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  #1  
Old 06-02-2020, 10:15 PM
robnkivseries70 robnkivseries70 is offline
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Default New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.

Hi All,
New guy here and my first new S&W in ages. I took delivery on a new 9mm EZ and got it out the range today. It functioned perfectly but was about a foot low at 25 yards. I really don't want to return it, so I am looking for an after market front sight that is shorter and narrower. What else fits the cut in the slide for the front sight. Thanks!
Best,
Rob
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:18 PM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Default Sight adjustments needed?

What ammo are you using? How are you shooting the gun? 1 hand, 2 hand, off a rest, etc?
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:47 PM
robnkivseries70 robnkivseries70 is offline
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Thanks for the reply, It was older ammo but I will state it wasn't that wimpy feeling. I shot the same ammo in something else and the group was satisfactory. 2 handed and I felt in control, I traded a Ruger LC9s so there is not much difference in size. Thanks for the reply, any help appreciated. I haven't had a new S&W since I bought a M19 back in the early 70s

Best,
Rob
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Old 06-03-2020, 05:45 AM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Are you positioning the front sight dot over the target or trying to use the old traditional six o'clock hold. In my experience modern pistols are sighted to use the first technique commonly called combat sighting.
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Old 06-03-2020, 06:10 AM
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Rob, if you were shooting 115 grain ammo that is likly the reason you were shooting low. You may want to try 124 and 147 grain loads to determine what weight bullets your sights are regulated for.

BTW, both of my Ruger LC9S Pro's are regulated for 147 grain loads. If I need to get some once fired cases I'll shoot off some boxes of Remington UMC 115 grain and place the front sight higher in the rear sight notch to adjust for the lighter bullet.
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:41 AM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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I have seen many of these small pistols shoot 3, 4 even 5 inches low (or high) but a foot is pretty extreme.

As said above, make sure you are covering the middle of the target with the front sight dot, not holding under it.

It's possible you are trying to anticipate recoil and pulling the pistol down when firing. Have someone else load the gun and hand it to you, and every so often not chamber a round.
If you are anticipating recoil and pulling down it will be apparent when you click on an empty chamber.

Next, as scooter mentioned, if you are shooting that low, forget 115 grain, and even 124 grain, and shoot only 147 grain ammo.
The heavier, slower bullet will impact higher on the target.

If those things still have not taken care of the low groups, you'll need a lower front sight. Dawson Precision has a formula that will help you determine which of their replacement sights will be needed to bring your groups up.
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:49 AM
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After you find your load file off the top of the front sight to raise the point of impact. IMHO that's why they make them with a high front sight blade.
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:49 AM
robnkivseries70 robnkivseries70 is offline
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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As far as the target is concerned, I want the point of impact to match point of aim. It would seem to me that a "6 oclock hold" would depend upon the diameter of the bull, if you are going to score hits in the X ring.



Regarding bullet weights, everything was 115 gr. I have some 124 gr ball around here somewhere, it will be up next. Any comments on replacement front sights.



I've never had any experience with 147 gr. 9mm loads, seems like they would be slow in the short barrel.


Thanks,

Rob

Last edited by robnkivseries70; 06-03-2020 at 08:53 AM. Reason: further replies
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Old 06-03-2020, 09:14 AM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnkivseries70 View Post
I've never had any experience with 147 gr. 9mm loads, seems like they would be slow in the short barrel.
FWIW, my EDC is a Beretta PX4 Compact, which has a shorter barrel than your EZ. I carry Federal 147gr HST and use Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ for practice. No issues with either load.

Another thing to consider. Not all handgun sights are regulated at 25yds. 15yds is pretty common, but I can't say if that's the distance your gun was regulated for. And I can't say if that difference alone could account for the low groups you're getting. You may want to shoot an e-mail to S&W customer service and ask them. I did that for my 642, and they told me its sights were regulated for 7yds.

Have you tried having someone you know is a good marksman try shooting your gun and ammo at the same distance?
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:25 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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We see a lot of these posts since the M&P series came out. The major issue here is almost always your management of the trigger, which at least in the 1.0 full size, was much more similar to a double action revolver than most "other" semi-auto designs.

When we did transition training from 3rd generation S&Ws to the M&P 1.0 series we also had the low point of impact issue initially. Once the trigger was learned these disappeared. From personal experience I can assure you that swapping back and forth between trigger systems only demonstrates that you've learned to manage the "other" system but not the M&P trigger.

Looking at the sights, given the sight radius of a 1911 (~7 inches) a change of sight 0.005 inches would give about 1 inch of impact change at 25 yards. A shorter sight radius moves the point of impact further. However, if we take the initial adjustment, moving the point of impact 1 foot at 25 yards means wacking 0.060 inches off your front sight. Taking a guess given the shorter sight radius, probably 0.040 inches would probably be in that ball park. That's absurd.

I'd strongly suggest a lot of dry fire while paying very close attention to your front sight. I expect part of your problem may be over travel of the M&P trigger after sear release. It probably was mine.

As to width of your front sight, perhaps the easier/cheaper method of getting more light through your sights is opening up the notch in the rear sight. I can sympathize, I've opened a lot of rear sight notches myself.

Last edited by WR Moore; 06-03-2020 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 06-03-2020, 10:26 AM
robnkivseries70 robnkivseries70 is offline
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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HI All,
I finally ran the sight height calculator. It seems I'd have to knock off .078 in. off the front sight and there wouldn't be much left. The next thing will be to get to the range again with some different ammo. I'll post back with a report.
Thanks,
Rob
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:36 PM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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If this sounds naïve please forgive me guys and gals BUT these are for self defense primarily; 5 - 8 feet sounds more appropriate rather than checking at even 15 yards. IMO.
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Old 06-03-2020, 01:04 PM
robnkivseries70 robnkivseries70 is offline
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnkivseries70 View Post
HI All,
I finally ran the sight height calculator. It seems I'd have to knock off .078 in. off the front sight and there wouldn't be much left. The next thing will be to get to the range again with some different ammo. I'll post back with a report.
Thanks,
Rob

I made a quick range trip this AM. My best information is, Sights & Trigger Sights & Trigger, Sights & Trigger. I spent quite some time working on the sights and trigger control. I got some confidence back using the range bag as a rest. While I'm not perfect, there was much improvement. One good indication was the correction of a small windage change I had made yesterday. I put it down to the new piece, sights, trigger and that my attention was divided yesterday. As they say,'The good soldier doesn't blame his equipment." Thanks to everyone who offered help. I need to practice more often!
Best,
Rob
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Old 06-03-2020, 01:15 PM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnkivseries70 View Post
As far as the target is concerned, I want the point of impact to match point of aim. It would seem to me that a "6 oclock hold" would depend upon the diameter of the bull, if you are going to score hits in the X ring.



Regarding bullet weights, everything was 115 gr. I have some 124 gr ball around here somewhere, it will be up next. Any comments on replacement front sights.



I've never had any experience with 147 gr. 9mm loads, seems like they would be slow in the short barrel.


Thanks,

Rob
You need to shoot the gun from a rest to understand exactly what the gun is doing.

Most self defense pistols are set up to use the combat hold. such as shown in example 3.

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Old 06-03-2020, 01:58 PM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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I also purchased the EZ 9mm and it does shoot low at first. I finally figured out I was bringing my head to the sights, not the sights to my eyes. It was causing my aim to be lower than normal. I’ve never experienced this before with any weapon, I don’t know if it’s the ergonomics or the grip safety or what, but 250 rounds later I am vastly improved over my initial outing.

Last edited by 13bentarm; 06-03-2020 at 02:20 PM. Reason: More info
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 505Gibbs View Post
If this sounds naïve please forgive me guys and gals BUT these are for self defense primarily; 5 - 8 feet sounds more appropriate rather than checking at even 15 yards. IMO.
While the average distance for private citizen shootings is 5 yards, the extremes are 2 yards and 27 yards. This is from a number of incidents, approaching 100, where circumstances were determined by police investigation and/or surveilance video. Admittedly, at 27 yards your first priority probably ought to be seeking cover or escape, but you might not have those options.

Assuming your incident is going to be at bad breath range is not a good idea. Old Uniform Crime Report stats show that at the ranges you cite the shootings are ambush shootings by bad folks and the win rate of the good folks are around 10%. This is because the bad folks know there's gonna be a shooting and get their licks in first.
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:39 PM
robnkivseries70 robnkivseries70 is offline
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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I see my last message has not been posted yet.
Best,
Rob
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Old 06-03-2020, 03:49 PM
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If you align all dots equally across, my 9mm EZ shot low. I painted the front sight yellow (covering the miss drilled front white dot) and my groups shot POA=POI using Federal HST 124 gr bullets. There was a very long thread on this subject back in December 19 of 2019 “First range trip Shield 9mm EZ”.
I plan to replace the factory sights with night sights at some point.

UPDATED 6/19

Picture 3 is lining up all 3 dots in a even row.
Picture 4 is with lining up the top of front sight with back sight
(Therefore the need to paint the front sight and black out the dots
on the rear sight).

Last edited by Execpro; 06-19-2021 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 06-03-2020, 04:13 PM
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Dawson Precision is my favorite source for S&W M&P sights.
Dawson Precision S&W M&P Shield Fiber Optic Front Sights - Dawson Precision, Inc.

Getting the factory sights out is a ROYAL PIA!!! #@#*&%$

fyi: My 9mm EZ review
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Old 06-03-2020, 04:25 PM
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I would first look at the weakest link in the system. It isn't the gun or ammo. Shooting low is usually an indication of anticipation of recoil. It isn't easy to determine by shooting, but can become obvious with ball and dummy exercises. I think shooting at 25 yards is absolutely a good distance to determine your sight settings and accuracy. Even if you are a good pistolero, sometimes a new system (especially trigger) takes a while to master.
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Old 06-03-2020, 04:35 PM
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I think you should send S&W cust. service an e-mail....they will have some ideas, they helped me out
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Old 06-03-2020, 06:11 PM
robnkivseries70 robnkivseries70 is offline
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Hi All,
I had a reply typed out and posted and got an email saying it had to be approved. Anyhow, I went to the range this AM and realized what I needed to know,"sights and trigger" !. I got good groups but had to pay strict attention to the sights and trigger. (I think I said that.) OKFC05's review post was spot on with what I had been experiencing. Everything about this piece is right other wise, the grip is good, the sights while a bit narrow for low light look great, the trigger has great potential, it's all there. Using the range bag as a rest gave me some confidence back and I started to do a bit better. The sights seem closest at 12-15 yds. Thanks everyone for your help!
Best,
Rob


@OKFC05 which model Dawson Precision sight did you install, I want to do the front sight?

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Old 06-03-2020, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnkivseries70 View Post
I haven't had a new S&W since I bought a M19 back in the early 70s

Best,
Rob
And I now own that Model 19!!

Rob and I were shooting buddies going back to high school. He knows which end the bullet comes out of.

We've been promising each other that we'd reconnect after retiring. We have a lot of shooting to catch up on.
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:38 AM
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@OKFC05 which model Dawson Precision sight did you install, I want to do the front sight?

I put FO fronts on Shield and M&P .22. My full size Pros come with FO. Dawson will help you get what you want if you ask. They are very helpful.
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Old 06-09-2020, 12:13 PM
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I don't know what it is about S&W shooting low, I shoot & carry 3rd gens, and some of those shot low also.
I use DAO guns from S&W (3914DAO, 3953, 6946) and Ruger, and shooting that long heavy trigger really points out any problems in trigger control and maintaining a sight picture.
There are a lot of good points in this thread, but the one thing I've found that doesn't help is having someone else shoot the gun to see where they hit. In my experience, this just adds another human-induced uncertainty.
And in my mind, before I start replacing sights on the gun, I want to know what the actual situation is. Not that upgrading sights is a bad thing, but I want to know what I'm actually trying to correct. And, I don't want to make a correction to the gun to cover my bad trigger control, flinch, or sight picture. To make valid corrections, you have to take out the human factor.

To solve my problems, here's what's worked for me:

1. Get a laser bore sight and see where the bore axis is in relation to the sight axis. If this is way off, the gun simply won't be accurate. Bore sighting will help you tell if the inaccuracy is the gun or you.
I simply insert the bore sight in the chamber, clamp the gun in a wooden furniture clamp, line up the sights on a target, and then measure where the laser dot lands. I then make a repair or upgrade as appropriate. I like to set my guns up so that the bore axis and sight axis are parallel. There is some difference of opinion on this setting, but that's what works for me.
These things aren't expensive ($30) and are cheaper than shooting off boxes of ammo chasing a problem.
Midway USA and others carry these:Sightmark Laser Bore Sight 25-06 Remington 270 Winchester 30-06

2. I have become a real believer in laser training cartridges for dry fire practice. They really help with improving trigger control and maintaining a sight picture. And I can practice in my basement and get 100 "shots" in with no cost and little time. I can practice everything from slow fire to drawing to a shot with this thing.
Basically, they are like the bore sight except there is a switch in the back of the unit that is activated by the firing pin. When the firing pin hits the switch, the laser projects a dot for few tenths of a second so you can see where the gun was pointed when it "fired". It's amazing to see what you're actually doing when you pull the trigger. I've made a huge amount of progress in a short amount of time, and I can't recommend it enough. It's not the same as real range time, but boy do they help! They range from about $30 to $60 depending on the quality of the unit. And, you don't need the fancy systems they sell, I just aim at a piece of paper with a stick-on dot on the wall. This is the one I am currently using:ALL NEW ELMS 9mm Laser Cartridge (Gen 3)
– G-Sight


3. Another thing that's helpful is find a good online ballistic calculator and actually see what the differences in POI actually are at different ranges. For self defense ranges, say under 25 yards, the differences between point of impact are insignificant between different bullets of the same caliber.
So, I've stopped worrying about perceived differences in POI, my main focus is now on tactics, shoot/no-shoot, avoiding the fight, absolute ammunition reliability, and bullet performance. While .07" may be important to the bullseye shooter, it's well within "minute of bad guy" accuracy.
Here's the one I use (there are others out there), it's a little clunky and takes some getting used to. But it does give you usable information. Ballistic Calculator GunData.org

So, that's what's worked for me, your mileage may vary.
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Old 06-13-2020, 10:17 PM
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Are you positioning the front sight dot over the target or trying to use the old traditional six o'clock hold. In my experience modern pistols are sighted to use the first technique commonly called combat sighting.
I agree with Sheppard. It is my understanding with combat sighting you place the top of the front sight at the vertical center of the target, and don't use the old six o'clock hold "lollipop" technique.

I have the 9EZ and with the combat sighting my shots are dead center vertically, at least at the 10 yards I was shooting.

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Old 06-13-2020, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Classic Radio99 View Post

2. I have become a real believer in laser training cartridges for dry fire practice. They really help with improving trigger control and maintaining a sight picture. And I can practice in my basement and get 100 "shots" in with no cost and little time. I can practice everything from slow fire to drawing to a shot with this thing.
Basically, they are like the bore sight except there is a switch in the back of the unit that is activated by the firing pin. When the firing pin hits the switch, the laser projects a dot for few tenths of a second so you can see where the gun was pointed when it "fired". It's amazing to see what you're actually doing when you pull the trigger. I've made a huge amount of progress in a short amount of time, and I can't recommend it enough. It's not the same as real range time, but boy do they help! They range from about $30 to $60 depending on the quality of the unit. And, you don't need the fancy systems they sell, I just aim at a piece of paper with a stick-on dot on the wall. This is the one I am currently using:ALL NEW ELMS 9mm Laser Cartridge (Gen 3)
– G-Sight



So, that's what's worked for me, your mileage may vary.
That ELMS Laser Cartridge is pretty cool and would be great for training as you said. I checked the website and the training video does a great job of explaining how it works in conjunction with the APP you download (for free)
They have them on Amazon for $41.

Last edited by MTC(SS)Ret; 06-13-2020 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 06-14-2020, 07:27 AM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Didn't read the entire thread. But my question is; "why on earth are you practicing with a defensive pistol at 25 yards?" Just curious.
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Old 06-14-2020, 10:08 AM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDSTER View Post
Didn't read the entire thread. But my question is; "why on earth are you practicing with a defensive pistol at 25 yards?" Just curious.
The real question is why aren't you?
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Old 06-14-2020, 11:32 PM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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I bought my M&P 9 mm, went to the range and started shooting at 25 metres. I could not even find one single hole in the target but destroyed some brackets in the target frames, far below the aiming point. Then it dawned on me, I was using the sights like I always used them, top of the front sight level with the top of the rear sight. WRONG. The M&P has three dots, one in the front and two in the rear sight. Try that next time, I bet it will be spot on. Using three dot sights for the first time always gets shooters. New system, learning curve, habit forming.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:23 AM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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I took my new EZ 9 to the range yesterday, only the 2nd time I've shot it due to limited range access. I tend to stay in the 6-10 yard distances with this, same I did with my PC Shield.
But for fun i tried a couple rounds at 25 yds. I didnt expect anything and i got what I expected lol. At 25 yds with my ****** eyes, seeing a 6” target is quite difficult anyway. And I now shoot with a thumb/wrist brace on my off hand and still not used to it. That said, standing with both hands holding it, i had 1 actually hit dead center (luck my friends, luck) and 2 others just off the target. So basically 3 rounds in a 7” group. I dont put any blame on the gun; as stated i personally dont expect a short barrel to do well at longer distances, at least in my hands and with my limitations. In fact I’d say the EZ is quite capable. Just my .02
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Old 06-19-2021, 08:31 PM
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New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds. New 9mm EZ shooting very low at 25 yds.  
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I used a rest to test different ammo through the EZ. Was interesting to see the differences at our 7 yard mark.
Federal White Box 115gr shot low 4-5 inches sprayed in a 5 inch circle.
Exp-Ammo 115 1/2 - 1 1/2 low. 2 inch group

Fiocci 115 1200 fps 1 1/2-2 1/2 low 3 inch spread

PMC 115 1150 fps 1 - 1 3/4 in a 2.5 inch group
BELOM 124 1/4-1 1/4 in a 1 inch group. Best of the bunch.


This is what I could get at the local gun shops. Exp-ammo is in Dallas.
I was disgusted with the White Box stuff. I'll give it to someone with a different gun to see how it performs for them. My EZ hates it.


I'm going to stick with 124 gr as long as I can find it. A little pricier locally and imported, but some mail order places have it just fine. Either aim a little higher or get a Dawson front sight that is shorter.
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