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Old 10-18-2018, 12:41 AM
JP7678 JP7678 is offline
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First some background. I grew up shooting mostly old 22s, 30-30, and 30-06 rifles all with open iron sights. The only pistols I used and used often were a couple of Colt SAA pistols and until I was 38 and bought my first semi auto, an M&P 9C (which I still have and enjoy) I had never seen 3 dot sights before that. Been working on improving ever since and with several different semi autos. The transitions hasn't been an easy one.

So I was out shooting my Bersa Thunder 380cc this week and something occurred to me. I scored really well despite it having nubs for sights, even at longer range distances. I was far more accurate than with any other semi auto I own. I know how folks talk about how its a blowback and a smaller caliber (low recoil) so its easier. I really think it is because I inadvertently found myself using the sights the way I grew up using all gun sights. That is line the tops of the front and rear sights, generally ignore the rear after this, focus first on the target, then shift focus to the front sight as the blade of the front sight comes up, the very tip of the thin front sight is the POA.

This highlights the problem I have been having. I have had a hard time transitioning to the 3 dot sights. I tend to ignore the rear sight dots paying most attention to the front. I grew up placing the POA at the tip (top) of the sight blade, not halfway down where a dot is. If shooting at a bulls eye circle with the fat M&P post sight it should obscure the bottom half of the circle leaving the top half still visible with the top of the sight touching the center of the target (sight picture). I am also used to front sights being a very narrow blade so you can still see the target rather than a big fat column like post sight that obscures the center of target. There is just something not intuitive for me about hiding the target behind a big fat front sight and when you can no longer see the target any more you assume you are lined up for the shot. Placing the dot entirely over the bulls eye of the target and with a tall post sight I can only try to imagine if I'm lined up vertically. Horizontally isn't so bad IF I can see the sides of the target (something the fat sight interferes with if at distance), but vertically its just guess work. I don't like guess work. Hell, the old GI 1911 style sights make more sense to me than these modern types.

Sorry for a long write up. Its a semi rant, but there is a real question here. Does anyone have any advise? How do you all compensate or is this not a problem for anyone other then me? Are there no thin front blade sight after market options for M&Ps or sights with POA at the tip/top of the front post? I would settle for the latter if that's all that was available. I assume not but just thought I'd ask. I really like semi autos much more than revolvers (unless they are old west types). My only frustration are the sights.
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:58 AM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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When using a three dots type site, I change my way of thinking as to how they are intended to be used.
Usally point of aim should be point of impact, but based upon the dot not the top edge of the sight.
Also I do not see the gap to line up the target. What I mean is I hold the sights dots in a horizontal level while putting the front sight on the dead center (x-ring).
You are correct that the relatively fat front sight and the location of the dot will cover the target.
So what I do is I look at the target figure out a projection view of an estimated cross over the target.
So say the two rear dots are just larger than the target, then estimate a phantom vertical line that completes the cross. You then can get the proper elevation even though the dot and front sight covers the target.
I developed that approach after using indoor range with low light so I could not easily see the dark outline of the sight but could easily see the three dots.
Not sure if the designers intended to use the sight that way but for me it is very effective.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 10-18-2018 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP7678 View Post
First some background. I grew up shooting mostly old 22s, 30-30, and 30-06 rifles all with open iron sights. The only pistols I used and used often were a couple of Colt SAA pistols and until I was 38 and bought my first semi auto, an M&P 9C (which I still have and enjoy) I had never seen 3 dot sights before that. Been working on improving ever since and with several different semi autos. The transitions hasn't been an easy one.

So I was out shooting my Bersa Thunder 380cc this week and something occurred to me. I scored really well despite it having nubs for sights, even at longer range distances. I was far more accurate than with any other semi auto I own. I know how folks talk about how its a blowback and a smaller caliber (low recoil) so its easier. I really think it is because I inadvertently found myself using the sights the way I grew up using all gun sights. That is line the tops of the front and rear sights, generally ignore the rear after this, focus first on the target, then shift focus to the front sight as the blade of the front sight comes up, the very tip of the thin front sight is the POA.

This highlights the problem I have been having. I have had a hard time transitioning to the 3 dot sights. I tend to ignore the rear sight dots paying most attention to the front. I grew up placing the POA at the tip (top) of the sight blade, not halfway down where a dot is. If shooting at a bulls eye circle with the fat M&P post sight it should obscure the bottom half of the circle leaving the top half still visible with the top of the sight touching the center of the target (sight picture). I am also used to front sights being a very narrow blade so you can still see the target rather than a big fat column like post sight that obscures the center of target. There is just something not intuitive for me about hiding the target behind a big fat front sight and when you can no longer see the target any more you assume you are lined up for the shot. Placing the dot entirely over the bulls eye of the target and with a tall post sight I can only try to imagine if I'm lined up vertically. Horizontally isn't so bad IF I can see the sides of the target (something the fat sight interferes with if at distance), but vertically its just guess work. I don't like guess work. Hell, the old GI 1911 style sights make more sense to me than these modern types.

Sorry for a long write up. Its a semi rant, but there is a real question here. Does anyone have any advise? How do you all compensate or is this not a problem for anyone other then me? Are there no thin front blade sight after market options for M&Ps or sights with POA at the tip/top of the front post? I would settle for the latter if that's all that was available. I assume not but just thought I'd ask. I really like semi autos much more than revolvers (unless they are old west types). My only frustration are the sights.
I HAVE NO ADVICE, BUT I AM HERE TO OFFER YOU SUPPORT.....

I GUT MY TEETH ON OPEN IRON SIGHTS OVER 60 YEARS AGO. I DON'T FAVOR THREE DOT SIGHTS, BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT YOU IDENTIFY.....

THE WEAPONS THAT WEAR THEM ARE NOT INTENDED FOR BULLSEYE SHOOTING TYPE PRECISION. THEY ARE PRIMARILY DESIGNED FOR SELF DEFENSE, THE 3 DOTS AID IN RAPID SIGHT ALIGNMENT IN HIGH STRESS SITUATIONS---PRECISE ENOUGH TO ALLOW THE SHOOTER TO PUT ROUNDS INTO A HUMAN TORSO......

IMHO, THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN IRON SIGHTS, RED DOT OPTICS, OR CT LASER GRIPS---DEPENDING ON YOUR AGE OR YOUR VISION---TO ALLOW YOU TO SHOOT ONE RACCED HOLE GROUPS......
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:24 AM
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Your three dot OEM SW sight evaluation is correct. Here are better sight systems out there, but they usually do not come standard.

So, you have options:

1. Black out the rear dots and open up the rear notch with a small fine file. Black out the front sight too. Narrow it if you want.

2. Get aftermarket sights to your liking.
Heine I-Dot are easier to use than 3-dot and come with tritium visibly only in low light. They are metal. The front blade is narrow with good light and target visibility around it.

3. Many other replacement types and brands are available. I dislike the fiber rods. I don’t need colors confusing my fast target acquisition. Same with colored three dot. I don’t want a big dot set that basically obscures the whole target.

4. As I am 69 years old, my ability to use standard iron sights of any configuration is getting more challenged. My shooting is almost exclusively for self defense, but I want real accuracy capability, not “combat range accuracy”. When I use my slide mounted red dot sights with higher co-witnessed I-dot, I have the best of both worlds. It’s $$$, but worth it for a serious use gun. 20 minutes of good coaching while dry firing will get you started if you can find a gun. It’s like cheating because you can stay target focused rather than sight focused. Easier and faster.

Good luck. Try before you buy.

Last edited by CB3; 10-18-2018 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:21 AM
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@jp7678 I feel exactly the same as you regarding the 3 dot sights. I too grew up shooting with basic iron sights. Thank you for the write-up. After many thousands of rounds, I am now just getting used to 3 dot. Just takes lots of practice. I would like to point out, that during my 45 year working career, I did little to no shooting. So, effectively, I had to learn all over again. ......but....like riding a bike...ya know!!!

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Old 10-18-2018, 07:49 AM
Andy Lowry Andy Lowry is offline
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I usually apply a black magic marker to the dots.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:09 AM
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First all my pistols have sights that use #2 in this picture
SIGHT Images by craig stuard, on Flickr
Some worked out this way as they came and some I had to change sight height. As you said, for me, covering the target bullseye w/ the front sight is a dumb way to shoot. Using this picture the apparent width of the front post would ideally be the same as the width of the bullseye. That ideal doesn't happen very often but I can center a smaller bullseye on top of the post. I can also align the post in the center of a fat bullseye. I use the dots as an assist in lining up the pistol and they are more or less useful depending on the color or brightness of the target. If shooting at a light target, I am using the sights and mostly ignoring the dots. But if shooting at a darker target, where the black sights themselves would mostly blend w/ the target, then the dots come into play. I do not use the front dot as the aiming device. I use it to assist me in seeing the sights and to make sure the the top of the front post is the same height as the tops of rear sight.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:19 AM
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For me, the best solution to three dot sights is a black magic marker or black shoe polish.

Not uncommonly, a file to widen the rear sights is helpful.

Dot sights are very slow and incredibly fussy gizmos.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:25 AM
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If you're having difficulty aligning the 3, I've found the I dot system to be more intuitive. You're simply lining up two dots. Granted, in some high stress situations, most folks are probably only focusing on the front sight, but I've found lining up two dots quicker and less complex than three.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:25 AM
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What a couple of you are referring to seems to be the Heinie Straight Eight. One dot on the front sight and one dot in the center of the rear sight just below the sight notch. Stack one dot on top of the other and you are aligned, then concentrate on the front sight. It's one of the best in my book.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:32 AM
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You are not alone in the three dot don't care for....some men who make a living shooting competition don't like them either and simply black them out . Testor's flat black model paint will take care of those pesky dots.
I , as you , shoot better with no dots and wide rear notch . My eye seems to center the front blade in a notch with a fair amount of space on each side .
Not all of us like dot's or shoot better with them.....Go back to what you like.
Gary
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:38 PM
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On my M&P40 I have to use sight picture 3 because sight picture 2 (which is the way I was brought up too) puts the bullets 2"-3" low at 10 yards. With my XD45 it's even worse but if I line up the dots, I get bullseye hits but I notice the top of the front blade is considerably higher than the top of the rear blade when the dots line up.

What really helped me was to shoot with both eyes open. This makes it easier to line up the dots rather than carefully lining up the tops of the sights which is normal when aiming with one eye. Funny thing is when I do this when raising the gun up my first shot is usually dead center of the bullseye. Since I also shoot skeet, it helps to keep reminding myself keep both eyes open and don't aim, just point like with shotgun shooting.
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:41 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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The only time I used a black iron sight for hunting was in 1982. Then, in the field I could not see the sights to make even an easy shot.
On the target range the same gun was great.
So based upon my experience if you are planning on using your gun in real-world not on the range use, good luck with black sights.
After that negative learning experience I only used brass or "silver" or red ramp white outline sights in the field. Eventually I got some of those fiber optic ones too.
Now many manufactures provide some type of contrast sights. Yet some do not.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
What a couple of you are referring to seems to be the Heinie Straight Eight. One dot on the front sight and one dot in the center of the rear sight just below the sight notch. Stack one dot on top of the other and you are aligned, then concentrate on the front sight. It's one of the best in my book.
or the Meprolight I-dot...there are lots of similar configurations with dot over dot.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:00 PM
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The three dots serve only one purpose; speed of sight acquisition. They are not intended to be used as an alignment device.

This is the correct sight picture for an M&P:



This is what an actual M&P looks like when sighting:



Notice how the dots don't appear to be the same size. Notice also that they don't line up when the tops of the sights are lined up.
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
...

This is what an actual M&P looks like when sighting:



Notice how the dots don't appear to be the same size. Notice also that they don't line up when the tops of the sights are lined up.
I have run into that on some other pistols. I end up doing a lot of painting etc so the tops of the sights are level at the same time the dots line up.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
What a couple of you are referring to seems to be the Heinie Straight Eight. One dot on the front sight and one dot in the center of the rear sight just below the sight notch. Stack one dot on top of the other and you are aligned, then concentrate on the front sight. It's one of the best in my book.
And the Heine sights are regulated so the point of aim/impact is at the top of the front sight, rather than under the front sight dot at about 10 yards. The front sight blade is narrow and the rear notch wide. It’s actually easier to align and allows more view of the target.

As mentioned, covering the point of impact is never a good idea. However the design of three dots was for speed not accuracy. They are defensive sites. In theory you line up three dots of the same size and spacing horizontally, and concentrating on the front sight (which was a big deal for quite a while even for defensive shooting), you cover the desired point of impact with the middle dot. It is supposed to yield “combat accuracy’. IOW, at combat ranges inside of 21 feet you could get fast center of mass hits.

There numerous problems with this sighting approach. Same size dots do not appear the same size when they are different distances from your eyes. In a true life and death gun battle your mind will focus on the threat, and only the threat. Thinking that you would look at the threat then lineup the front sight in the notch of the rear sight with three little dots, with funky different colors (more brain twisting processing) lined up horizontally
then check that you are pointed on target by focusing on it and then focus on the front sight (dot) placed on the out of focus target then pull the trigger so you could get a combat accurate hit fast is . . . well, silly. Not all mass manufactured OEM guns/sights deliver this POA/I shot placement. Many people’s eyes cannot handle this shifting focus routine. It is unnatural, especially for defensive shooting. It supposedly enhances a 200 year old sight system, but not IMO.

It can be made to work, but it takes a lot more effort than more modern sighting systems.

Sights are for accuracy. If they don’t deliver slow, accurate hits when practicing carefully at the range, they will be worse for combat. You don’t need sights at all for close range survival shooting. Point shooting gets the job done fast and accurately enough.

When you need sights you are shooting at longer ranges. You have a little more time to align sights more carefully. Covering the target with the sights is ridiculous. Combat accuracy, which mostly is an excuse for not being able to shoot accurately using proper fundamentals, is not going to work beyond about 7 yards.

Find the sights you can shoot well with for your needs. I find 3-dot OEM sights are a generic compromise that do nothing well.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:07 PM
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I used to have a few with the three dot system You have. I'm 73 and just got rid of a cataract and see quite well. I also got rid of the three dot guns and went back to black. I have been using the old sights since the mid 50's and like You I had a problem adapting. So I quit trying and I enjoy shooting My pistols a lot more now. Any body need some sight black?
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:12 PM
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All mine are Ameriglo, but same concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDog48 View Post
or the Meprolight I-dot...there are lots of similar configurations with dot over dot.
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:55 PM
NewToGuns17 NewToGuns17 is offline
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I enjoy a blacked out rear sight and a bright front sight. I had hiviz sights on my 2.0 full size that I put on myself and after running orange in back and green in front I put the black pins in the rear sight and loved the gun. Then I got used to the tritium sights on my shield and switched to those. They're not that bad.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:44 PM
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As has been pointed out, the 3 dot system/night sights are intended to give you a quick sight picture in conditions where the regular sights don't work well. Lack of contrast with the target, dim light, whatever.

There's nothing preventing you from ignoring the dots and concentrating on the top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight and equal light on both sides except your mind. Perhaps visualizing the dots as your mother in law might help?

Last edited by WR Moore; 10-19-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:56 PM
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I don't like standard sights any more because of my 71 yo eyes. So now I have a Vortex Viper on my M2.0C, slide milled by Primary Machine (primarymachine.com) No rear sight and a M&P CORE front sight. I painted a post on the back of the Viper and that co-witness just fine in case the red dot fails.
Not the best pic but you get the idea.

IMG_5532.JPG

IMG_5519.JPG

IMG_5523.JPG

Cheers

Philip

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Old 10-20-2018, 07:36 AM
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It is interesting reading through this thread. So many different sight options and and so many different opinions on which works best. The good thing is, in most cases, we can change our sights to get what we want.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:40 AM
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Interesting to note the commonality in this thread is that us old timers tend not to like the "new" 3 dot sites. My up close vision has gone to hell as well so I am in the market for a new set of sites myself.

I really like the concept of laser sites but they have to many negatives for a defensive sidearm IMO. They can die on due to batteries or just plain failure of the laser device. They add weight and bulk hindering concealability. Adding them would also require replacing existing holsters, another added expense.

I'll have to check out the 8 ball i.e.; dot over dot style sites. Is there a clear brand/model that is superior in this type of site or are they all pretty much the same?
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:31 AM
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Switched mine to I dot and am now a happy camper.
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:08 PM
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Black out the rear dots and try it. Personally, I prefer a black adjustable rear and a FO front.
Wider rear notch or slightly narrower front blade helps tremendously, especially in low light.
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:51 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Before spending money on sights as mentioned in this post. Consider renting different handguns with different sights and see what works for you.
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2018, 08:33 PM
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Years ago I had a Walther PP. the front sight had a white dot; there was a vertical white post under the rear. One simply “dotted the i” and you were aligned. I don’t know if Walther does this, or any other manufacturer.
I have seen similar sights on older revolvers.

Perhaps this pattern will help.
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:57 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Per post 7.
My experience over the last 10 years or so.
All of my three dot factory sights use sight picture 3. They are not elevation adjustable but windage adjustable adjusting the rear sight.
Three dot factory oem sight picture 3. When shooting the target and front sight are in focus but the rear are not so crispness of the dot or gap is not that clear. I use the Jeff Cooper style flash sight picture, so I really never hold the gun on target very long.
Walther pps m1
SIG p238 SIG night sights.
Glock 26 gen 3 OEM steel nightsights.
Springfield Armory 1911 45 acp mil spec.
Springfield Armory 1911 45 acp stainless loaded 5 in barrel.

After market three dot
Trij orange front green rear on the Glock 19 gen 3.

I do not own a s&w 9mm m&p but have shot them. I used sight picture three. Seem to work poa poi ok.

With my glocks and SA 1911 I had no problem hitting poa poi at 15 30 and 50 yd outdoor target.
My practice with any new or new to me gun is to use a bench and sandbag. Carefully set up sight picture 3 at 7 yd. Shoot some rounds and see how they are regulated.
All of mine were setup for sight picture 3the only rifle that had sort of six o'clock hold was a 1891 arg Mauser. But that was sighted in for 300 meter so at 50 to 100 yds it sort of acted like a six o'clock hold.
I used sight picture two with it.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 10-20-2018 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:56 AM
CBStuard CBStuard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye Dick View Post
...
I really like the concept of laser sites but they have to many negatives for a defensive sidearm IMO. They can die on due to batteries or just plain failure of the laser device. They add weight and bulk hindering concealability. Adding them would also require replacing existing holsters, another added expense...
You really owe it to your self to try a laser. We have Crimson Trace on all guns that might be used defensively. It does depend what pistol and therefore which type of laser is available as to whether you need a different holster or not. If it hangs on the rail you probably need another holster. If it is a laser grip
Laser Sight for Smith & Wesson M&P Compact LG661 | Official Crimson Trace
like I have on my M&Pc, your existing holster will be fine.BTW CTC will send you new battery once per year FREE.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:11 AM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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I put the crimson trace boot grip red laser on my S&W 60-14. It works great.
I kept the factory black front sight.
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2018, 04:06 PM
walkin' trails walkin' trails is offline
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I used 3-dot tritiums for years until I discovered Heinie Straigh 8s. Frankly, it wasn't the single dot of the rear sight as it was the serrated front sight that I preferred. Pistols are going to have a different point of impact if aiming with the dots as opposed to the traditional method. I think the 3-dot is more of a gimmick than useful, but that's what the shooting public as a whole seems to think is desirable.

As my eyes age, I sort of jumped onto the big orange front dot bandwagon on all of my carry pistols. Not perfect, but being able to find my front sight rapidly and place it on the center mass of a target at CQB range is more important to me than PPC precision at distance. On my Shield, I took a black Sharpie to the rear sight dots, leaving the white front dot. It works fairly well.

Dawson, Warren (Sevigny), and possibly 10-8 Performance make narrower-than-.125 plain front sights (.115) - check their websites.

Last edited by walkin' trails; 10-21-2018 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:44 PM
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It is interesting to read others opinions and approach about sights.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 10-21-2018 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 06:13 PM
Farmer17 Farmer17 is online now
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I like big, plain black sights but if they have dots that doesn't bother me I just ignore them for precision shooting. For low light I do like the 3 dots better than other designs but the rear dots should be smaller in diameter and a different color than the front dot. I never really liked tritium because they start dimming after a few years and they were never really that bright to begin with.
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer17 View Post
I like big, plain black sights but if they have dots that doesn't bother me I just ignore them for precision shooting. For low light I do like the 3 dots better than other designs but the rear dots should be smaller in diameter and a different color than the front dot. I never really liked tritium because they start dimming after a few years and they were never really that bright to begin with.
A man after my own heart. I like plain black sights, but I find them hard to acquire quickly. So, all my guns have 3 dot sights. The dots make them much easier to pick up quickly. The dots get the sights in my vision and for precision I align the tops.
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