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  #1  
Old 09-12-2017, 10:49 PM
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A few years back I picked up a BNIB first generation M&P in 357 Sig, small sear plunger, no stupid white letters on the slide. Since it's a range toy, I put an Apex trigger (the $40 one) in it out of curiosity, and then changed the small plunger sear block to the newer, larger one, per Apex' recommendation.

The other evening, my brother and I were talking guns, and got out my M&Ps, the above 357 and my first gen, bendy trigger, small plunger, never failed me HD gun in 9mm. We were doing some dry firing, and noticed that although the Apex trigger has a lighter release, it also has a very mushy release, right at the end, almost like something is bending or deflecting. The stock 9mm has a heavier, but very crisp break, for tupperware at least.

Is this normal for Apex triggers? Did I maybe do something wrong during the install? Gun is 100% functional, never had a hiccup since day 1. Neither has the 9mm for that matter.

While I'm on the subject, opinions on that Apex tactical reset doodad? I noticed that both M&Ps have basically no indication of reset, it's completely smooth and silent.

Last edited by ThaDoubleJ; 09-12-2017 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:16 AM
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I think the no discernible reset triggers were changed due to customer suggestions and experience with the reset in the Shield trigger in 2013.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:37 PM
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I'd say both of mine are from around 05 or 06. I remember getting my 9mm for $399 as the XD or some other competing pistol was being released, and S&W wanted to get the M&P to market in a hurry. Had plenty of problems with it too, seems that QC wasn't so good while they were hurrying them out like that.
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:27 PM
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regarding the apex action enhancement trigger, depends on the gun and which sear is in it and how well the trigger bar is adjusted. it sounds like you have the old sear and all the old components that have since been updated.

I would really recommend you get the apex sear and look into how to adjust the trigger bar loop. basically if you adjust the trigger bar loop to a more closed position it will decrease the trigger over travel and this will make your trigger press feel less and less mushy in the back end.

Also, in regards to reset... you need to get the new trigger bar version known as the "S" trigger bar and get the new version of the slide stop lever. these two peices will make your reset much more prominent. you should be able to get them direct from smith...they may even just give them to you.

I don't have any experience with the apex RAM but I do know you have to have the proper sear block for it to work with. you have to have the block with the spot for the trigger lock in it.
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Old 09-16-2017, 11:53 AM
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I'll give S&W a holler at some point and see if they'll supply those parts. They've been a little weird lately though...
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:08 AM
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Sent an email to S&W, see what they say. Midway has the trigger and bar for 17 bones, Apex sear is 40, and there's a gunsmith fit version as well.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:55 AM
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Trigger reset on an M&P is very easy to adjust for a nice click and feel. It takes just a slight adjustment to the trigger bar. As for your mushy pull, it sounds like overtravel and that is easily adjusted by closing the loop on the trigger bar. In all honesty, I don't use any APEX parts. I cut the sears myself and adjust the trigger bars myself to get exactly what I want.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smakmauz View Post
regarding the apex action enhancement trigger, depends on the gun and which sear is in it and how well the trigger bar is adjusted. it sounds like you have the old sear and all the old components that have since been updated.

I would really recommend you get the apex sear and look into how to adjust the trigger bar loop. basically if you adjust the trigger bar loop to a more closed position it will decrease the trigger over travel and this will make your trigger press feel less and less mushy in the back end.

Also, in regards to reset... you need to get the new trigger bar version known as the "S" trigger bar and get the new version of the slide stop lever. these two peices will make your reset much more prominent. you should be able to get them direct from smith...they may even just give them to you.

I don't have any experience with the apex RAM but I do know you have to have the proper sear block for it to work with. you have to have the block with the spot for the trigger lock in it.
I have an older M&P with early Apex sear parts. Same mushy feel as you are explaining.

At one time it bothered me but I really don't feel it while shooting the gun, just feel it during dry fire. In fact I forgot all about it until you posted here.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:05 PM
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S&W got back to me. They won't sell me the parts, they're "factory install only", but for $120, they'll install a fancy sear, polish the hood and feed ramp, and make a couple tweaks to the internals. Sounds like a Midway order is about due, and I'll check back for instructions on adjusting that loop.
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smakmauz View Post
regarding the apex action enhancement trigger, depends on the gun and which sear is in it and how well the trigger bar is adjusted. it sounds like you have the old sear and all the old components that have since been updated.

I would really recommend you get the apex sear and look into how to adjust the trigger bar loop. basically if you adjust the trigger bar loop to a more closed position it will decrease the trigger over travel and this will make your trigger press feel less and less mushy in the back end.

Also, in regards to reset... you need to get the new trigger bar version known as the "S" trigger bar and get the new version of the slide stop lever. these two peices will make your reset much more prominent. you should be able to get them direct from smith...they may even just give them to you.

I don't have any experience with the apex RAM but I do know you have to have the proper sear block for it to work with. you have to have the block with the spot for the trigger lock in it.
I'm curious, how does the slide stop lever interface with the trigger that it will change the reset characteristics? It's 18 bucks at Midway, no big deal, but although I prefer the M&P 10-1 over my G33 and G20, I'm much more familiar with the Gs as I've fiddled with them more (20 is a range toy, so fiddling doesn't endanger me). Other than swap in a factory threaded barrel, my 9mm (bedside gun) M&P is bone stock.
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDoubleJ View Post
I'm curious, how does the slide stop lever interface with the trigger that it will change the reset characteristics? It's 18 bucks at Midway, no big deal, but although I prefer the M&P 10-1 over my G33 and G20, I'm much more familiar with the Gs as I've fiddled with them more (20 is a range toy, so fiddling doesn't endanger me). Other than swap in a factory threaded barrel, my 9mm (bedside gun) M&P is bone stock.
On the new slide stop, there is a little nub that sticks out on the ejection port side that basically puts pressure on the trigger bar pushing it slightly towards the sear block. When you release the trigger to reset it basically acts like a spring that just makes the trigger bar smack the sear housing. And that's what gives you the more audible and tactile click. The newly designed trigger bar is just a bit beefier than the old one to increase the mass so you feel it more on reset.

I hope that makes sense..kinda hard to explain in just words. I usually prefer pointing and grunting

G&R tactical used to be a good source for these new parts but it seems they are getting out of that business. Speed shooter supply doesn't seem to stock the newer style slide stop levers. They do usually have the trigger bars but for whatever reason they have chosen to only stock the old style stop lever. Brownells might be a good source too.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:01 PM
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Here's a link to the newest generation slide stop lever on brownells: SMITH & WESSON M&P SLIDE STOP ASSEMBLY, GEN 3 | Brownells

Here's the right trigger bar: Trigger Bar Assembly "S" : SMITH & WESSON TRIGGER BAR ASSEMBLY "S" | Brownells
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Old 10-01-2017, 12:04 AM
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Thanks Smak. Reading through the reviews on the trigger bar, people are complaining that it's an "s" instead of the newest "H" marked bar. Any idea which is which? Wonder if there's a FAQ on all this somewhere.
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Old 10-01-2017, 12:11 AM
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"S" is the newest trigger bar that's a little beefier. That's supposed to be the one that's in that link in the previous message. Sounds like they might have gotten some bad order fulfilment or mixed up inventory. Last review came in over a year ago so hopefully they've sorted it out by now. The product description specifically says "S" so I would think it's good.
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:04 AM
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Any idea what an H marked bar is? The reviewers at Brownells claim it's even newer than the S.
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:00 AM
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Damn man, I'm sorry, I got them mixed up again. It is the H bar that is the newer one. There isn't a huge difference between them I guess but none the less the newer one is the one marked "H". I had to look at my own guns again after googling it and sure enough...

That's not the first time I've done that. Brownells has the one marked H in the description as well. Here: SMITH & WESSON M&P TRIGGER BAR ASSEMBLY, "H" | Brownells
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:04 PM
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Ok, so if I've got a 7 month old sear block with the big plunger and spring and Apex poly trigger, then I get the new Gen 3 slide stop and an Apex sear, would I want to pair that with an S or H trigger bar?
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:17 AM
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You want the H bar. And this time I'm sure.
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:35 PM
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Just ordered the parts, I'll update after I get them in
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:14 PM
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Well that didn't work. The trigger bar will not stay in the sear block, when pulling the trigger, I have to smack the pistol on the right side to get the striker to release. I've driven the rear pin out and reinstalled it about 1100 times now, I have to admit defeat. Ideas? Oh, when the striker fails to release, the slide stop also fails stop the slide with an empty mag inserted, they rub on each other. Trigger working, slide stop begins to work again as well.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:46 AM
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Sounds like you need to open up the loop on the trigger bar a little. If you're able to smack it and get it to release then it sounds like your close. Take a small flat blade screwdriver and insert it between where the loop flips back onto the bar and twist it to open up the loop a little bit and see if that does the trick. Open only enough to where your sear drops and you have very little extra movement after that. If you open it too far it will give too much over travel that can throw off accuracy.

You will have some assembly and disassembly in between tries to get the right feel but you'll get there. If you have trouble with the adjustment, apex has an older video on their site about trigger loop adjustment.
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:02 AM
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The trigger bar is actually getting over on the side of the sear, far enough over that it's rubbing on the slide stop and cause it to malfunction as well. I think it's bent. I had to to stop working on it last night though as I was losing my temper with it, and I'm prone to breaking things. I'm going to pull it all apart again and compare the two bars from the top.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:14 PM
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Trigger bar was slightly bent, couple thousandths at best, I tweaked it over, and it didn't fix anything. It did turn out to be the loop, just closed a hair too much, I tweaked that, and got trigger function to 100%. The new slide stop was (is) also bent, with function at about 1% right now. I've slathered everything in oil and hopefully it just needs some break in time, I'm sure Brownells will take care of it if I need to swap it though.

Thing is, after dropping north of a hundred bucks on these parts, while the reset is shorter and more positive, the actual trigger pull and break seem no better than my similarly aged 9mm version of this pistol. The bladed Apex trigger is a big upgrade in feel and looks, but I'm not feeling $40 worth of trigger improvement from the Apex sear, and at another $40, is the look of a bladed trigger vs a hinged trigger worth it? Not sure. For the $30ish bones on the Hbar and slide stop, I ended up with a slide that won't really lock back, and some minor adjustments needing to be made just to get the gun to function again.

Fun experiment, but I'll be leaving my 9mm alone, and hoping a CORE 2.0 comes out in the near future. Or maybe H&K realizes that America doesn't want metric barrel threads and paddle mag releases.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:59 PM
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well, I'm sorry you didn't get the positive end result that many of us have with the apex stuff or the newer parts from S&W. Lots of tolerance stuff can happen with these guns from what I've read. this can greatly affect the amount of change that happen with upgrade parts. I've been lucky I think since all smiths have been pretty trouble free and have had pretty expected results when it comes to all the upgrades that I've done.

If I had an FFL I'd offer to tune it up for you and get it all dialed just right and running like snot on a brass door knob but sadly I do not.

Just a note about the Apex sear, is that the shorter reset actually comes from it's relationship to the trigger bar loop so in general that's one of the "upgrades" you get with that piece. I know it kinda seems like a lot for what it is and I myself have struggled in the past with the cost of this one piece but I have since chalked it up to a couple things: 1. Made in the U.S. part from much better material than the original. 2. milled from solid stock instead of MIM (metal injection molding) 3. At the very least, a slight improvement of trigger feel. 4. My respect for Randy Lee and his team and what they've been able to bring to the M&P line as a whole is amazing for a polymer gun. (this is a more recent development for me personally).

Take a step back for a while and cool off and then go back to it. it may surprise you. I will admit that I was not always the Apex fanboy I am now. until I really learned how to dive into these pistols and fine tune them, I didn't really understand the magic of a perfectly tuned "Apex-ed" M&P.

It could also be that its been too built up for you too and now your disappointed cause you were expecting more...its all pretty subjective what makes things better to people.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:22 PM
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It could also be that its been too built up for you too and now your disappointed cause you were expecting more...its all pretty subjective what makes things better to people.
I've thought this same thing myself, maybe I'm expecting an SSA-E pull or a pull like my Accu-Trigger, or even my Brimstone 10/22 out of a tupperware defensive pistol, and maybe that expectation is too high. I've never fired any sort of tuned handgun, but I will admit, although a bit heavy, the factory trigger in my old M&P9 does break, literally, and the M&P357 just never had that snap. I think I got a Tuesday built gun with the 9, and maybe a Friday with the 357.
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