My first exciting day at the range turned from elation to disappointment in one mag load of 9mm.

I had installed the vortex viper after receiving the correct type B screws from S&W. Put a tab of blue loctite on them installed the piece or electrical tape to prevent battery short and proceeded to align to red dot just above the front sight. All was going well until I could not lock the windage and elevation adjustments. I called vortex and was told I didn't need to worry about locking down the adjustments since the emitters in the viper and robust enough to take the vicious pounding of the slide. Believing in them I set the adjustments to the proper settings loaded 10 rounds in the mag and started shooting at bullseye rings about 5 yards away. The first 5 shots were fantastic. But by the time I finished the magazine I had most of my rounds hitting low and left. I paused and reset the adjustments back to my original settings an DEJAVUE. First 5 shots good rest low and left..

Since the viper co-witnesses very well I turn off the vortex and used the iron sights. Bad luck hit again. All my shot were going left. After drifting the right sight to the right about .04 inches I was able to get decent hits. I also mention the trigger was gritty and had a pull over 5 pounds which is okay for a self defense firearm but not a competition unit which should be between 4 and 4.5 pounds.

When I discussed the loss of alignment vortex was very apologetic and sent a prepaid return label and ask me to explain what happened. I suggested they either move the locking screws or extend out the screws so they can be tightened down by a wrench. I also suggested try the red on a gun as part of their quality control. Maybe I got a bad one. We'll see.

Paying a lot of money for a performance gun I should not have to touch either site for decent accuracy up to 25 yards.

I can't believe one tech told me not to drift the rear at all but only drift the front HUH!!!

Anyway both are on their way back to their respective manufactures for repair or replace

Sorry about the rant but when you invest over $1000 in a firearm it should perform like one.

Any other suggestions hints greatly appreciated. I don't want to add an extra upgrades until I see what these people can do to resolve these issues.

Thanks for listening.

DON'T CALL IT A PERFORMANCE SERIES IF IT DOESN'T.

PS: Like to send my hat's off to old and grumpy for helping me get my gun setup right.

So was there a gun problem? All you wrote was about the vortex...... unless I missed something. I have never seen a gun that needed sights drifted. It's typically the shooter. Different grip, size, shape, etc. There are certain guns I shoot left with but that's me and that style of gun, it's not the sights. Pretty much any thin grip gun. HiPowers, single stacks, anything with that small of a grip. This is a training problem not a gun problem.

As for the Vortex I don't know what to tell you. If I buy red dots I only stick with Trijicon, AimPoint or EOtech.

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Let somebody else shoot it . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I was shooting left and low and was blaming my PC for the problem for months. I finally had a very experienced competition shooter shoot mine and he was dead on target. He trained with me for over an hour shooting over 200 rounds and showed me the problem...me. I have an RMR on mine. Just have to keep training on trigger control.

Low left for a right handed shooter does tend to be normal till the OWNER is broke in to a new handgun After 5 shots you maybe "adjusting " your grip and not getting your finger placed properly on the trigger and maybe a different back strap will help . Next time shoot slowly and controlled for a solid rest while wearing Nytrile gloves to aid with grip control .

I installed a trijicon RM5G on my wifes CORE and its been reliable for close to 2 years in stock condition and with apex upgrades .

M&P trigger pull and smoothness is a low point and you should have noticed that with any stock m&p you handled so don't blame the handgun as you should have known that going in . So maybe a few apex parts to a full kit will smooth that up for you .

I would say get used to the gun. Maybe do a polish job on the trigger.

Thanks for all the replies. As far as shooting low and left I had my mentor who has been shooting for over 50 years handle the gun and his observations were the same as mine. Either way S&W offered to look at the problem. If they find it's my technique I'll do more training. It sounds like the consensus is the trijicon rmr as a better red site. I'll give vortex a chance to rectify the issue. If not I'll get another red dot. If you can recommend which apex kit that would be great. Thanks for all the kind assistance.

I have the Apex Trigger Kit 100-024. I used the stock trigger spring because it has a lighter pull than the springs that come in the kit.

Excellent idea. Thanks

Let me clarify some points here. I have been shooting since 2011 and have put at least 50000 rounds through many different guns. Glock 17 19 Sig 228 CZ 75 S&W and Ruger revolvers Springfield Armory Range Officers. Currently with back and arthritic issues that comes with age and spinal fusion I have pared down to lighter guns with longer sight radius. I now shoot a ruger match champion and a Kimber Aegis both in 9mm. I do my own loading and keep my loads fairly mild but effective for indoor range work. All the guns I have now utilize fixed rear sights and have never been moved from zero. I shoot both of them very accurately. The reason I chose the S&W was my eyesight is going bad and I thought the inclusion of a red dot similar to my 9mm AR would help. I am very good at staging triggers and I practice a lot a home with a laserlyte system. I can pull a trigger on any gun during dry fire practice and it never moves. I'm not perfect but when a gun shoots left but still on target plane that tells me I've got a good hold on my grip and trigger. I'll wait and see what S&W tells me after looking at the gun.

******YEP******

Is that an agreement of my statement?

I don't care if you have 40 different handguns or your mentor has 50 years shooting there is a owner brake in time to any new handgun and if your m&p is a gen 1 the trigger junk any how . The grip circumference and trigger reach all take some adjusting too . If you have not shot every knew firearm from a solid well controlled rest You don't know it its the handgun or you that the issue . With my 55 years shooting I still go thru this with any new to me firearm I buy . You have 3 different incerts with your pistiol , Might try the different ones to see if any more than 5 rounds fired changes anything with bullet placement . I do know if sights are not moving and you use good handgun control it will place rounds in the same area that pass's as a group . When your placing the first 5 rounds, well centered and the rest low left then after a brake you fire 5 more that are well centers again the shooter is at fault .

Red dots . Vortex makes good products too but they all have an occasional **** that gets out so give them a chance to proof your and then go from there . I like trijicon but even the one We use has some faults and they all have the occasional model go home for some tlc .

To clarify. Not shooting low and left just left. Gun is not dipping. Plane is level. Can't explain why it shoots left. When it comes back I'll try different back straps.

With a Small Lightweight Subcompact lik the Shield, LC9S, G43, etc, MANY times, if a right-hander is shooting left, it's due to she shooter twisting the pistol left a split second before trigger break. I've done it and I've watched others do it.
When you go shooting with a friend, rather than them spotting your target, have them watch your hands. If you have a smart phone, have them video your technique.

Like others, I've also been shooting for decades, have Springfields, Glocks, revolvers and 1911s, but any time I shoot a handgun that's new to Me (as EVERY pistol handles slightly different), I review my basics and start from scratch, as if I were brand new to shooting. I even start at 9' to check my grouping & placement (and stay there until my technique is where it needs to be), then move to 15' and repeat, 21', etc.

I also don't do any modifications until I'm totally familiar with the unmodified pistol. If you don't know what the unmodified pistol is capable of, how can you tell whether the pistol, the modification or the shooter is to blame?

As stated before if the gun comes back with no issues I'll spend more time adjusting to this new type of trigger. I've been mainly shooting my 1911 for the past year so there is quite a difference in trigger pull. Thanks for the advice.

If your used to the 1911 trigger, you would greatly benefit from the flat-face Apex trigger IMO.

Did you do the install yourself?

Yes. The first time I did it I was watching the install video and just followed it. I've done several now and its fairly easy.

If I can do it, anybody can. Not that difficult.

Thanks. Like the flat trigger. Did you go with the 4# or 5# springs.

I use the stock trigger spring as it gives a lighter pull.

We're you able to measure what the trigger pull was after the install?

I've been wanting to, but haven't bought a gauge. I believe its somewhere between 3-4lbs. Its very light and crisp. I only use it for target and steel shooting.

sorry to hijack , but does anyone know if installing just the Apex USB in the core slide will lighten the pull at all? it's so easy to do on a core slide I went ahead and ordered one (can't hurt)

I just like the style of the new trigger. The original hinged one takes a lot of getting used to being a 1911 shooter now. Flat trigger seem to be easier to get accustomed to.

Don't forget to shoot from a solid rest too .

I'm not a fan of there flat trigger and we did try one before sending it back for a curved model . Both my wifes m&p's have the curved Apex trigger kit along with a apex striker block upgrade . Some polishing of stock parts was done too for a under 5lb pull on her m&p9c and low 4lb on the CORE

This is a picture to show what is possible with an Apex FSS kit and some polishing. This was on a competition gun I built a few years back. I've since changed to an STI platform so my trigger pull is about the same (with less work )

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Minimize the variables

I shoot in an indoor range where maximum distance is 15 yards. I normally shoot free hand for the additional challenge. With my kimber aegis I would normally put together groups of 2.5 inches or better free standing at 15 yards. When the vortex viper was working my groups improved a little but could have been better with a better trigger. When I get both units back I'm going to get an Apex kit probably with the curved trigger to mimic my 1911 and keep the pull to around 4.5 pounds which is where my comfort level is. I'm hoping vortex can rectify the out of zero issue. If not I'll get a refund and look at either a rmr or a delta point.

I am surprised that the OP thinks moving a sight is unacceptable. I think it's normal. No big deal, just adjust until POI matches POA.

If you pay good money for a firearm that is supposed to be a performance gun and you pay more for that privilege I would expect that it 100% accurate when it leaves the factory. Every other firearm I've ever had never needed a sight adjustment. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I used to think like you did until I tried sighting in my wifes new model 60 pro. I have fired in competitions, spent 4 years in Iraq and Afghanistan and have over 30 years shooting under my belt and no matter what I did I was unable to get the groups closer than 2 inches right of center from a bench rest at 10 yards. Even though I consider myself a well above average marksman I had one of the range hands fire it as well with the exact same results. At 10yards all 5 rnds go in the same hole just 2 inches right of center with the windage adjusted to as far as it would go. So it is VERY possible his weapon has misaligned sights from Smith. Given Smiths recent track record with QA (parts installed BACKWARDS on new 686 for example) id give the shooter the benefit of a doubt.

Just to add to moving sights, generally different velocity ammo and bullet weight has an impact on poi. Faster shoots higher slower lower. But I have Dawson adjustable rear sights on my m&p just for that reason. I also have a core upper and I put the vortex venom on mine due to not having the rear lock down screws. I also have a viper on my 929 all the vortex dots I have are great. Oh if your shooting the same load the poi shouldn't shift.

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Ops thats faster lower slower higher.

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I hope we hear something soon. I'd like to have an explanation for this imponderable.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

No offense but expecting the first ammo you try to shoot poi/poa may have been your issue. All ammo will shoot differently in all guns. The trigger can be polished up very easily or replaced (apex). As far as the vortex, that's a whole seperate issue. I hope they resolve quickly.
Good luck