I have been zeroing my M&P Shield 9mm and Compact 9mm 2.0. There is no elevation sight adjustment. I wanted to know what to expect for elevation zeroing from the factory.


I called the factory and they said there is no factory zeroing process for either windage or elevation. They said the engineers have designed elevation zero into the handgun. I then asked at what range and for what kind of ammo could I expect my POI to be the same as my POA. The rep said he didn't know and that us common folk cannot speak to the engineers.


Does anyone know how the S&W engineers design the sights for elevation zero? This would involve what kind of sight picture I should be using and at what range I should expect POA=POI for a given type of ammo.

I don't know S&W specifically. Many manufacturers design it for around 15 yards. That will vary with ammo type. It's not a real zero.

I know that Sig is at 15yds because I asked them. I think 15 yds is the standard.

Not to be rude, but what difference does such factory info make? No matter what their mass produced gun is designed for, its your responsibility to choose your best ammo and zero the sights for the distance you determine.

If you want to be really precise, you may have to replace one or both sights.

Getting an elevation zero on an M&P pistol is a whole other ball game compared to windage zeroing. We can drift the sights for windage zeroing but there is no easy way to adjust for elevation zero unless you want to change sights.

I am doing some research on zeroing on handguns and that is the main reason I asked. However, I would like to know at what range I might expect POI=POA for elevation with a specific type of ammo. I can then concentrate on that range to test elevation zeroing. The factory could have screwed up the sights and I would like to have some idea whether I have reasonably sized sights for elevation zero.

I believe you are over analyzing. Put it on a rest & shoot it, carefully. You’ll quickly find out whatever it is you’re seeking. There is no meaningful factory standard to help you.

With a handgun, how the shooter grips the handgun and minor manufacturing variances can affect the "zero" (the distance at which the bullet crosses the LOS the first time), as well as the ammo used.
Most handguns are designed for about 15yds, military (center) zero.
I have found a few that are designed for 6 o'clock hold on an NRA target.


As a practical matter, on a fixed sight service pistol if your zero is anywhere from 7 yds to 20 yds your gun is acceptable for service use.
If that is not good enough for your purposes, you can either change sight height or buy a pistol with adjustable sights.


what infuriates some shooters is showing them that their pistol shooting low is caused by their shooting technique, and their pistol shoots nice 1" groups COM at (say) 12yds in my hands off a rest.


I will never forget the student who shot acceptably small groups at 5 yds....A FOOT LOW.. with a Glock 19...but shot to POA from a rest. Most consistent flinch I ever saw.

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Science plus Art

Hey CB3,

You recommend shooting the handgun with a rest and I will quickly discover my zeroing issues.

This recommendation does not work for us average folk.

1) Getting a good rest position is very difficult at an indoor range. Their zeroing gear is poor, their tables are not deep enough to hold any zeroing fixture that I buy. Their tables are the wrong height for the chair provided.

2) You assume that the shooter can shoot tight groups. Not happening! With the poor rest situation and my mediocre shooting my groups will be spread out even at 10 yards. Add my poor vision and not knowing whether I should be using a 6 o'clock, center of mass, or combat sight picture, I am never quite sure how to explain elevation errors.

It would help me tremendously if I knew what kind of sight picture the factory designed this gun for and what range and ammo I can get POI=POA. I can then work around this information and figure out if the factory screwed up the elevation zero.

I just want elevation POI=POA for some kind of sight picture, for some kind of ammo, for some range between 10 yards and 50 yards.

I certainly can’t argue with that logic.

Or....

Pick a sight picture (I use "combat hold")

Pick an ammo load. I use 124gr Freedom Munitions (pick an SD round if you prefer)

Pick a distance, I use 15 yards.

Shoot a bunch of rounds. If you're all over the target "zero" is meaningless. If you're grouping well, then adjust any one factor above until you reach poi=poa.

Once that's done, feel free to switch out the others. POI will shift but then you'll have an idea how these factors affect it.

This topic came up a year or 2 back and I seem to recall the Shield sight picture was the front sight covering the point of aim, not the 6 o'clock hold. This is how my pistol aims.

Mals

If you can’t shoot a gun well enough to take advantage of precision zeroing, and yet you want your gun precision zeroed, have someone else who is competent do it for you.

Using some general internet experience with ammo and sight picture and distance to develop your own gun’s precision aiming, considering all the variables involved, just adds complexity to the process.

If conditions at your indoor range are so bad for this exercise, find another place to shoot, even outdoors with your own table and rest.

But you will never develop or confirm your zero, for your gun, with your choice of sights and ammo and zeroing distance, without experimentally shooting your gun precisely.

Recognizing this, the factory does not offer you meaningless guidelines they can’t guarantee in a mass produced gun they don’t test and adjust for accuracy.

Buy a custom gun with custom ammo sighted in and sample targets with an accuracy guarantee, then you will have paid someone to do this work for you. But if you are not a good shot, it won’t be worth the money.

Really, just hang a target in good light at the distance you want to have your zero with some decent target ammo you like, find a way to rest your forearms and hands (not the gun) on something solid, and send five rounds downrange using perfect sight alignment, sight picture and grip and trigger press. If you have a group on the target less than two inches you can now see what your PoA vs. PoI is. If your group is greater than 2” rested at 15 yards or less, stop. Have someone else who is an experienced and competent shooter shoot exactly the same set up. If that person also can’t produce a sub 2” group, stop. You may have a real mechanical issue.

If the elevation of your <2” group is not centered, move the target closer or farther until you find your elevation for your gun and ammo. Adjust windage. You’re zeroed. Change ammo. Do it again. Variations will be within a couple of inches.

If you want a different specific elevation PoI for your particular PoA at a chosen distance, you will have to make sight changes.

You can expect only a few inches of elevation variance between 7-20 yards shooting. Your shots will be on a 14” target. It’s not a huge deal.

The factory did not put a different sight on your gun than everyone else’s, or machine parts and assemble them with tolerances so out of spec that you have to worry about whether they screwed up your aiming point. They have delivered to you one of a million mass manufactured guns that performs within an acceptable standard of accuracy, the details of which vary slightly based on shooters’ choices.

Really, you just need to shoot the gun in as controlled an environment as possible to eliminate as much shooter error as possible. If you can’t do that, you simply cannot zero your gun, no matter how much information anyone gives you.

CB3 nails this topic with his detailed answer. It is somewhat comical that newer shooters expect perfect performance from a handgun regardless of their ability and even blame the engineers who designed the gun if the shooter can not accomplish their desired results. So many factors come into play that include distance, ammo, sight picture, trigger pull and on and on. Buy the gun of your dreams, buy the ammo you want to use and practice with different sight pictures at different ranges. What works for one may not work for another. If you don’t meet your expectations with your gun, let someone with shooting experience try it and expect to be humbled...

+1 There are no instant Jerry Miculek's and you can't buy em at Cabela's or Bass Pro and they haven't engineered one yet.

I have never had a problem shooting from a rest at an indoor range.

Guys,

All I was looking for was the information similar to what Sig-Sauer posts on their website (see below). It would save me many a 20 cent bullet expense and allow me to concentrate on the fun part of shooting. If I had a Sig, I could use a combat sight picture and shoot at 15 yards. If my elevation zero was reasonable, I could quit messing around with this issue and get to the fun shooting!

The following is from Sig's website (FAQ section)

My SIG SAUER pistol is not accurate. Why? What should I do?

All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a “combat” sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bullseye of the target. Using a six o’clock (“pumpkin on a post”) or center mass (“half’n’half”) sight picture will result in low impact. SIG SAUER, Inc sights in all non-sporting and non-target pistols for 2.5 inch groupings @ 15 yards. If you are still having trouble please contact Customer Service for further help and instruction. Please have your serial number ready. There are also very helpful free Internet sites that cover pistol group analysis.

OK, Curious, here's what I would do if you took basic pistol from me with your S&W.
Get a piece of cardboard and staple a paper plate to it at 5 yards.
Take this center sight picture:

Note the target is fuzzy and the front sight is clear. Fire 5 shots. Are they all on the paper plate? If no, then work on fundamentals of grip and trigger control until you can hit the paper plate every shot.
Keep working (may take lots of practice) until you can put 10 shots in a coffee cup sized group.
Then we can talk about what to do if that group is way off from the center of the paper plate. This might involve drifting a sight or taking a different sight picture, or perhaps changing a sight as a last resort.
There are qualified pistol instructors over the country that teach basic pistol listed on the NRA website.


P.S. When you master this drill, back up and keep concentrating on the fundamentals.

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Science plus Art

OK, I expect Sig's answer is based upon what their designers/engineers calculated for folks who are using the dots on the sights rather than the classic sight picture so well described in post 17.

Also realize, as noted above, that vertical shot placement is affected by your grip as well as your trigger stroke.

Having said all that, the sights of most handguns are calculated to put a bullet about 2"/50 mm high at about 25 yards/meters. This pretty much lets you hold dead on out to 50 yard/meters with a pretty fair chance of hitting your target. You also have to realize that POI & POA will be the same twice. Once when your bullet is rising toward the sight adjustment and once while it is descending, having passed the high point of it's trajectory.

Looking at the example I just gave, your bullet will have POI/POA match somewhere between the muzzle and 25 yards/meters and again somewhere beyond 25 yards/meters.

Curious, I completely understand what your looking for. I see it all the time at the academy. Recruits who have spectacular or at least good groups that are high or low because they don't know how their sights are regulated. SIG sights (probably because most SIGs come standard with night sights these days) and many night sights are manufactured to be regulated so that the front sight dot is treated like a red dot rifle sight. You line up the three dots and cover where you want to hit with the front sight dot.

Others regulate their sights for a six o'clock hold, meaning you want to float the target on top of the front sight. It will look like a lollipop on the stick (relatively speaking) when you have it correct. This is a more target style of regulation because you can "see" where you are placing the rounds because in theory they will hit on top of the front sight blade. Bottom line is try this at 3 yards, then at 5 yards, if you cover the target and hit high, the sights are regulated for 6 o'clock. If you hit what you are covering, they are regulated for point of aim or "combat" hold. A common paper plate with a 1" or so black dot on it for an aiming reference would sufficient for your purpose. Most fixed sight handguns are regulated to one of these two sighting procedures, but of course just to be a pain some are not. In your case with an M&P my experience is it will be for either combat or 6 o'clock.

Please remember though this only tells you how the sights work if they are properly aligned to each other, and the target, and everything remains properly aligned through the trigger press and discharge of the projectile. I have no idea what your level of training is but it really doesn't matter as long as you apply the fundamentals this will give you an idea of how your sights work.

Good luck.

OKFC05 has nailed it down real good-- hard to go wrong with his advice.

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JAREDSHS
LEO(retired)

OP, I have four S&W pistols. All of them are zeroed in elevation at 20 yards IN MY HANDS using Winchester White Box 115 grain target ammo.

Unfortunately, this doesn't solve your question. My answer is only good with WWB 115 grain in MY hands. It's not S&W's fault, it's the complicated nature of the art of pistol shooting.

I really don't have to know what a S&W tech shot with HIS hands and HIS ammo. That won't help me.

You have been given a lot of good info. Now, overcome your frustration and try to enjoy the learning process. Also; don't expect your Shield 9 to shoot exactly like your Sig. Guns are as different as people.

When you master that Shield, you will say it was worth it. Then you will want to master the next one. Keep at it, you will get where you want.

Thank you all for the information and advice.