bullet leaves the barrel before the slide moves and the barrel unlocks, if the locking system functions as intended.
Slomo Bullet Exiting Barrel - Mythbusters - YouTube

Tighter tolerances and minor changes in barrel geometry can delay barrel unlocking, but not slide movement (assuming use of the same recoil spring). This is what Apex claims to have done.

The fellow in the original video demonstrates this with the OEM barrel starting to unlock almost as soon as the slide moves back. However, only high speed photography could really confirm if there is barrel unlocking movement before the bullet leaves the barrel. This timing is in milliseconds, and manually demonstrating an event that takes milliseconds is probably not very accurate or scientific.

The Apex barrel appears to unlock only after the slide has moved some distance, thus a longer time after the bullet has left the muzzle. Apex calls this dwell time, although that is a term more correctly applied to gas systems rather than recoil operated systems.

Apex improved accuracy is due more to having a better fitted barrel than increased unlocking time, I believe.

That increased time would significantly improve accuracy in a malfunctioning gun with barrel movement before the bullet exits the barrel. I do not believe this has been a common occurrence or a real "design flaw" other than making tolerances a bit too loose for a small number of guns. Other problems, such as twist rate and barrel quality and dimensions caused more inaccuracy than "dwell" time I suspect. Those were corrected in the 1.0's some time ago and have been further addressed in the 2.0 supposedly.
Sorry, I just reallized that I pretty much just echoed everything you just said

I think you are right on the money. I don't think dwell time is really the right term either. I think maybe the 1.0's unlocking so early maybe was only affecting accuracy by a tiny bit because the bullet was likey already just out of the muzzle by that time. could be some of the gas that was following the bullet was still flowing out when the barrel moves and kind of blows the bullet off trajectory a tiny bit. Dunno...but traditionally a good sample of the 9mm 1.0's were, at best, a 3 in group @25yd gun and some of the samples I've seen with the semi-fit APEX barrels are like 1-1 1/2 inch so that seems to be a pretty good improvement to me. Like you, I think its more to do with being a much tighter fit barrel.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:08 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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The fellow with whom I spoke in one of the armorer recerts mentioned that in the original M&P's the slide & barrel started to unlock when the bullet was typically only up to several inches out of the muzzle, but in the 2.0 the bullet is significantly further. He offered some numbers, but I don't think I wrote them down, as that sort of trivia is unnecessary from an armorer's perspective, albeit sometimes interesting trivia for owners and enthusiasts.

I'd also not be surprised to discover that sometimes a particular set of tolerances might produce some unexpected issues that are better addressed with some different parts, like a new barrel, perhaps. Or some revised specs/tolerances (new twist rate?). Remember reading about S&W replacing barrels now and again when guns were sent back for complaints about horrible accuracy?

Also, remember that delayed unlocking was something the engineers introduced in the metal-framed TSW's, claiming that it also helped reduce felt recoil compared to the standard 3rd gen's.

Lots of folks like to talk about "match-grade accuracy". The M&P, like the Glock and most other standard plastic pistols, was designed as a service-grade gun.

Longer, heavier slides and slightly lighter triggers in some of the "Practical", "Pro series", etc models may make guns easier to run in some competition venues, but it's not like they advertise them to be able to consistently produce groups of less than 2" at 50 meters.

There are probably always going to be compromises involved in deciding whether someone wants a "combat/service" pistol capable of excellent reliability, especially under adverse, extended conditions ... or a comp gun built to tolerances that are much, much tighter, capable of match-grade accuracy, but maybe not able to always run so well in less-than-optimal conditions.

I'll offer that today's engineers and engineering, with CAD and advanced CNC capabilities, are offering us some phenomenal advances over the state-of-the-art for standard/service grade pistols I was owning and using through the 70's and 80's.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:40 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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To the OP, the 2.0's were designed to improve the accuracy over the older ones a bit so the difference that you would see out of the APEX barrel wouldn't be as dramatic with the 2.0's as with the 1.0's in theory. The dwell time is not really a problem per-say but the issue that the APEX barrels seem to address in the 1.0's is that they stay tighter and flatter for a few milliseconds longer before it starts to tilt back giving the bullet a chance to fully exit before its thrown off trajectory. Milliseconds may not sound like much but compare to the cycle of the bullet firing the APEX barrel had something like 100 times more dwell time then the stock barrel. more than you need but....ya know. They addressed that with the 2.0 but its still not what you would call a match grade barrel. The APEX is still going to be an upgrade to the 2.0 because its got a much tighter lock up so shot to shot accuracy is going to be much better. The thing to remember with ultra tight fitting parts and super precision guns is that they are usually not as reliable. they'll drive tacks but a lot of the time are more picky about ammunition. I don't know that I would put an APEX barrel in a defense gun, in a target gun, HELL YEAH!

I haven't done any accuracy tests between my 1.0's and 2.0's yet so I can't say how much they've improved but both are more than accurate enough for defense purposes.

Thanks for the replies everyone!
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:43 AM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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I'll offer that today's engineers and engineering, with CAD and advanced CNC capabilities, are offering us some phenomenal advances over the state-of-the-art for standard/service grade pistols I was owning and using through the 70's and 80's.


This i would agree with 100%
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:12 AM
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Accuracy issues are fixed in the m2.0.
I HAVE RANSOM REST RESULTS TO PROVE IT.
The guys gun in the video looks ridiculous it's no wonder he has issues with all that garb on there.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:08 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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CB3 is blessed with common sense, experience and communication skills.
I have shot my Shield and Pro9 enough to know they are very accurate and the variable that needs the work is my technique.
I know that my Pro9 5in with the Apex FSS is much easier to shoot than my Shield, but I don't doubt Jerry Miculek could do things with the Shield that I can't do with the Pro9.
Apexing my guns doesn't mean I am hiding deficits in my technique. Lance Armstrong wasn't riding a Huffy and Dale Earnhardt didn't race a Chevy off the showroom floor.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:13 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Originally Posted by bsmiley View Post
CB3 is blessed with common sense, experience and communication skills.
I have shot my Shield and Pro9 enough to know they are very accurate and the variable that needs the work is my technique.
I know that my Pro9 5in with the Apex FSS is much easier to shoot than my Shield, but I don't doubt Jerry Miculek could do things with the Shield that I can't do with the Pro9.
Apexing my guns doesn't mean I am hiding deficits in my technique. Lance Armstrong wasn't riding a Huffy and Dale Earnhardt didn't race a Chevy off the showroom floor.
Well said!
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:19 PM
Walt Sherrill Walt Sherrill is offline
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Originally Posted by Fastbolt
The fellow with whom I spoke in one of the armorer recerts mentioned that in the original M&P's the slide & barrel started to unlock when the bullet was typically only up to several inches out of the muzzle, but in the 2.0 the bullet is significantly further. He offered some numbers, but I don't think I wrote them down, as that sort of trivia is unnecessary from an armorer's perspective, albeit sometimes interesting trivia for owners and enthusiasts.
That explanation (his, not yours) sounds like the work of a BS-artist hard at work! -- as whether barrel unlocks when the bullet is just a few inches out of the barrel, or when it's traveled farther, if the bullet is gone BEFORE the barrel unlocks, barrel movement (unlocking) should have no effect on accuracy. The bullet is gone at that point.

If the 1.0 barrel was starting to unlock just as the bullet was leaving the barrel, even THAT ought not affect accuracy IF it acted in the same manner with each shot! Consistent behavior (with the gun locking up with each shot, or -- if it's unlocking early -- consistently doing so) is what leads to better accuracy.

As others have noted, something other than an increased lock time must be responsible for better performance.

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Old 08-22-2017, 05:24 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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That explanation (his, not yours) sounds like the work of a BS-artist hard at work! -- ...
Or, it might be that the over-simplified explanation he was given leaves out some salient info that would have some relevance to the discussion.

I remember when a former Glock employee (sales rep) was quite certain that Tenifer was a "coating". When he was explaining something about a similar process (working for another gun company), i asked for some specific details. He said he'd have to call engineering to ask, and would get back to me. He did, and clarified that he'd apparently not had all of the correct information (from when he'd been working for Glock), and was able to now provide some more detailed info he'd just gotten from engineering. It was obviously different than what he'd first said, and apparently what he'd been telling and teaching when working for Glock. He was a little chagrined, and somewhat annoyed with what he'd first been given to tell people.

Sometimes people are told things that could be more precise or better explained to them, and sometimes they may not understand all of what they're told (even if they think they do).

After so many years of talking with folks at some of the different gun companies as an armorer (reps, LE/CS contacts, repair technicians, armorer/training instructors and even an occasional engineer), I've adopted the cautious practice of listening to what any one of them says, but to wait and hear how the info may be repeated, or different, when heard from others within the same company.

Naturally, the higher in the food chain, corporate structure or technical (engineering) area the person may be, the more willing I may be to give weight to what they say. However, I've been told by a senior engineer that something a less experienced engineer told me wasn't quite precisely the case. Apparently (obviously) not all engineers may be privy to all the info on everything having to do with the products.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:11 PM
Randy Lee Randy Lee is offline
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Since I designed the barrel, I figure I should chime in.
So that we are on the same page, I use the classic definition of dwell time to mean: "time spent in the same position, orientation, area or stage of a process."
This means that the barrel should maintain the same lock up position relative to the slide and frame (and therefore mechanical barrel pre-tension forces) until the bullet is clear of the barrel.


I hear people refer to early unlocking all the time, but rarely do any two people define the term in the same way. As in the video, the narrator demonstrates unlocking in a fairly gross and rudimentary fashion by pulling the slide to the rear a considerable distance. To be clear, that much movement ONLY occurs after the bullet has left the barrel and chamber pressures have dropped to a safe level. The physics of the event would not allow the barrel to tilt while the bullet is pulling the barrel forward and the brass is trying to push the breech face to the rear.

What IS happening is that the barrel is becoming destabilized while the bullet is in the barrel. To bring a more common frame of reference, by destabilized I mean that the forces acting on the barrel are not the same from shot to shot. In the case of the 1.0 and to a much lesser degree in the M2.0, the slide stretches at the weakest point- near the rear of the ejection port each and every time you fire the pistol. The brass is pushing the breech face to the rear while the bullet is pulling the barrel forward as I mentioned above.

Pretty common physics equation: force forward=force rearward. This does not contribute to the destabilization because the forces cancel eachother out. What does contribute to the destabilization is the slide stretching phenomenon (which realistically is less that a couple of thousandths of an inch, if that).

As the brass pushes the breech face rearward and the slide begins to stretch, the force that the recoil spring is exerting on the slide/barrel interface (the barrel hood extension against the breech face) becomes variable and is dependent on the pressure curve of each individual cartridge. Since the barrel's only vertical support is the angled surface that contacts the round surface of the takedown lever, the change in force due to the slide stretch allows the barrel move randomly. You can test this by pulling the slide a few thousandths of an inch ( you don't need to retract the slide any more than the thickness of a business card) to the rear and seeing how much you can wiggle the muzzle end of the barrel as well as the chamber area visible at the ejection port. To test this fairly, do not apply downward force on the slide as you pull it to the rear. This reduces the vertical slide to frame clearances, and negates the validity of the test.

In many 1.0 and 2.0s, there will be detectable movement. The M2.0 slide has thicker sidewalls,which reduces the degree of slide stretch. That coupled with the other improvements greatly improves not only their accuracy, but their shootability.



There are other contributing factors, but this is what we have found to be the biggest cause of variable accuracy.

Or, I could be totally wrong.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:42 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Originally Posted by Randy Lee View Post
Since I designed the barrel, I figure I should chime in.
So that we are on the same page, I use the classic definition of dwell time to mean: "time spent in the same position, orientation, area or stage of a process."
This means that the barrel should maintain the same lock up position relative to the slide and frame (and therefore mechanical barrel pre-tension forces) until the bullet is clear of the barrel.
Thanks Randy, for the clarification! That helps a lot to understand why these are so great.

Now when are those 2.0 trigger kits coming?!
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:42 PM
Walt Sherrill Walt Sherrill is offline
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Lee
What IS happening is that the barrel is becoming destabilized while the bullet is in the barrel. To bring a more common frame of reference, by destabilized I mean that the forces acting on the barrel are not the same from shot to shot. In the case of the 1.0 and to a much lesser degree in the M2.0, the slide stretches at the weakest point- near the rear of the ejection port each and every time you fire the pistol. The brass is pushing the breech face to the rear while the bullet is pulling the barrel forward as I mentioned above.

Pretty common physics equation: force forward=force rearward. This does not contribute to the destabilization because the forces cancel eachother out. What does contribute to the destabilization is the slide stretching phenomenon (which realistically is less tha[n] a couple of thousandths of an inch, if that).
That addresses an issue that nobody has mentioned before -- that the slide itself is an integral part of the problem (due to the fact that metal will stretch and return to it's pre-stretch state if it's NOT stretched TOO far!)

Do ALL semi-auto slides demonstrate this same sort of accuracy-affecting behavior or is this a characteristic of the basic M&P 1.0 lockup design? It appears that the 2.0 version may incorporate design changes that make it less of an issue. (All that said, I've got an M&P Pro in 9mm and I've found the accuracy impressive, so I'm not criticizing M&P accuracy.)

You address PART of the question of "why" accuracy can be affected in your following comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Lee
As the brass pushes the breech face rearward and the slide begins to stretch, the force that the recoil spring is exerting on the slide/barrel interface (the barrel hood extension against the breech face) becomes variable and is dependent on the pressure curve of each individual cartridge. Since the barrel's only vertical support is the angled surface that contacts the round surface of the takedown lever, the change in force due to the slide stretch allows the barrel move randomly. You can test this by pulling the slide a few thousandths of an inch (you don't need to retract the slide any more than the thickness of a business card) to the rear and seeing how much you can wiggle the muzzle end of the barrel as well as the chamber area visible at the ejection port. To test this fairly, do not apply downward force on the slide as you pull it to the rear. This reduces the vertical slide to frame clearances, and negates the validity of the test.
That you can "test this by pulling the slide a few thousands of an inch" and wiggle the muzzle doesn't seem entirely convincing -- since the forces being applied to the barrel, slide, and recoil spring when the bullet is moving down the barrel under intense pressure would seem to make that whole assembly more rigid and less easily moved in a random manner than in your "test" example. I understand, however, that the "test" shows that the potential for movement exists. That a bullet spinning down the barrel may apply forces most of us have have never considered, and such subtle changes in the bullet loads can also affect accuracy, is also interesting.

To this non-gunsmith layman, all of this might suggest different ways to offset these "random" barrel behaviors, including barrel bushings, a different lockup design or, as you mention in passing, tighter vertical slide/frame clearances.

I appreciate, however, that when you do all of that, you've begun to build a different gun with what may be different design objectives -- maybe trying to create a target pistol and not a service pistol -- designed for a different role, different reliability objectives, and much different production costs.

Some very subtle, almost invisible M&P 2.0 changes are probably a far more realistic approach.

Thanks for your informative response -- now I've got more to think about!

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Old 08-23-2017, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Lee View Post
Since I designed the barrel, I figure I should chime in.
So that we are on the same page, I use the classic definition of dwell time to mean: "time spent in the same position, orientation, area or stage of a process."
This means that the barrel should maintain the same lock up position relative to the slide and frame (and therefore mechanical barrel pre-tension forces) until the bullet is clear of the barrel.


I hear people refer to early unlocking all the time, but rarely do any two people define the term in the same way. As in the video, the narrator demonstrates unlocking in a fairly gross and rudimentary fashion by pulling the slide to the rear a considerable distance. To be clear, that much movement ONLY occurs after the bullet has left the barrel and chamber pressures have dropped to a safe level. The physics of the event would not allow the barrel to tilt while the bullet is pulling the barrel forward and the brass is trying to push the breech face to the rear.

What IS happening is that the barrel is becoming destabilized while the bullet is in the barrel. To bring a more common frame of reference, by destabilized I mean that the forces acting on the barrel are not the same from shot to shot. In the case of the 1.0 and to a much lesser degree in the M2.0, the slide stretches at the weakest point- near the rear of the ejection port each and every time you fire the pistol. The brass is pushing the breech face to the rear while the bullet is pulling the barrel forward as I mentioned above.

Pretty common physics equation: force forward=force rearward. This does not contribute to the destabilization because the forces cancel eachother out. What does contribute to the destabilization is the slide stretching phenomenon (which realistically is less that a couple of thousandths of an inch, if that).

As the brass pushes the breech face rearward and the slide begins to stretch, the force that the recoil spring is exerting on the slide/barrel interface (the barrel hood extension against the breech face) becomes variable and is dependent on the pressure curve of each individual cartridge. Since the barrel's only vertical support is the angled surface that contacts the round surface of the takedown lever, the change in force due to the slide stretch allows the barrel move randomly. You can test this by pulling the slide a few thousandths of an inch ( you don't need to retract the slide any more than the thickness of a business card) to the rear and seeing how much you can wiggle the muzzle end of the barrel as well as the chamber area visible at the ejection port. To test this fairly, do not apply downward force on the slide as you pull it to the rear. This reduces the vertical slide to frame clearances, and negates the validity of the test.

In many 1.0 and 2.0s, there will be detectable movement. The M2.0 slide has thicker sidewalls,which reduces the degree of slide stretch. That coupled with the other improvements greatly improves not only their accuracy, but their shootability.



There are other contributing factors, but this is what we have found to be the biggest cause of variable accuracy.

Or, I could be totally wrong.

Great post, thanks for sharing!
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Old 08-23-2017, 02:58 PM
Randy Lee Randy Lee is offline
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Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill View Post
That addresses an issue that nobody has mentioned before -- that the slide itself is an integral part of the problem (due to the fact that metal will stretch and return to it's pre-stretch state if it's NOT stretched TOO far!)

Do ALL semi-auto slides demonstrate this same sort of accuracy-affecting behavior or is this a characteristic of the basic M&P 1.0 lockup design? It appears that the 2.0 version may incorporate design changes that make it less of an issue. (All that said, I've got an M&P Pro in 9mm and I've found the accuracy impressive, so I'm not criticizing M&P accuracy.)

You address PART of the question of "why" accuracy can be affected in your following comments.



That you can "test this by pulling the slide a few thousands of an inch" and wiggle the muzzle doesn't seem entirely convincing -- since the forces being applied to the barrel, slide, and recoil spring when the bullet is moving down the barrel under intense pressure would seem to make that whole assembly more rigid and less easily moved in a random manner than in your "test" example. I understand, however, that the "test" shows that the potential for movement exists. That a bullet spinning down the barrel may apply forces most of us have have never considered, and such subtle changes in the bullet loads can also affect accuracy is also interesting.

To this non-gunsmith layman, that might suggest ways to offset these "random" barrel behaviors could include barrel bushings, a different lockup design or, as you mention in passing, tighter vertical slide/frame clearances.

I appreciate, however, that when you do all of that, you've begun to build a different gun with what may be different design objectives -- maybe trying to create a target pistol and not a service pistol -- designed for a different role, different reliability objectives, and much different production costs.

Some very subtle, almost invisible M&P 2.0 changes are probably a far more realistic approach.

Thanks for your informative response -- now I've got more to think about!
Thanks for keeping me thinking too, Walt.

Before I started making parts, I was a starving pistolsmith, so I had the good fortune to work on your everyday run of the mill 1911s, Glocks, XDs, Browning HPs, Sigs etc. Most of them have more robust slides, particularly at the ejection port region where the stretching phenomenon is most likely to occur. I believe the added material reduces the effect.

The M2.0 has considerably more material on the slides, and if you look on both interior walls just in front of the extractor and the vertical wall on the side opposite, you will see a noticeable step. While this is present on the 1.0, the M2.0 has about .008-.009" more material protruding inward towards the chamber sidewalls of the barrel. This does two things:

First, it adds thickness to the areas where the stretching occurs and second it increases torque lock of the barrel to the slide as the bullet rotates its way down the barrel. This coupled with the 1:10" twist rate greatly improves accuracy potential in the 9mm.

"That you can "test this by pulling the slide a few thousands of an inch" and wiggle the muzzle doesn't seem entirely convincing -- since the forces being applied to the barrel, slide, and recoil spring when the bullet is moving down the barrel under intense pressure would seem to make that whole assembly more rigid and less easily moved in a random manner than in your "test" example."

Walt, the force being applied only helps to lock the barrel and slide along the axis of the bore. This means that the only contact point being stabilized is the top locking ledge of the barrel against the mating surface at the front of the ejection port. When the slide stretches, vertical forces acting on the barrel become variable. I believe it has a greater affect on the M&P pistol due to the way they designed the system. Other pistols like Sigs, 1911s Browings and my favorite 3rd Gen Smiths use a mechanical means to apply vertical force to bottom lug of the barrel. The M&P simply does not. Given that it is a service pistol, perhaps it isn't really a big concern for most.

Our barrel is different because we have the bottom lug of the barrel mate to the locking block- this is what provides the consistent vertical support as the slide stretches. It is not new magic or snake oil. This is the way the Sig P series TDA pistols have done it for decades, and custom built 1911s usually have the bottom lug cut so that the barrel is not only vertically supported through the dwell phase but beds the barrel's top lugs against the slide lug recesses. In all cases, for optimal accuracy the barrel must be mechanically fixed relative to the slide until the bullet leaves the bore. For the M&P, this requires the barrel to be supported by the frame locking block.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:24 PM
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Thanks Randy for taking the time to detail for us what is really going on. It's a wonderful feeling to be properly "schooled".

I love my Apex Gunsmith Fit barrel Apex put in my M&P 1.0 last spring. Thanks!
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:25 PM
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I hope that my babbling adds knowledge to this forum. There is a lot of mis-information out on the internet and quite frankly even in our industry.

CB3, I'm glad you like our barrel!
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:40 PM
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I can't speak for everyone, but I love it! I'm a technical detail nerd and I love reading about this kind of stuff.
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Old 08-23-2017, 05:36 PM
Walt Sherrill Walt Sherrill is offline
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Lee
Walt, the force being applied only helps to lock the barrel and slide along the axis of the bore. This means that the only contact point being stabilized is the top locking ledge of the barrel against the mating surface at the front of the ejection port. When the slide stretches, vertical forces acting on the barrel become variable. I believe it has a greater affect on the M&P pistol due to the way they designed the system. Other pistols like Sigs, 1911s Browings and my favorite 3rd Gen Smiths use a mechanical means to apply vertical force to bottom lug of the barrel. The M&P simply does not. Given that it is a service pistol, perhaps it isn't really a big concern for most.
I had assumed that the fired round's casing was staying TIGHTLY pressed against the chamber walls until pressure dropped (as the bullet exited the barrel). IF that was happening, it would seemingly make slide stretching a non-issue. But that may not always be the case.

I understand that with fixed-barrel semi-autos like .22s, Makarovs, etc., the casing DOES move before the pressure drops -- so it makes sense that it could also happen less dramatically in some versions of the Browning Short-Recoil Locked Breech design. Maybe only SOME BSRLB guns have non-stretchy slides, and most of us assume all do. (This is another aspect of a subtle and dynamic process that I've not seen addressed in prior discussions.)

If a little "stretch" was a characteristic of the original (1.0) design, adding extra material to the slide for the 2.0 version seems like an elegantly simple and relatively inexpensive fix.

I keep learning new things in this discussion, or find new ways to look at old things differently.

Thanks again.
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:24 AM
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Any pistol is a poor performer compared to a finely tuned rifle. Many think that their pistol should perform as a target pistol. It wasn't designed for that. Know it for what it is, a get off me gun. My needs are simple, to go boom when the trigger is pulled. Anything beyond that is bonus.

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Old 08-24-2017, 02:14 AM
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A friend of mine just took his brand new M&P 45 2.0 to the range to function test it. Using 230gr loads (didn't ask which brand/line) he checked it for basic accuracy at 7yds, cold, just to see how it would do. He said he put 25 rounds into a hole the size of almost a quarter. Not too bad.
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Old 08-24-2017, 02:37 AM
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A friend of my just took his brand new M&P 45 2.0 to the range to function test it. Using 230gr loads (didn't ask which brand/line) he checked it for basic accuracy at 7yds, cold, just to see how it would do. He said he put 25 rounds into a hole the size of almost a quarter. Not too bad.
There's a thread from just last week here where the OP posted pics of 25yd testing of his 2.0 .45 with his home made ransom rest and that thing looked like it was shooting sub 1-1/2 groups. pretty damn accurate and much improved over the 1.0's.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:02 AM
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I have a post on here where I tested 15 loads in my m2.0 45acp. Accuracy is as good as it gets . I shoot 4 , 6 round groups at 25 yards . Minimum of 4 groups to get an average. Then eliminate the first flier per group which is due to inconsistent hand racking of the first round into the chamber.
Worst groups were 1.5" average. Most were under 1 inch my pet load averages .617" These were all shot using ? X fired brass.
That's as good/better than ANY 45 I've had in the ransom besides my p227.
I've tested the gen 1 9mm they are 3-4" guns before the apex upgrades. I could go on all day but if you want astounding accuracy you won't beat the m2.0 45acp.
My ransom is not homemade.
All I tested were 185g zero's and 185 xtp's Those are all I shoot for good reason-ransom rest proven
Today or tomorrow my new edc gen 1 m&p 45c is going in the ransom.

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Old 08-24-2017, 01:12 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Originally Posted by Smakmauz View Post
There's a thread from just last week here where the OP posted pics of 25yd testing of his 2.0 .45 with his home made ransom rest and that thing looked like it was shooting sub 1-1/2 groups. pretty damn accurate and much improved over the 1.0's.
I have an early production '08 FS M&P45 in DE w/thumb safety that shoots startlingly good groups, even when it had the older striker assembly and a heavier trigger. Out to 50yds it rivaled my accurate '05 Colt XSE Govt. That was with an assortment of a couple types of duty loads and ball.

Considering the acceptable +/- 2lb trigger pull tolerance spec in the standard "1.0" line (I haven't been to a 2.0 armorer class yet), it's not surprising that some guns might be capable of surprising accuracy, for a service-grade gun, than some others. I've certainly handled my fair share of Glocks of which that could be said, and the listed allowable tolerance spec difference in trigger pull mentioned in their classes, and the newest armorer manual, has as good bit of "wiggle room".

When I have the time to get back out to our range, I plan to try a couple of the newer 2.0's, just to get some hands-on. (They aren't on the CA roster for non-peace officers, so it's not like I'll be ordering one now that I no longer have a badge, so my 9 year old M&P 45 will probably have to do. 0
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Old 08-24-2017, 03:14 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Former starving pistolsmith Randy Lee said "Or, I could be totally wrong."
Ha-ha! Talking about slides stretching and still keeps a healthy sense of humor.
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Old 08-24-2017, 04:15 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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A friend of my just took his brand new M&P 45 2.0 to the range to function test it. Using 230gr loads (didn't ask which brand/line) he checked it for basic accuracy at 7yds, cold, just to see how it would do. He said he put 25 rounds into a hole the size of almost a quarter. Not too bad.
Thanks for sharing! It appears he pulled his video down on his Youtube channel now....
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Old 08-24-2017, 04:40 PM
Randy Lee Randy Lee is offline
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In my experience, the 45 and 40 S&W caliber M&Ps have never suffered from the accuracy complaints that the 9mm gets on the internet. In fact all the 45 M&Ps I've ever tested have shot as well as some high end custom 1911s.

The question is why does the 9mm not display equivalent accuracy standards as the 40/45s given that the lock up design is the same?
From what I have been able to determine, it boils down to torque.

A general rule of thumb is that the larger the diameter of bullet, the greater the amount of torque it will apply to the barrel (surface area of the bullet and twist rate also play roles in this too). The larger torque values "torque lock" the barrels to the slide, at least moreso than the 9mm.
The factory changed from a 1:18.75" twist rate to 1:10" some years ago in the M&P 9mms. While there was a lot of speculation, the end result was that the number of complaints about accuracy dropped.

The changes implemented in the M2.0 definitely improve the accuracy in the 9mm guns we've tested.

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Old 08-24-2017, 08:57 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Lee
A general rule of thumb is that the larger the diameter of bullet, the greater the amount of torque it will apply to the barrel (surface area of the bullet and twist rate also play roles in this too). The larger torque values "torque lock" the barrels to the slide, at least moreso than the 9mm.
The factory changed from a 1:18.75" twist rate to 1:10" some years ago in the M&P 9mms. While there was a lot of speculation, the end result was that the number of complaints about accuracy dropped.
Is the slide of the .45 model thicker (reinforced) in the ejection port area than the 1.0 versions of the 9mm or .40/.357 SIG models?

This makes me wonder whether the higher pressure of the smaller caliber rounds [9mm, .40 S&W and .357 SIG] might also play a role in this, IF the cases in the chamber DO move a bit to the rear as the bullet goes down the barrel...

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Old 08-25-2017, 02:03 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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I'm not aware of any accuracy complaints with the 9mm M2.0 pistols. My 9mm M2.0 will shoot a single ragged hole consistently. Damn thing out shoots my Beretta 92 and my CZ-75. The M&P 45 has always been superb. I'd like to get the 45 M2.0 but there's nothing wrong with my M1.0.
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Old 08-25-2017, 04:16 PM
Walt Sherrill Walt Sherrill is offline
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Originally Posted by presspics
I'm not aware of any accuracy complaints with the 9mm M2.0 pistols. My 9mm M2.0 will shoot a single ragged hole consistently. Damn thing out shoots my Beretta 92 and my CZ-75. The M&P 45 has always been superb. I'd like to get the 45 M2.0 but there's nothing wrong with my M1.0.
The accuracy problem attributed to 1.0 9mm M&Ps hasn't been something that every owner has complained about -- but it's been mentioned enough to believe that at least some were affected.

Randy Lee (who did or does development work for S&W) tells us that it wasn't a problem seen in ALL M&P 1.0 9mm guns, and that the .45 version apparently never had a similar problem.

My M&P Pro (1.0) in 9mm, like your M&P in .45, is impressively accurate.
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Old 08-25-2017, 05:53 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Randy Lee is the creator of apex tactical. Did he (or you, if youre still listening) work for S&W at one point?

I always wondered if they have or had any kind of relation at all, or S&W hates Randy because his products are nicer.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:47 PM
Walt Sherrill Walt Sherrill is offline
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Randy Lee is the creator of apex tactical. Did he (or you, if youre still listening) work for S&W at one point?

I always wondered if they have or had any kind of relation at all, or S&W hates Randy because his products are nicer.

Randy, in an earlier response, says he designed the S&W M&P barrel. (I couldn't tell from his comments if that was for versions 1.0 or 2.0 -- but I also don't know whether that matters, since I don't know that the BARREL changed between versions.)

When I said he "worked/works for" it was in THAT context (based on his earlier comment), not that he was necessarily a S&W employee -- the relationship is not clear.

Maybe S&W doesn't hate Randy...
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:57 PM
Randy Lee Randy Lee is offline
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Hi guys,

To set the record straight, I have never worked for Smith and Wesson. That being said, I have many friends who work there. They know that I have a strong affinity toward their products that started with their revolvers back in the 80's.

My involvement with the M&P started with the release of our machined sear and our product line evolved as aftermarket support for those who wanted a little something more than the factory options provided.

My background is engineering, so I am obsessed with optimizing performance. That is why it took so long for me to produce our barrel- it had to pass my accuracy standards, and while most people will never need or want something that can shoot five rounds into a hole smaller than the bullet diameter I proved that it could be done. To date, I have not seen another polymer framed striker fired service pistol that has recorded a .3" five shot group at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest. But one police officer in PA has that gun as his duty pistol.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:57 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill View Post
Randy, in an earlier response, says he designed the S&W M&P barrel. (I couldn't tell from his comments if that was for versions 1.0 or 2.0 -- but I also don't know whether that matters, since I don't know that the BARREL changed between versions.)

When I said he "worked/works for" it was in THAT context (based on his earlier comment), not that he was necessarily a S&W employee -- the relationship is not clear.

Maybe S&W doesn't hate Randy...
ahh. ok. the barrel he was talking about in that context was the apex barrel that he designed and makes. The apex barrel fits both 1.0 and 2.0 and, while S&W did seem to make some adjustments to the 2.0 factory barrels, i believe they fit the 1.0's as well. although I haven't shot one like that to confirm this.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill View Post
Randy, in an earlier response, says he designed the S&W M&P barrel. (I couldn't tell from his comments if that was for versions 1.0 or 2.0 -- but I also don't know whether that matters, since I don't know that the BARREL changed between versions.)

When I said he "worked/works for" it was in THAT context (based on his earlier comment), not that he was necessarily a S&W employee -- the relationship is not clear.

Maybe S&W doesn't hate Randy...
I designed A barrel, not THE M&P barrel. I apologize if I made it sound like I was involved in the development of the M&P pistol.
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Old 08-25-2017, 09:00 PM
Randy Lee Randy Lee is offline
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And hoprfully, they don't hate me...
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Old 08-25-2017, 09:23 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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And hoprfully, they don't hate me...
I would hope its a kind of synergy. I hear a lot of people buying M&P's and shields just so they can apex them. but you never know I guess unless you ask

on another note, I think its kinda funny how "apex" has gone from being a proper noun to a verb in recent years. kinda like google
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Old 08-25-2017, 09:26 PM
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M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time? M&P M2.0 Accuracy Issues, do to dwell time?  
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Quote:
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Hi guys,

To set the record straight, I have never worked for Smith and Wesson. That being said, I have many friends who work there. They know that I have a strong affinity toward their products that started with their revolvers back in the 80's.

My involvement with the M&P started with the release of our machined sear and our product line evolved as aftermarket support for those who wanted a little something more than the factory options provided.

My background is engineering, so I am obsessed with optimizing performance. That is why it took so long for me to produce our barrel- it had to pass my accuracy standards, and while most people will never need or want something that can shoot five rounds into a hole smaller than the bullet diameter I proved that it could be done. To date, I have not seen another polymer framed striker fired service pistol that has recorded a .3" five shot group at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest. But one police officer in PA has that gun as his duty pistol.
Damn... that's some accurate sh*t. Does it have any other apex goodies in there?
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