I was thrilled when S&W first announced the 10mm M&P. Unfortunately, purchasing that pistol was the start of an unending nightmare I'll do my best to condense a long story. Video documentation can be found in a link at the end of this post.

As soon I got the pistol in mid-December, I took it straight from the gun counter to the range. My enthusiasm for the pistol was dashed when it ejected the magazine under recoil. No, I didn't accidentally hit the magazine release. Ammo used was a mix of S&B 180gr JHP and Underwood 220gr hardcasts. The uncommanded magazine ejections happened repeatedly and with both magazines that came with the pistol.

I sent the pistol (and its magazines) back to S&W within a few days, per their instructions. I described the problem in detail and specified which ammo I was using. The pistol and mags were returned to me in early February, with a note saying that no repairs had been performed because they couldn't replicate the problem I was having.

I immediately tested the pistol experienced the exact same problem as before, and this time I took videos (see below).

Once again, I sent the pistol and mags back to S&W, per their instructions. Once again, I included a note that the described the problem, ammo used, etc. And I begged them not to send an unrepaired pistol back to me a second time -- I offered to share the videos with them (they weren't interested), and I really went out of my way to offer any information that might help them to diagnose the problem and fix the pistol.

The pistol and mags were returned to me in early March -- once again, with no repairs, and the magazine-ejecting problem persisting. And once again I got it on video.

I called S&W. This time they speculated that there might be a problem with my magazines (which had already been back to the factory twice). They told me to send those magazines back in exchange for new ones. This didn't make much sense to me: it seems unlikely that I would have *two* faulty magazines, and besides, wouldn't this have been tested on the magazines' two trips back to the factory already?

But S&W wasn't willing to consider any other remedial action, so I sent my magazines back to the factory for a *third* time. The magazines arrived on 3/14, and, two weeks later, I still hadn't received word of new magazines being shipped out to me. So, I called them up today to figure out what was going on.

This time, the customer service rep latched onto the 220gr Underwood hardcasts as being the cause of the problem I experienced. There are three problems with that:
1. I have made S&W aware of the ammo I have been using since the start of this process in December. *If* the ammo is of concern, why wasn't that addressed months ago?
2. Underwood explicitly markets their 10mm ammo as falling within SAAMI pressure specs, and M&P 10mm pistols are supposed to be able to run SAAMI 10mm ammo. (See here: Please Wait... | Cloudflare )
3. I'm currently unable to test my gun with other ammo because, per S&W's instructions, I sent my magazines back to them, and they have not sent me the magazines that they owe me

I'm really at a loss. This has been an absolute nightmare, and I'm not sure what else to do at this point. I'm open to suggestions.

https://twitter.com/marklivesthings/...85575168937989

Update: Since making this thread, I've found several cases of other people experiencing the same problem. I'll link each one I find below.
S&W M&P 10mm Pistols: Prevalence of the Magazine Drop Malfunction | by Mark Houser | Aug, 2022 | Medium

Welcome to the Forum.

I don't see you touching the magazine release in the videos, so that explanation is out.

Do you firmly tug on the base plate after you insert the magazine to insure that it is fully seated and latched? A falsely seated magazine can be more of a problem when shooting plus-one. It takes a pretty firm palm smack to get my mags properly seated in my M&Ps with a plus-one load.

I don't know if your model has a trigger over-travel adjustment screw, but if it does and it's not properly adjusted, it can interfere with the magazine latch operation.

It's outrageous that S&W cannot get you replacement mags in a timely manner.

Let us know how it eventually works out. Good Luck!

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What, me worry?

Yep, magazine is absolutely fully seated and "clicked" in. The first time it happened, I naturally assumed I must not have fully seated the magazine -- I *wish* this problem could be attributed to such a simple mistake, that would have saved me a lot of trouble. But that's definitely not the culprit, unfortunately.

How about trying a more normal 10mm ammo like 165gr.fed or hornady not underwoods ammo first after you cleaned well inspected and lubed that new pistol . What comes on them new is not lube but a preservative

You might even hand that 10mm pistol to a shooting buddy and let him shoot it with ammo of his choice .

Maybe all handguns should be able to fire all saami spec ammo but thats not always the case ether . S&B is one that causes lots of problems in different cartridges .

First thing I would have done was to remove the mag catch and see how well it fit a mag !! Measure bother where they engage too . Then reassembled with slide removed I would watched how the mag with no spring or follower fit and lock together then with the spring and follower and with a loaded mag and no slide still . If the mag catch is slightly long a bullet might touch it and cause the mag to fall free . You can check this much as a novice .

After reading this, I'm sooooo glad I passed up the 10mm and bought the M&P45. Sounds like dealing with S&W customer service is like dealing with Taurus CS.

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I was testing the pistol with the sort of ammo I want and reasonably expect a 10mm pistol to be able run. If a 10mm pistol is only able to run light ammo, there's no point to it -- a .40 would be more practical in that case, and I already have .40s.

It's incredible how bad it has been. I'm so disappointed. I have tons of S&W guns, and I *had* a lot of brand loyalty, before they put me through this.

Exactly. It’s not a “10mm” pistol. It’s a fake wannabe “10mm” pistol.

A solid, well-engineered 10mm pistol should be able to run reliably shooting all levels of 10mm factory ammo with, at worst, a recoil spring swap. A super-stiff spring that handles the full-power UW/DT/BB-type loads (and equivalent handloads) might be too stiff to reliably cycle the diluted 40-level stuff.

Conversely, the consensus across the various gun-boards (thus far) seems to be that the 10mm M&Ps are under-sprung right out of the box, ... something S&W’s R&D folks should’ve caught IF they’d actually studied the 10mm cartridge in all its different energy levels and bullet-weights - which basically consists of three levels or ranges:

(1) the watered-down, .40-duplicating junk ammo range (e.g., FBI-Lite - 180grns @ 980fps);

(2) the mid-to-upper midrange ammo (e.g., Sig’s 180grn @ 1250/Hornady 180grn XTP @ 1275fps);

(3) the high-performance to full-power/max range ammo (e.g., UW/DT/BB - 180grns @ 1350fps+).

All three ranges, of course, include equivalent-power reloads.

That said, there also seems to be a consensus that more problems are being/have been encountered with the 4” M&P model than with the 4.6” model.

Maybe the longer slide & barrel has something to do with it (?).

I hate to hear this. I had considered buying on of these, but I'll stick with what I have for the time being.

How many rounds are you loading in the mag? How are you loading the first round in the chamber?

Mine's a 4.6, FWIW. It doesn't seem to have any problems cycling -- unfortunately, with the mag falling out after 1 - 3 shots, there's not much for it to cycle...

Full mag, chambering from magazine. So 14+1.

If the magazines are locked in place as Mark reports, it shouldn't matter to magazine retention how many rounds were in them although a full magazine exerts more pressure on the magazine release. I don't see how loading the first round would matter. From what Mark has reported, I think the problem is not with him or how he manipulates the pistol.

I'm disappointed that S&W hasn't fixed this. Terrible customer service.

If I may here, the above is one of those reasons not to be one of the first to jump on a new product. While new products are carefully designed and tested, they're generally tool room products or very early pre-production versions. Additionally, there's no testing program that's going to reproduce the wide variables that the general public (and actual production) is going to present.

Back in 1992 I was issued an early production 1006 (along with everyone else working there) and had random extraction issues. IIRC, there were about 3 different sets of extractor springs by the time everyone's problems were solved. Possibly a couple different extractors. I'd have to go find the official parts book to confirm.

Of course there's a risk to being an earlier adopter of anything, but 1) somebody's gotta do it and 2) it's the company's responsibility to fix the problems that the early adopters bring to the company's attention.

My grievance is not that the pistol is defective. My grievance is that I still have a defective pistol after three months, two trips back to factory, and countless hours spent trying to get S&W to fix my gun.

I'm sorry to read about your troubles. For me, over nearly five decades now, S&W CS has always been problematic. Sometimes great, sometimes "hang up now!" Overall, I guess I have been treated pretty well, but those bad examples do tend to stick in one's mind. Some people just should not be allowed to try to handle customer service.

Getting back to the nature of the post, yes, absolutely - any respectable 10mm pistol needs to handle full-power 10mm loads. For me, that is a 200 at 1200, which I believe is the original "intent" of the 10mm round. I've heard through the years that the Norma 200 gr. FMJ-FN load was actually closer to 1150, so I guess I'd be happy with that, but certainly nothing less. 10mm gallery loads are fine and dandy for whatever use people may have for them, but the pistol should be able to operate like a true 10mm.

I hope S&W gets things sorted out soon. I'd like to buy one of these guns (4.6", or preferably 5", with safety, and normal height sights) but for now, I'm on the sidelines.

I'll throw this out there, too: this seems to be a problem with my pistol in particular, not a general defect of the M&P 10mm line. I've searched, but haven't seen reports of this happening to other people. (Edit: no longer true -- I've found lots of reports now)

I'm totally understanding of the fact that, when a company is churning out thousands of pistols, some will have defects. That's inevitable.

What I can't accept is the way that this problem has been handled (well...*not* handled) from a customer service perspective.

Bummer to hear S&W's customer service continues to inhale vigorously, and sorry about your pistol. That's a really weird malfunction.

I bought a Glock 20 recently, but was presented with a pretty good deal on a MP10. My previous poor S&W customer service and QC experiences kept me sticking to my original plan, and im glad I did.

Shouldn't there be a minimum number of posts before you can start complaining?

All excellent advice that the OP seems to have skipped over.

I don't put that requirement on mine. More (a lot more) range ammo gets shot than nuclear loads. I have a G29 and while the stock spring will work with full power 10 mm the brass gets ejected into the next county. I'd rather not batter the frame with that kind of slide velocity so I have a stiffer spring for the full power stuff.

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To cannon, all men are equal

A few things:
-10mm ammo isn't exactly cheap or easily accessible these days. What would be the point of buying a bunch of expensive, light ammo that I have no intention of ever using in the field and testing my gun with that? Even if my pistol functioned fine with that ammo, that wouldn't solve or diagnose my problem: it would remain an intolerable issue that my pistol can't handle heavier ammo. Again, there's literally no point to a 10mm if you're only going to shoot light ammo through it -- if that's the kind of ammo you want to shoot, a .40 is a much more practical choice.

-This customer service experience is already miserable, but I imagine it would be going even worse if I had attempted to play gunsmith. I'm certainly not a gunsmith, and I'm sure I'd get blamed for any problems my pistol has if I'd started taking it apart beyond field stripping.

Is there something wrong with this thread??

And S&W as well. Should the OP have to troubleshoot the problem for S&W? Are they going to listen to him if he finds the problem?

I've sent a revolver back with a problem. (Cylinder scuffing the forcing cone.) I also wanted them to do their Master Revolver Package (MRP) on it.

After several weeks I called them to find out if they fixed the problem. The response from the employee: I don't understand it, they should have sent you a letter explaining the problem and the cost to fix it. This took two calls to get a letter.

Once I got the pistol back it had the MRP done, but the cylinder still scuffed the forcing cone. Sent it back again with the same result. (Multiple calls.) They knew where it was, but didn't know the status, or why it wasn't fixed. (Same song, different verse.)

Finally got it back and it's ok now.

That's another frustrating part of this: they have decidedly *not* listened to me at any point in this process. They're not even reading the information that I was told to provide to them, and they're even less curious (if that's possible) about other information I've offered to share, such as the videos.

It's truly maddening.

I would replace the magazine catch. Unfortunately I cannot find one on the www. There is a used .45 part on eBay. For $5 + $4.50 it might be worth a try; the warranty clerk obviously does not know what is going on.

And that’s very sad to hear.

Especially since this isn’t S&W’s first rodeo with the 10mm AUTO.

Over time, their 10XX-series pistols were generally considered the best all-steel semi-autos in that caliber ever made, maybe excluding certain 1911-platform 10mms.

No one should have to gunsmith a brand new handgun . If it fails to fire and cycle properly from the git go it is a lemon and should be returned as one. And if a new handgun design is problematic, it will certainly show up in the first batches before production revision.
Smith has some EZ on recall right now, with a very serious problem:

M&P SHIELD® EZ® PISTOL IMPORTANT SAFETY RECALL NOTICE FOR PISTOLS MANUFACTURED BETWEEN MARCH 1ST, 2020 AND OCTOBER 31ST, 2020

Smith & Wesson has identified two M&P Shield EZ Pistols on which the hammers manufactured by our supplier were cracked. In those firearms, the hammer failed to fully engage the sear, causing the round to fire, cycling the slide, and potentially resulting in multiple discharges without depressing the trigger.

I don't understand ragging on Mark for all the things he should have done or tried from different ammo to tinkering with the gun to waiting a year to buy it. S&W should have sold him a functioning handgun and when they did not, they should have done everything possible to fix it. His point is good that if he had worked on the pistol, it might have voided the apparently worthless warranty.

I don't think there is or should be a minimum number of posts before "you can complain." I have read much more vitriolic diatribes from members here with with hundreds of posts. Mark has been respectful and low key given the level of frustration he must feel. If this is not a place one can discuss S&W failures, where do you suggest he go?

As a matter of fact - YES. Pretty obvious from the lack of results that it is prudent for the user to put some effort (and common sense) into debugging the problem.
Why do so many newbies think that complaining on a forum is a substitute for individual responsibility?

Having said that, the OP should:

1. Get someone else to shoot the pistol
2. Try some different ammo

Neither of those things will fix my gun.

Also, something I said on Twitter that bears repeating here: I gave S&W every opportunity to fix this before I complained about it publicly and posted the videos. The only reason that I'm going public with this is that I don't have any other options at this point. I just want my problem taken seriously and addressed, and I'm done being gaslighted or blown off with various excuses.

Sorry about your problems. My coworker owns one and has not had one issue with his various handloads. Can you fire the gun leaving your forefinger off the grip? Run your video in slow motion and see if there is any contact with the mag release and your forefinger. Any contact might be causing the problem.
I cannot get the slide to lock back on my P365 unless I shoot it lin my left hand.

I'm sorry, I don't follow -- that's my trigger finger. (?)

I understand that, but the problem is that if THEY can't reproduce the problem, it's most difficult for them to fix it. The only way the multiple sets of extractor springs for the 1000 series came about was multiple complaints. Possibly including having samples that demonstrated the problem at the factory.

When we adopted the M&P40 some folks had a similar problem. For most it wasn't the gun, it was something in their grip and it was a trial and error thing to discover it as it wasn't readily visible. There was a redesigned mag catch introduced later. Perhaps there will be here.

Added material: I've no idea what passes for 10 mm ammo from major manufacturers these days, but it'd be what S&W used in development and test firing. You might ask and try some. As others have noted, using boutique ammo (OK, S&B isn't boutique, but everyone has the occasional bad batch) and then blaming the gun has it's own problems. What YOU think the gun should run with wasn't a design factor. Have you by any chance contacted S&B?

LOL! Yes, guns aren’t known to fire without proper trigger manipulation ... which, typically, involves that particular digit known as the “trigger finger.”

Mark, have you in fact asked another experienced pistol shooter (or two, or three) to give your gun a try? In your situation, that is one thing I would do. It’s possible there is something about the way you hold the weapon that is causing the problem. If other shooters have the same difficulty, at least you know that much and can be reasonably sure your grip is not causing the problem.

If you can’t easily replace the magazine catch, which seems like a good thought, a different approach might be to add a Hogue Handall or something similar to the gun and see if that changes anything. That might help stabilize your hold on the gun, in case it is shifting enough on recoil to cause the magazine to be released. It’s a cheap experiment.

Hope you get your M&P 10 operating satisfactorily soon. Good luck!

I have tried to like the polymer Smiths, but just cannot do it. I have at last count owned 7 of them to date. The longest one was owned for just shy of 6 months. Various calibers, barrel lengths, frame sizes. I don’t own a 10mm, and won’t even try one after having owned the previous half dozen.

Warranty has been part of the reason for some of the issues I had with some of those pistols so I feel for you there. It appears to me that they just aren’t listening when you call about an issue…

I started with S&W back inthe early70’s, was even fortunate to make it to the factory and learned how to repair revolvers and semi-autos. They are not the same company as back then for sure!

I will tell you that the brand G models, 20, 29, and 40 that I have run everything I want all the time. Never had any issues with them at all. Ide take a 1006 or variation before I took a polymer Smith 10.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you!

Regards,
Rick Gibbs

Full mag - as in 15, and the loading one off the top by manually racking the slide? Just asking.

REPLACE NOTHING on your own. That's what they would love. They don't look at your information, and video's because they don't want the information.

They want plausible deniability.

Put this all over the net wherever you can. Put your vids and info on you tube. Find some grade school kid- he'll have the stuff come up anytime someone punches "Smith and Wesson" into a search engine! Let everyone see it. S&W is a shell of what they once were. It's all about the money now. CS has gone out the door. Buy American? To be treated like THIS.

Deal with Glock CS sometime. They would have taken care of this immediately. Many others the same.

I came to the same conclusion.

Mike, sad to hear of the issues and the failure to address them by the company. At this point I would try and ask for a replacement as the original is not functioning properly from everything you have shown.

As to the idea that one must post a certain amount prior to bringing a legitimate issue/complaint to the board makes no sense.

The idea that one must "gunsmith" their defective/non-functioning firearm prior to requesting that the manufacture stand by their product not only makes no sense but it goes contrary to it. "Gunsmithing" will most often void a warranty and not everyone is mechanically inclined to carry out such activity (and it should not be expected of them).

The firearm in question is having issues and the CS has failed. The item should have been/should be replaced with a new unit so that the owner can have a product which functions as it should.

Having an issue with an essentially inoperable firearm and the manufacture not standing by its product is a very legitimate issue. Bringing that issue to a board where there are many, many posters intimately familiar with the product and product maker is a very legitimate action.

A few things:
1. I can't test the pistol with *any* ammo right now because S&W told me to send my magazines back to them and they haven't yet sent me any new ones in exchange. (And they told me to do this knowing what ammo I had been using.)
2. There ultimately isn't much point to testing the pistol with light ammo:
a. If it *doesn't* work with lighter ammo, all I've done is spend more money to further demonstrate a problem that I've already documented.
b. If it *does* work with light ammo, what am I supposed to do? Just use light ammo going forward? The bottom line is, a 10mm that won't run full-power 10mm ammo might as well be a .40. It would be unacceptable for S&W to take the position, "This gun isn't defective, you just can't use full-power ammo in it." -- unacceptable unless they marketed it as such, in which case, they wouldn't be able to sell any of them.

Yes, when I get magazines from S&W, I will test the gun with light ammo, because that's the next step that S&W has assigned to me. But, for the reasons explained above, it seems like a way to kick the can a bit further down the road and to foist responsibility for this problem onto me.

Yes, 100%. Well, 99.99%...Mark*

Film it and document it again. And BTW, for whatever it might be worth, file complaint with BBB. If everyone who had a problem with S&W customer service did this, maybe it would help some. Who knows. It couldn't hurt.

If you had an CS email address you were dealing with, send the videos also. Whether they want them or not, send them so you have THAT documentation also. If you don't have one, send the videos to every S&W email address you can find.

Yes, I absolutely will. And not that I should need to, but I'll try to make plans with a friend so that I can document someone else experiencing the same problem, too.

I'll keep doing everything I can until S&W makes this right.

I agree assuming the "bringer" demonstrated an interest in trying to troubleshoot the problem with help from the board.

If someone on this board has a CS e-mail address to share, I'd appreciate you dm'ing it to me.

I did try to contact them through the e-mail form on their website. They never responded and I don't believe it was possible to send a video file with that form.

That was done, it is being done. It was even filmed.

Good of you to document and share your problem here. Now there will be a "paper trail" for the next person this happens to. If it's resolved, please let us know.
The mag release on my Shield had rusted inside the frame bore. When I removed it, besides removing the rust, there were noticable ridges, like parting lines or casting flash that I smoothed, before coating with white lube. Functioned more smoothly afterward.
Good luck.

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