A very pertinent question. I would second it to the OP.

A short story: My wife had never shot a gun in her life. So, after I got my Shield-9, I took her to the range (shocked to my core that she requested it) to let her try it out. She absolutely could not operate the slide, so did it for her at each mag load.

That women shot center of aim with the same gun that I was shooting left 2-3" at 7 yds. AND, she had tighter groups. She then wanted to try a Glock, cuz all the novels she's been reading have the good guys carrying Glocks. So I went out to the desk and rented a G-43, which has been called the real target of the Shield (I digress). She shot that thing just as good and I still hit left 2-3".

So yeah, if a good steady rest is not available, have your wife or girlfriend try it.

It's not. It's a trouble shooting tool.

This is exactly right.

When people are having trouble the idea is to find the root cause. When Canyon Man told us what was different between the pistols, and that he shot the small one better, it lent itself to the pinky issue. Yes, it's a real issue and causes a lot of people to shoot low. Is it the only issue? Maybe not, but it is certainly part of the equation.

Sticking the pinky out shows hot it affects the shot group by removing the pinky from the equation. Then it can be added back in with the realization of how important it is to keep it relaxed.

I disagree. There is no single important thing that must be taught first, but a group that must be taught together. Besides, how do you teach trigger control if you haven't taught how to hold the gun?

There are six fundamentals to shooting a handgun:

1. Stance
2. Grip
3. Sight Alignment
4. Sight Picture
5. Trigger Control
6. Follow Through

I'm not going to go into a full class on what each part is, but suffice it to say, they all go together. Is one more important? No, I don't think so. Each part plays an essential role in the operation of a firearm. The NRA course teaches it by using different terminology, but it's still the same list.

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[QUOTE=Flintlock1;140059288]A very pertinent question. I would second it to the OP.

I had a friend of mine shoot a couple of six shot groups with it. I'd guess his shots were about 60% as low as mine were. So he shot a little low too, but not as much as myself. He had also never fired this pistol before.

Without proper trigger control, all the rest of the items on your list are wasted effort.

Alright I'll play your game, what's proper trigger control?

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I almost feel bad keeping this thread dragging along. Shot 200 rounds today. Did about 120 rounds of five shot groups at 12 yards. Not real impressive, but was four and five inch groups for the vast majority. Couple three inch groups.

I tried Rastoff's suggestion of extending my pinky out. First round I missed the whole target lol. I think was high. Was shooting smaller targets - I think eight inches - plenty big enough for 12 yards tho. Extending the pinky did seem to help. I did a couple five shot groups like that, and the low shots were only a couple inches. I then made sure my emphasis on grip was focused more on the top and middle of the grip.

I'm shooting circular patterns for the most part, as many a couple inches high as there are low shots. More shots going left than right - shooter error. I believe I've FINALLY conquered the shooting low issue. Much thanks to everyone for pitching in advice on this thread. And Rastoff, I certainly apologize for being so rude with you in the early going in this thread. I believe you really hit the nail on the head with extending the pinky. It appears I was exerting too much pressure on the bottom of the grip. I can't remember focusing so much on grip before.

I fired a couple groups thru my FNS long slide (.40 cal) I was a little tighter group with that pistol than the Smith. The FNS has a larger front sight dot, and I seem to focus it quicker and easier. Funny because a bigger dot covers more of the target - but it is what it is. I'm shooting the G 23 about the same or a little better than the FNS. That 6 o'clock hold I like there.

My next move is the Apex triggers. I'll do the long slide before the compacts - just to make sure the trigger suits me. At like $160.00 per trigger, I'm not made of money lol. I have also planned to go with night sights. However, seeing how I'm acquiring the bigger dot on the FNS noticeably better, I may rethink that - possibly a high viz front sight. The sights I choose are going to turn out to be a real chore on what will work best for me and still fill the needs of my intended purpose - which is self defense - not target shooting. I'm sure there are all sorts of opinions on the topic of sights and shooting, and I know it's a different type shooting - but at the end of the day, I feel like target shooting and self defense shooting are not really all that different. You know what they say, shot placement is key.

I was outdoor shooting in the desert again today, and I must say - I love it out there. Getting out there at like 6:00, and staying just until the sun goes down enough to not be able to see the targets well enough. Once I'm off the concrete and down the dirt road, the heat isn't near as bad, and hasn't bothered me one bit. I rapid fired 10 rounds a couple times at rocks on hillsides I deemed as enemy combatants lol. It's a good target because I can see how big my groupings are as the rounds hit the surrounding dirt. At like 15 yards I'd say I was grouping about two and a half feet. I'm not certain how good that is, but was pulling the trigger as fast as I could. And it's a .40 cal, not a 9mm.

The guy I go shooting with is out of town for another week on vacation. We are going to an outdoor range for rifle shooting, making sure our rifles are sighted in correctly. It's been a while since we've done that. Hopefull the following week I can get him out to open desert for pistol shooting.

I've been unable to send pics and vids from my phone to my computer for a few months now. A new phone arrives in the mail tomorrow. I want to get some vid of me shooting so I can see how my muzzle flip is while shooting, especially rapid firing. I do have some muzzle flip, but it seems minimal to me. I think only seeing a vid of me shooting will be the best way to tell. I don't have camera equipment, so I can't do it when shooting solo. All part of trying to get better I guess.

Glad to see your are making improvements. A couple of things that I read a long time ago that help me.
-You hand will wobble, nothing you can do will eliminate it completely. But more experience will reduce it. Now that your groups are almost centered on the target, time will reduce group size.
- As you are lining up the sights, you can see them move around and, at times, pass right over the bullseye. Do NOT try to time your shot so it goes off as the sights cross over the bullseye. Just hold the gun as best you can and squeeze.
- There is a time curve that applies to how much your hands wobble starting from when you raise the gun to start aiming. These are not absolute but just a general idea. First few seconds pretty wobbly. Next 10-15 seconds most stable. Beyond that point, wobble starts to increase again. What I take from this is, when trying for most accuracy, I shoot 5 shots maximum, and then lower the gun to a ready position and relax.

There is a balance between speed and accuracy. Where that balance is set is dependent on the intended type of shooting.

For premium accuracy, you have to go slower. For successful defense, you have to go at least a little faster, but a wider spread is OK.

The best accuracy anyone could ever achieve would be to put all rounds through the same hole. That's impossible and has never been done. The error in the gun and ammunition precludes this. Still, with a good gun and practiced hand, a very small group is achievable. For the M&P series, a 2" group at 10 yards is very good. It is not a bullseye gun and we all need to remember that.

When shooting for best accuracy and precision, I rest between each shot. This fatigues the muscles less and helps maintain a steady hold.

Defensive shooting requires more speed. If time is taken to ensure a perfect shot, the defender gets shot; bad. Speed must be increased to ensure that doesn't happen. This speed increase usually comes at the cost of some accuracy. That's OK because a controlled pair only needs to be about a fist to a thumb and pinky spread. Any closer than a fist and you're going too slow. Any further apart than a thumb and pinky spread and you're going too fast. That's where the balance comes in. You must go fast enough to beat the bad guy, but slow enough to ensure the shot.

When I practice controlled pairs, I always use a timer. I find 2 seconds to be a good place to start. At 7 yards, from the ready, put 2 shots on target within 2 seconds. Personally I use a faster time and start from concealment, but 2 seconds from the ready is a good place to start. Add a little time for longer distances, subtract some time for closer distances.

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Much good and appreciated info in the above two posts. Thanks CBStuard and Rastoff. I'm going to continue shooting paper rather than steel for a while. I'm not giving up on steel plates as it's a fun way to shoot. But I think I'll get my groups to a satisfactory size first. I also think after I go back to shooting at steel, I'll include some paper target shooting on a regular basis. Verification on groups type thing.

Re; Timer. I have an app on my phone called 'Splits'. Not quite as handy as a timer that hangs on your belt but works really well and was <$5.

I just found this thread and my M&P rear sight has drifted way off to the left. I check the set screw and it took very little effort to unscrew it with no heat. There is Red Loctite residue on the screw.
Probably going to just take it to a gunsmith and get night sights put on. I thought about getting a sight pusher but I hear sometimes M&P sights are easy to push and sometimes not.


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While that may work on most modern semi-autos, I cannot recommend it for milsurp rifles. You may guess how I know.

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Great. Hahahahah!

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Class 01 FFL