Why can't I use an Ar15 free float handguard...?

[mk3]

New to the forum, seeking your collective wisdom. I have an MP10 with a Magpul MOE mid-length handguard, 9.18" long, fits perfectly. In the never-ending quest to improve my eventual long range accuracy, when I can eventually put the long range time in, I want to free float. I have spent hours reading all of the info available, mostly about the 308 options, i.e. Troy, PRI, JP, et al. I want a 9" tube in FDE. The Troy would be great, but they have no 308 9". Then the light bulb went off. If the Magpul MOE fits, and it is a standard AR15 barrel nut handguard, why can I not use the Troy Alpha 9" AR15 barrel nut compatible handguard? It is the lightest on the market, one of the strongest, priced well with included rails. I would like to keep the gas block where it is, but if there is a 1/2 or less inch fit problem, I could get a low profile block. Please give me your opinions/advice. Thanks

[copemech]

Well at least it seems you got your Magpul handguard on. Did you do anything special on yours?

See my recent post on the question and response provided and respond on there if you can, thanks!

[DesertFox]

Seems like it would be money better spent to upgrade from the pencil barrel to something more accurate before "accurizing" with a free-float handguard. Food for thought.

Seems like you'd just be polishing a terd...

[apiccola]

MK3, you may want to contact troy industries for better explanation. I have the Troy Alpha on my MP15TS. This handguard has 3 latches that slide into the gap between the barrel and the barrel nut on the 5.56mm barrels. On 7.62mm barrels, this gap does not appear to exist. Hence, the 308 model handguard uses a different latch setup.

[mk3]

copemach: My gunsmith didn't seem to have trouble. I didn't have a barrel nut tool so he did it.

Desert Fox: My thinking was that the thinner barrel would be more prone to distortion without free float. I like the lighter weight.

apiccola: Yes, I am contacting Troy and S & W. Thanks.

[ole-cowboy]

Originally Posted by DesertFox

Seems like it would be money better spent to upgrade from the pencil barrel to something more accurate before "accurizing" with a free-float handguard. Food for thought.

Seems like you'd just be polishing a terd...

haha
I love statements like these

[DesertFox]

Originally Posted by mk3

copemach: My gunsmith didn't seem to have trouble. I didn't have a barrel nut tool so he did it.

Desert Fox: My thinking was that the thinner barrel would be more prone to distortion without free float. I like the lighter weight.

apiccola: Yes, I am contacting Troy and S & W. Thanks.

If minute of softball is the accuracy level that floats your boat. I have found the M&P10 to be light to carry and difficult to hit the broadside of a barn with.

Even with a free-floating thing-a-majiggie...

My thinking is to counter a waste of time and money.

[HYRYSC]

Originally Posted by DesertFox

If minute of softball is the accuracy level that floats your boat. I have found the M&P10 to be light to carry and difficult to hit the broadside of a barn with.

Even with a free-floating thing-a-majiggie...

My thinking is to counter a waste of time and money.

You find it difficult to hit the broadside of a barn with?

I am not sure of your level of experience, but certainly sounds like user error to me.

Granted it is no Surgeon, but hitting golf balls at 100 yards is easy as long as you are using decent ammo and a fair optic.

[ASH556]

Originally Posted by DesertFox

If minute of softball is the accuracy level that floats your boat. I have found the M&P10 to be light to carry and difficult to hit the broadside of a barn with.

Even with a free-floating thing-a-majiggie...

My thinking is to counter a waste of time and money.

You are completely full of it..."minute of softball." How about you learn how to shoot before spreading bad info around.

To the OP and anyone else who cares, here's what the M&P10 will do accuracy-wise with a 9X hunting scope:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924793356/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924793356/ by ASH556, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925017023/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925017023/ by ASH556, on Flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925016403/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925016403/ by ASH556, on Flickr

Oh, and here's my shooting setup:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925284043/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925284043/ by ASH556, on Flickr

[ASH556]

Oh, and the reason you can't use an AR15 handguard on your M&P 10 is because the threads on the receiver are different. The factory barrel nut has similar enough external dimensions and delta ring assembly to an AR15 that standard and Magpul handguards will work, but free float handguards typically use proprietary barrel nuts, so the threads are different and it won't work.

[DesertFox]

Originally Posted by ASH556

You are completely full of it..."minute of softball." How about you learn how to shoot before spreading bad info around.

To the OP and anyone else who cares, here's what the M&P10 will do accuracy-wise with a 9X hunting scope:


M&P10 grp 4 by ASH556, on Flickr

M&P10 grp 3 by ASH556, on Flickr

M&P10 grp 2 by ASH556, on Flickr

Oh, and here's my shooting setup:


Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

Nice shootin, Tex... You call that accurate? I do believe my M&P15-22 is more accurate at 100 yards than that! See ya at the mall...

[HYRYSC]

It seems you are trying to obfuscate your original post.

You stated that you found it difficult to hit the broad side of a barn with the M&P 10. Ash556 proved that his was more accurate than that.

There are more accurate firearms out there and the 15-22 might be one of them, but the M&P 10 is an accurate firearm for what it is. If you cannot accurately place shots with yours, it would suggest user error.

[aphelion]

Originally Posted by DesertFox

Nice shootin, Tex... You call that accurate? I do believe my M&P15-22 is more accurate at 100 yards than that! See ya at the mall...

I'd call it pretty darn accurate, considering he is shooting off a knapsack from the bed of a pickup. I'd say the setup could well account for the fliers. What would the rifle do from a solid bench? Decent shooting, Ash556.

[DesertFox]

What we've seen here is performance from the M&P10 that is simply alright. This is by doing side by side comparisons of the M&P10 vs.:

M14 standard issue
R25 (to represent the AR approach, says Remington but really DPMS)
FNAR (.5 MOA guarantee out of the box, also was the Winchester SXAR or now the Browning HogTracker)

Bolt actions left out as to be doing apple to apple comparison. Don't have a SCAR 17 or Colt LE901 to test with, yet. Test subjects have run the gamut from unsuspecting pieces of paper to white-tail, mulies and speed goat. While none of the paper nor ungulates complained, observation over repeated sampling left a pretty predictable order of finish. From most to least accurate for 7.62x51 launching platform:

FNAR - heaviest barrel
R25 - fluted heavy barrel, no suppressor, free float
M14 - National Match or something other than standard would probably place this higher
M&P10 - pencil barrel

While the M&P10 has some nice ambi features, I'd be hard pressed at recommending for purchase based on the results seen in such comparisons. Not read in the mags or forums but actually tested over time with varieties of ammo.

Photos of the M&P10 with the free float hand-guard sure make it look better than the factory plastic furniture, by a long shot. How much better does it shoot with the free float compared to stock? This is something I have not tested personally.

[apiccola]

Desert Fox, shooting from a quality bench rest, there is no apparent difference between the Magpul MOE handguard and the Apex free float handguard. The grouping at 100 meters is right at .5 MOA with a cold barrel. This grouping gets tighter as the barrel gets hotter and stays tight well through 5 full 20 round magazines (100 rounds). With the original handguard on the MP10, the group was totally erratic ... I totally get what you meant in a previous post elsewhere about not being able to hit the broadside of a barn with the MP10 (as it relates to shooting with the OEM handguard).

[gkmac54]

I too am going to keep the original gas block and have decided on the apex 9 inch, 9 ounce hand guard. You can cerakote the handguard magpul FDE.

[DesertFox]

Originally Posted by apiccola

Desert Fox, shooting from a quality bench rest, there is no apparent difference between the Magpul MOE handguard and the Apex free float handguard. The grouping at 100 meters is right at .5 MOA with a cold barrel. This grouping gets tighter as the barrel gets hotter and stays tight well through 5 full 20 round magazines (100 rounds). With the original handguard on the MP10, the group was totally erratic ... I totally get what you meant in a previous post elsewhere about not being able to hit the broadside of a barn with the MP10 (as it relates to shooting with the OEM handguard).

Well then I must commence on a free floating of the M&P10! Yes, the stock handguard setup is what I was taking issue with, not necessarily the angel hair barrel. Thanks for the info! Maybe I'll hit the barn yet with the dern thing...

[4mer03e5]

those are NICE groups!!! I like your setup as well...

[mk3]

Originally Posted by gkmac54

I too am going to keep the original gas block and have decided on the apex 9 inch, 9 ounce hand guard. You can cerakote the handguard magpul FDE.

Sorry to be so long in replying, but have been living at Miami Children's Hospital with my little 7 year old daughter the last 10 days. This solution appears to be the best. A cycling buddy who is the SWAT sniper leader on a local PD tells me they have selected the MP10 for their 308, as have many other PD's. That is a good enough endorsement for me.

[DesertFox]

OK, apologies for this necro thread but I had to add:

Swapped out standard factory hard guards with a Lancer carbon fiber unit. End weight was about the same as the Lancer barrel nut is beefy/heavy. OMG. What a difference. Accuracy is completely within my expectations for this gun. The recoil impulse feels different as well. Not sure why.

Thanks to those who pointed me in this direction as I had just about given up on this one.

[macliver]

Originally Posted by ASH556

You are completely full of it..."minute of softball." How about you learn how to shoot before spreading bad info around.

To the OP and anyone else who cares, here's what the M&P10 will do accuracy-wise with a 9X hunting scope:


M&P10 grp 4 by ASH556, on Flickr

M&P10 grp 3 by ASH556, on Flickr

M&P10 grp 2 by ASH556, on Flickr

Oh, and here's my shooting setup:


Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

ASH556....You the man (or woman, don't know)! But regardless, well put and said. When I read 'can't hit the side of a barn' I was like who the hell is this A-hole.

I think your groupings are very accurate. Aren't those 1 inch squares on your sheet? and with the setup you showed, that's fantastic. Well done.

Mac

[DesertFox]

Originally Posted by macliver

ASH556....You the man (or woman, don't know)! But regardless, well put and said. When I read 'can't hit the side of a barn' I was like who the hell is this A-hole.

I think your groupings are very accurate. Aren't those 1 inch squares on your sheet? and with the setup you showed, that's fantastic. Well done.

Mac

Free-floating made all the diff in the world, as attested to by several.

Nice ad hominem too Mac...

[macliver]

Originally Posted by DesertFox

Free-floating made all the diff in the world, as attested to by several.

Nice ad hominem too Mac...

Just so you know DesertFox...I was just having a little fun with you and the 'barn' comment. Free floating is great on this rifle and I will attest to that as well!! This is my rig with the Troy rail.

[MistWolf]

Originally Posted by DesertFox

Swapped out standard factory hard guards with a Lancer carbon fiber unit. End weight was about the same as the Lancer barrel nut is beefy/heavy. OMG. What a difference. Accuracy is completely within my expectations for this gun. The recoil impulse feels different as well. Not sure why.

Thanks to those who pointed me in this direction as I had just about given up on this one.

Did you use the handguard for the DPMS (NR-17) or the Armalite (NR-18)? Could you post photos of your rifle with the Lancer installed? When I have the money I plan to get the rifle length and was wondering which one fits the M&P-10

[tacticool22]

Nice looking muzzle brake macliver
Free float or not. It's all personal preference

[macliver]

Originally Posted by tacticool22

Nice looking muzzle brake macliver
Free float or not. It's all personal preference

Thanks Tacticool! I know I owe you a video but I haven't shot the rifle with it since I moved to Texas. Need to find a job first! But I will once I'm settled and firing again!

Mac

[copemech]

Originally Posted by macliver

Thanks Tacticool! I know I owe you a video but I haven't shot the rifle with it since I moved to Texas. Need to find a job first! But I will once I'm settled and firing again!

Mac

Wher(in tejas) did you move to? We might be only a couple hundred miles apart!

[copemech]

OK, so, I do not know if anyone has seen my latest post and the pic in my " what have I done wrong now" thread, but I have not seen great accuracy results in my first trip out to 100 with the Magpul front installed. Results were baffling, too many fliers, top ammo had worst result!

At least the gun seems to run ok after the gas port mod to .073 using what I brung. This is good news!

Yet, I admit to still being confuncted by exactly what free float systems actually fit these things and what to ask for, if standard AR15 does not fit!

I get it that the nut is different, so what are they using and do all require a special nut?

How do they attach?

[Veeper]

This free float hand guard fits the M&P 10.

Midwest Industries: DPMS .308 SS-KeyMod Series

It comes with the nut that's needed to attach it to the rifle.

[mk3]

I put the AP Custom carbon fiber handguard on my MP10 to free float. Replaced the Magpul. Very light, looks great and hopefully will add accuracy when I can get a chance to shoot past 200 yards.

[copemech]

Originally Posted by Veeper

This free float hand guard fits the M&P 10.

Midwest Industries: DPMS .308 SS-KeyMod Series

It comes with the nut that's needed to attach it to the rifle.

That looks wicked sweet! Need more MONEY!

Does it have the keyrails on the bottom as well?

[macliver]

Originally Posted by copemech

Wher(in tejas) did you move to? We might be only a couple hundred miles apart!

Austin essentially, Lakeway specifically. Dying to get to The Best of the West range.

Where are you?

[copemech]

Originally Posted by macliver

Austin essentially, Lakeway specifically. Dying to get to The Best of the West range.

Where are you?

Oh well, I'm near Dallas!

Some great areas down there in the hill country though, have some fun!

[bergermeister]

Originally Posted by DesertFox

Seems like it would be money better spent to upgrade from the pencil barrel to something more accurate before "accurizing" with a free-float handguard. Food for thought.

Seems like you'd just be polishing a terd...

Please direct me to a site that sells a quality barrel that will FIT as a replacement for the MP-10's "pencil barrel"..

[da gimp]

Originally Posted by mk3

Sorry to be so long in replying, but have been living at Miami Children's Hospital with my little 7 year old daughter the last 10 days. This solution appears to be the best. A cycling buddy who is the SWAT sniper leader on a local PD tells me they have selected the MP10 for their 308, as have many other PD's. That is a good enough endorsement for me.

Know that she & you are in our prayers.

[copemech]

Originally Posted by bergermeister

Please direct me to a site that sells a quality barrel that will FIT as a replacement for the MP-10's "pencil barrel"..

Good luck with that! Finding another gun would be best to me!

If you want a heavy gun you can find one for a price!

SW proprietary barrel /bolt for sure!