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Old 04-15-2018, 12:52 AM
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I saw an EZ no safety in the shop today so I figured Iíd give it a go.

I took te gun home and gave it a quick cleaning before heading outside with my wife for some range time.

My first shot resulted in a stove pipe. I finished the magazine with no issue and shot two more magazines with no issue.

My wife then gave it a go. Her first shot resulted in a failure to feed. The first round was extracted but the next round stayed in the magazine. Her next shot was a failure to extract. Next shot was ok, the following round was a stove pipe. She handed my the gun and I emptied it with no issues.

She tried the next mag, first shot was another failure of some sort. She handed me the gun because she was over it at that point. I emptied the magazine with no issues.

My brother in law joined us later and I had him put some rounds through. He also had no problem but was hitting left with all his shots. I shot a magazine and noticed the same thing.

I adjusted the rear sight and improved brought the shots in closer, but still a little to the left. I then noticed the front sight was a little loose / wobbly.

I decided I would finish my box of ammo and was still hitting about 3Ē to the left at 40 feet.

My very last magazine I noticed as the 7th spent casing was extracted, the 8th LIVE ROUND was also ejected.

Wow.

So my wifeís issues are definitely limp wristing. She has never had that issue before and has fired a lot of seminauto handguns. We think itís the grip safety causing her to grip the gun differently.

Iím a bit disappointed. I took it apart this evening and gave it a detailed cleaning. I think I might take it out tomorrow and see what happens, but Iím thinking it may be going back, especially with the front sight being loose.

Itís amazing though that a gun marketed as a good choice for female / beginner / elderly shooters can be so easily limp wristed. She does need to work on a higher, tighter grip, but she shot her Sig P238 and M9, along with my PC Shield 9 and my CZ 75 SP-01 with zero problems.
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:08 AM
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It’s amazing though that a gun marketed as a good choice for female / beginner / elderly shooters can be so easily limp wristed.
Limp wristing a gun like the EZ is really surprising. Limp wristing occurs when the force used to hold a gun is less than the force needed to overcome the recoil spring. In short, the gun is allowed to move before or more than the slide moves, which prevents the slide from cycling properly. Since the EZ requires such minimal force to cycle the slide, the grip on the gun would have to be nearly nothing to cause a limp wristing failure.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:06 AM
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^^^^

That was my thought too, but I canít figure out why it acts up only when she shoots it... aside from my first stove pipe and the one live round ejection I had no issues (not including the sight)
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:11 AM
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The front sight is held in place by a C clip. That was a new one on me. It is not a very strong design, but I didn't notice any accuracy problems.

I noticed that the gun will fire if the grip safety is pressed only about a third of the way. If someone were to grip the gun pressing the grip safety only enough to get it to fire, I can see how there would be malfunctions.

It seems as though this gun has resulted in a new type of common malfunction, the double ejection. I am wondering if the goal of making it easy to load resulted in the use of the barest minimum tension in the magazine spring. This could result in cartridges bouncing around. The gun gets lighter and the magazine spring has less tension as the magazine is emptied, which could account for the tendency for this to occur toward the end of the magazine.

Please keep us updated.
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by USAF385 View Post
We think itís the grip safety causing her to grip the gun differently.
My 25yo granddaughter has a lot of time with her dad's and his friend's semi-autos, but on her recent visit with me, even though she enjoyed every other gun at the range, decided she did not like grip safetys.

I also took her to the local Cabela's and had her hold the .380 EZ. Didn't like the grip safety on it either.
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:24 AM
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I've said it before...the .380Auto is a finicky caliber. The .380Auto guns tend to be the least reliable of the common calibers. I see it all the time. Guys defend their .380Auto guns, but at the range they are almost always the first to have malfunctions. That doesn't mean they can't be reliable, I just haven't seen it.

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Limp wristing occurs when the force used to hold a gun is less than the force needed to overcome the recoil spring.
The "limp wrist" or shooter induced malfunction is more complicated than that. It's not just less force, but a sweet spot between no holding force and solid as a rock.

I've seen a gun that was held as loosely as possible feed perfectly. Same gun with a nice solid grip feed perfectly. Same gun with a slightly less than solid grip malfunction. There's a spot that's not zero back pressure, but not solid, that will cause just about any semi-auto to fail.

Sometimes it can be the attitude of the gun as well. My shotgun will fire fine if held from the hip or shoulder. But if I hold it over my head, it will get a Type II malfunction almost every time. Could be the position, could just be that sweet spot I'm talking about.


Quote:
...hitting left with all his shots. I shot a magazine and noticed the same thing.
This is the most common issue with any gun. Most of the time it's the shooter more than the gun.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:42 PM
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The "limp wrist" or shooter induced malfunction is more complicated than that. It's not just less force, but a sweet spot between no holding force and solid as a rock.
Human interaction with a machine is nearly always more complicated than pure physics. Force, like water, seeks the path of least resistance. If the application of force appears to produce a different result, there is some unidentified factor involved.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:41 PM
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If I got the 380EZ, i would install a houge grip sleeve to hold the grip safety in at all times and use itnlike any other no thumb safety gun like the other shields!

I do not understand why the geip safety was installed ar all???
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:50 PM
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I do not understand why the geip safety was installed ar all???
Neither do I, but a quick look at the innards would answer that. Alas, I have no access to this gun.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:51 PM
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If I got the 380EZ, i would install a houge grip sleeve to hold the grip safety in at all times and use itnlike any other no thumb safety gun like the other shields!

I do not understand why the geip safety was installed ar all???
Many people believe guns with very short, light trigger pulls are dangerous without some manual safety mechanism.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:52 PM
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Many people believe guns with very short, light trigger pulls are dangerous without some manual safety mechanism.
Um, just how does the grip safety change that?
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:29 PM
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I was told the grip safety was to prevent it discharging when dropped. Something about an internal hammer. I don't understand that but that was what read.
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:35 PM
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The grip safety is what de-activates the firing pin block. The gun is safe to drop when the grip safety is not depressed. Also, when reholstering, releasing the grip safety prevents discharge while holstering. Finally, with a holster that covers the trigger guard and has a strap that goes around the back of the slide, the gun is significantly safer for people who throw guns in purses.

Last edited by Cheyenne WYO; 04-15-2018 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:51 PM
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I had no problems with my EZ, but that was because I bought a Glock 42 first, and learned.

These small, very light .380s are a special category. Because there is less weight to counter push back, it needs a firmer grip. Now complicate that; the smaller grip leaves less space to grip. Then using a .380 generates less force to push the slide back.

They just need a firmer grip. That changed my Glock 42 from a jamamatic to reliable function.

I'm sure the reason I had no problem with my EZ was that I used a firmer grip from the start.

Don't resist using a firmer grip, it will work for you. It may also help with shooting left. If you use a firmer grip from the start, you may have less tendancy to squeeze it at the break.

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Old 04-15-2018, 11:08 PM
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Well then what I read was right.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:59 AM
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I’ve been carrying 1911’s since the early 1970’s. I like thumb safeties and grip safeties. I don’t know how you guys can even tell the grip safety is there, on the EZ. I can’t.
Neither my wife (in her seventies) or I could make ours malfunction with a variety of loads.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:22 PM
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I don't get the issue with the grip safety, I can't feel it at all while in my hand, it's a none issue.
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:57 AM
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I'm calling the double ejection RP9 disease. That is the the first modern gun I heard of exhibiting the behavior.

As for the malfunctions, not everyone's hands work the same way. For example, I cannot understand how anybody can get slide bite or hammer bite. It goes contrary to what I was told as a kid, "keep your extremities away from the moving parts". How hard can it be? One style of grip does not work for all guns, same as one driving style does not work for all cars and SUVs. The 380 EZ does not work for the OP's wife with the grip she wants to use. It happens. Sometimes it can be fixed with training, and sometimes it can't.

Shooting left with an unfamiliar gun? Who on this or any other gun board can honestly say that has never happened to them.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:55 PM
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Shooting left with an unfamiliar gun? Who on this or any other gun board can honestly say that has never happened to them.
I can, but I'm a lefty so...
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Old 04-21-2018, 04:34 PM
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First time at the range, had no problems. However, down and low with tight groups. Need more range time.
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Old 04-21-2018, 06:21 PM
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"If I got the 380EZ, i would install a houge grip sleeve to hold the grip safety in at all times and use itnlike any other no thumb safety gun like the other shields!

I do not understand why the geip safety was installed ar all???"
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Because it is not like other Shields. It is a single-action, hammer-fired pistol.
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Old 04-21-2018, 08:05 PM
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Because it is not like other Shields. It is a single-action, hammer-fired pistol.
All Shields are single action.
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Old 04-22-2018, 02:21 AM
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single action yes, but the .380 EZ is hammer fired, not striker fired.
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Old 04-22-2018, 04:02 AM
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If I got the 380EZ, i would install a houge grip sleeve to hold the grip safety in at all times and use itnlike any other no thumb safety gun like the other shields!

I do not understand why the geip safety was installed ar all???
People want to be able to holster their weapons safely.
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Old 04-22-2018, 04:45 AM
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I hope Smith gets the EZ right. I believe that there is a good market for guns designed for novice shooters or those might be handicapped or seniors who cannot operate the slides on many auto pistols.

That being said, Beretta should bring back the Model 86 Cheetah, and market it to those people. A medium sized .380 with the tip-up barrel is a perfect solution for those with recoil sensitivity and who are unable to rack a slide.
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Old 04-22-2018, 03:29 PM
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I believe that there is a good market for guns designed for novice shooters...
There is a market for this and a .380Auto isn't it.
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:35 PM
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There is a market for this and a .380Auto isn't it.
I disagree...when I go to the lgs to buy ammo, the hardest to find is 380acp.....because it is so popular now....my bodyguard380 is one of my most carried pistols, but I have a hard time finding target ammo to practice !
Lots of new gunowners out there today looking to buy 9x17 and 9x19
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Old 04-22-2018, 08:51 PM
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The "limp wrist" or shooter induced malfunction is more complicated than that. It's not just less force, but a sweet spot between no holding force and solid as a rock.

I've seen a gun that was held as loosely as possible feed perfectly. Same gun with a nice solid grip feed perfectly. Same gun with a slightly less than solid grip malfunction. There's a spot that's not zero back pressure, but not solid, that will cause just about any semi-auto to fail.

S
I've had to many auto to give an accurate count.. 30? 40? probably more..
My hold is less than solid, sometimes loosey goosey.. I draw and shoot off the hip one handed all the time..


I have NEVER had a semi that didn't function 100%..

why am I so lucky when others aren't..I don't buy into limp wristing.
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Old 04-22-2018, 09:17 PM
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We took the EZ out this weekend for round 2.

My wife took what is for her an overly exaggerated high and tight grip and had much better performance, not as good with shot placement but it functioned with only 4 feeding or extracting failures out of 6 magazines. However, out of her six magazines, the last round was ejected UNFIRED 3 times.

I gave it another go and had only one issue, a stove pipe, in all of the ten magazines I shot. It was still hitting a good amount left after adjusting the sight. And yes, itís the gun.

However, out of the ten magazines I had the last round ejected unfired 4 times. We labeled the magazines and it happens with both. Thatís a big issue.

Then as an experiment, I tried limp wristing a magazine and had 3 failures similar to my wifeís first outing.

Oh well! These things can happen.

I cleaned it up nice and traded it in yesterday. I told the shop owner and heís interested in trying it himself.

I have had absolutely no issues in any of my other S&W semi autos. This was a first for me. Honestly, the only other time I had such a bad experience was with a Bersa Thunder .380 (shudder).

I know I could have sent it in to have it looked at, but I only bought it because I think itís a great idea and was hoping to recommend it to some people. I canít do that as of yet, but maybe after itís been out for a while and everything gets smoothed out Iíll try it again.
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Old 04-22-2018, 09:47 PM
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I disagree...when I go to the lgs to buy ammo, the hardest to find is 380acp.....because it is so popular now...
I never said it wasn't popular. I just said it's not a good first gun. The two are mutually exclusive.

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My hold is less than solid, sometimes loosey goosey.. I draw and shoot off the hip one handed all the time..

I have NEVER had a semi that didn't function 100%..
Never a single malfunction in over 40 pistols? OK, if you say so. But just because you haven't had a malfunction doesn't mean shooter induced malfunctions are impossible. Like I said, it's not always just about holding it loosely. It could be that you just never hit the sweet spot. Maybe your grip is better than you think.

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I cleaned it up nice and traded it in yesterday. I told the shop owner and heís interested in trying it himself.

...the only other time I had such a bad experience was with a Bersa Thunder .380 (shudder).
Trading it in was probably the right thing for you. I've seen many of the .380Auto guns have lots of malfunctions. People keep telling me how great they are, but I have yet to see it. I would like nothing better than to see a .380Auto that really works well.

My sister-in-law bought a Sig Sauer P238 and she likes it a lot. I have not fired or even handled it, but she says it works good. Maybe try that.
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:30 AM
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I never said it wasn't popular. I just said it's not a good first gun. The two are mutually exclusive.
What do you believe is a good "first gun" since a lot of people appear to favor the Shield EZ?
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:12 AM
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What do you believe is a good "first gun" since a lot of people appear to favor the Shield EZ?
A gun that doesn't have "EZ" in the name title of it. They're bringing that consumer marketing into the game now. Which usually means the opposite of whatever they claim.
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullet Bob View Post
"If I got the 380EZ, i would install a houge grip sleeve to hold the grip safety in at all times and use itnlike any other no thumb safety gun like the other shields!

I do not understand why the geip safety was installed ar all???"
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Because it is not like other Shields. It is a single-action, hammer-fired pistol.
Probably for the same reasons that the army wanted a grip safety on the model 1911. Makes it less likely to put holes in things you don't want them in.
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Old 04-23-2018, 05:30 PM
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A gun that doesn't have "EZ" in the name title of it. They're bringing that consumer marketing into the game now. Which usually means the opposite of whatever they claim.
Oh, my!

What if the marketing claims are true? Colt did actually sell the Government Model to, well, the government.

Is it okay if guns companies camouflage the name with initials rather than making claims like Light Carry, or Easy Carry, or Every Day Carry?
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Old 04-23-2018, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
My sister-in-law bought a Sig Sauer P238 and she likes it a lot. I have not fired or even handled it, but she says it works good. Maybe try that.
My wife has had one for about two years now and loves it. It is really a great little shooter. The only issue weíve had with the P238 is one of the magazines sometimes doesnít lock the slide back.

Weíre really not upset about the EZ not working out. Like I said, it was more of an interest in trying it out.
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Old 04-27-2018, 04:14 AM
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S&W should make a new EZ M&P, based on the Model 10 or 64 M&P revolver.

A three or four inch round butt Model 10 in a matte blue finish or 64 in black stainless with Pachmayr Compac or Hogue Bantam grips. Equipped with some high visibility/fiber optic sight. Have a DAO model and Crimson Trace model as options. This would be the easiest and softest shooting Smith & Wesson around, and when loaded with FBI loads, a far better solution than a .380 ACP.
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