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Old 04-18-2018, 03:30 PM
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Default Red Dot - Vortex Viper vs Trijicon RM07

I'm starting a new thread so as to not sidetrack my other thread, topically speaking. Others may wish to check that one for other information.

I have just purchased an M&P Core. I am thinking of either buying a Trijicon RM07, used, locally for $325. This would require me to purchase an adapter plate for $71. My other option is to nab a new Vortex Viper for $198 plus $50 for the adapter plate.

Which route do those of you "in the know" suggest I go? I ask because, even though I am a fan of Trijicon, I have read about a lot of failures with the RM07 on pistols and the Viper appears to be relatively knew. Feel free to debate if you wish. I'm in no rush and would like input from people who have used either.

Last edited by BigSky!; 04-18-2018 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:48 PM
pmc847 pmc847 is offline
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Your CORE should have come with adapter plate for the Vortex . I have a Vortex Razer on mine but it required modification to fit. The other Vortex bolt right on with no mods. Vortex is a great company with wonderful owners and they just moved to their new location just down the road from me. Outstanding warranty, no questioned asked.

Cheers

Philip
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmc847 View Post
Your CORE should have come with adapter plate for the Vortex . I have a Vortex Razer on mine but it required modification to fit. The other Vortex bolt right on with no mods. Vortex is a great company with wonderful owners and they just moved to their new location just down the road from me. Outstanding warranty, no questioned asked.

Cheers

Philip
Right on! There should be no need to pay $50 (Outrageous, in my opinion) for an adapter plate for the Viper. According to the Vortex website, the Viper will install on the CORE using the included adapter plate #5 and the included type C screws.

I have a Vortex Venom on my FNX-45 Tactical, and I wholeheartedly agree with pmc847/Philip that Vortex makes a great product. I've had it for a year and a half, and have fired thousands of rounds with no adjustments necessary after the original sight-in.

You might want to consider a Venom in the 3 m.o.a. configuration. That's what I have. The dot is very bright and easy to pick up, and does not obscure the bullseye area of the target as much as a 6 m.o.a. dot would. But that's what works for me. Either way, you can't go wrong with Vortex.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by swsig View Post
You might want to consider a Venom in the 3 m.o.a. configuration. That's what I have. The dot is very bright and easy to pick up, and does not obscure the bullseye area of the target as much as a 6 m.o.a. dot would. But that's what works for me. Either way, you can't go wrong with Vortex.
I may be wrong; but, I thought, in my research, it had been written by somebody that the Venom sat higher and did not co-witness well with the M&P sights. Can anybody confirm that it does sit too high? I will continue to research it.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BigSky! View Post
I may be wrong; but, I thought, in my research, it had been written by somebody that the Venom sat higher and did not co-witness well with the M&P sights. Can anybody confirm that it does sit too high? I will continue to research it.
I can't answer that, not having a CORE. The Venom does co-witness with my FNX-45T, which has elevated sights for that purpose. I would contact both S&W and Vortex customer service. If they both say yes to co-witness, there you are. However, I hope some of our fellow Forum members with COREs will help you out here.

As a practical matter, I've not found co-witnessing to be essential while shooting with a red dot. If it is properly sighted in, the bullet will go where the red dot is pointed, whether or not it is co-witnessed. When I'm shooting, I pretty much ignore the iron sights, and just line up the dot with the target.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:43 PM
Browzinbob Browzinbob is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swsig View Post
I can't answer that, not having a CORE. The Venom does co-witness with my FNX-45T, which has elevated sights for that purpose. I would contact both S&W and Vortex customer service. If they both say yes to co-witness, there you are. However, I hope some of our fellow Forum members with COREs will help you out here.

As a practical matter, I've not found co-witnessing to be essential while shooting with a red dot. If it is properly sighted in, the bullet will go where the red dot is pointed, whether or not it is co-witnessed. When I'm shooting, I pretty much ignore the iron sights, and just line up the dot with the target.
I have a CORE in the 4.25" slide. One of the Vortex, can't remember which now, doesn't have a plate to fit. Maybe they've come out with one since I looked it up a year ago.

On the cowitnessed dot, I have wondered about it a lot. I haven't bought an optic yet, but want to soon. My fear is muscle memory from shooting with the dot optic way above the iron sights not working well if I want to shoot a gun with iron sights. Also, having the iron sights visible thru the optic is important if the optic stopped working during an important shoot/match/confrontation.

I appreciate this discussion. Its helpful for me too.

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Old 04-19-2018, 02:00 AM
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On the cowitnessed dot, I have wondered about it a lot. I haven't bought an optic yet, but want to soon. My fear is muscle memory from shooting with the dot optic way above the iron sights not working well if I want to shoot a gun with iron sights. Also, having the iron sights visible thru the optic is important if the optic stopped working during an important shoot/match/confrontation.

I appreciate this discussion. Its helpful for me too.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
I had my FNX for a few months before I put the Venom on it, so I had time to get fairly proficient with the iron sights. However, the Venom improved my accuracy enough so that I'm now reluctant to turn it off. I've managed to force myself to do it a couple of times, but I should do it more often to maintain my iron sight proficiency.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swsig View Post
I had my FNX for a few months before I put the Venom on it, so I had time to get fairly proficient with the iron sights. However, the Venom improved my accuracy enough so that I'm now reluctant to turn it off. I've managed to force myself to do it a couple of times, but I should do it more often to maintain my iron sight proficiency.
Yeah, I have heard once you are used to optic it should improve your shooting. My eyes are aging, so an optic makes sense, but I want to be able to shoot irons anytime needed. I was teaching myself to shoot, 'point/shoot', and was getting very good at it, but in some training my instructor brought me back to using the sights. It took some time to get the muscle memory reworked for fast draw shots.

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Old 04-19-2018, 11:58 AM
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For me, a larger dot like the 6.5 MoA RMR 07 does not work as well as the 3.5 MoA dot of the RMR 06.

Adjustable dots like these stay on a setting until changed. You will find an average in the middle of the adjustment range that works in most cases. Without adjustment in darker conditions the dot will appear larger only because it is more visible. However, for many of us with older eyes it will also flare and become less precise. This flairing is minimized with the smaller dot. The smaller dot is also more precise, especially at distance.

It is still easy to pck up, and the 3.5 is closer to the size of the dots on most iron sights. The 6.5 is way bigger. The need for co-witnessing has been discussed in previous threads.

With your CORE, be sure to get a mounting plate for your optic that is as low as possible yet thick enough for the mounting screws to really grab (polar opposites) and that the plate either has pins that the base of the sight sit on or shelves cut precisely for the front and rear of the sight. The fore/aft movement of the sight should not be stopped at each end by a couple of little shallow screws. Because of using an adapter plate, your sight will sit higher above the bore than necessary. It will be more difficult to get a good 25-30% co-witness. Check carefully that the sight you want has as slim a base height wise as possible. Stacking a tall sight with a plate will get it much higher than many suppressor height sights.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:09 PM
Saudade Saudade is offline
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I bought a new Type 1 RMR06 for $350 to mount to my CORE slide kit on my FS M&P9. The slide kit came with all the plates and suppressor height sites. The RMR has a lower 1/3 cowitness.
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