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  #1  
Old 09-01-2014, 02:44 PM
thompsonmike82 thompsonmike82 is offline
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Default Talk me out of the M&P 10

Hello whoever is reading this,

Last weekend I fired an AR 15 style rifle for the first time. It was my dad's birthday so I thought let's rent something different while we were at the range. The Wilson Combat 1911 was freaking awesome to shoot and I shoot it way better than my G29. But I digress, I rented an AR 15 with a silencer. It was super fun! We were at an indoor range and the max distance was 25 yards.

I had so much fun that the next day I started looking into buying one. I think I want an AR 10. I hear I could hunt with it even though I've never been hunting in my life. It's a larger round that I hear I can shoot further and with more power than the 5.56 and I think it would be fun to knock down steel plates at 1000 yards. Obviously, the first day I took it to the outdoor range I wouldn't be attempting that. I can pick up an M&P 10 brand new for just under $1300 where the M&P 15 would be about $900.

One of my concerns is cost of ammunition. Ammo is $1 a round (I wouldn't buy the cheap Russian stuff) and that seems like it could get very costly. When I start to think of that though, I don't plan on rapid firing the rifle as I do with my hand gun. I don't plan on going through 30 rounds in under 30 seconds with the rifle. Since I really want to get into distance and accuracy shooting I'd probably only blow through 100 rounds at the range in two hours I would guess.

My other concern is customization. I seem to be reading things on forums that the AR 10 allows for less customization than the AR 15. Probably because the AR 15 is like a Honda Civic, everyone and their mother has one. I've seen some really cool pictures of AR 15's and I'd like to be able to do that with my gun as well. At the moment, I'd like to get a scope, bi-pod, and free float the barrel. Those are the first upgrades I would make.

So to sum it all up, I want to pretend I'm a marine sniper at the range shooting targets 1000yards away, not pay a lot for ammo, customize the gun and have a lot of fun! Also, the silencer was really cool. Do you know if the flash hider is removable on the M&P 10? I know two people with M&P 15's and one of theirs is removable and the other is welded to the barrel.

Talk me out of buying this Smith & Wesson M&P 10.

Mike
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:10 PM
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So to sum it all up, I want to pretend I'm a marine sniper at the range shooting targets 1000yards away, not pay a lot for ammo

-snip-

Talk me out of buying this Smith & Wesson M&P 10.

Mike
If you want to play Marine Corps Sniper then you might as well play the best.

Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock .

You will need a Remington USMC M40, not an AR pattern rifle.



Also Springfield Armory makes a Gunny Hathcock version of the M1A called "The WhiteFeather"



So have I talked you out of it????
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:10 PM
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Default Can not do it.

I can not tell you to not buy it because I just bought one.
In my case I already had the M&P - 15 sport. Love that gun too.
All ways wanted a M-1A but here in Maryland it can no longer be bought, sooooo M&P - 10 was my next choice . I like the feel of it , but have not shot it yet. I also reload so the price of ammo is a little less concerning for me. Good luck in your choice.
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Old 09-01-2014, 05:10 PM
thompsonmike82 thompsonmike82 is offline
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Smith357.... $1800?????!!!! lol Ouch! While the does look kind of cool, the price point is $800 more than I wanted to spend plus the AR platform looks cooler in my humble opinion.

Whoever said money doesn't buy happiness never shot guns! lol

When I bought my first handgun 6 months ago my dad told me it was an addiction and I'd end up buying more. I didn't believe him, I do now.
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Old 09-01-2014, 06:19 PM
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I must be getting old. I saw the thread title & thought it was going to be about a .38 Spl. revolver.
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Old 09-01-2014, 06:47 PM
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Have you ever shot at a 1000yds before? I own a mp10 and would consider it a mid range rifle, 300-600yds. With practice and the right ammo you might be able to stretch that out to 800, a 1000yds is pushing it. If you want a long range precision rifle id look into a bolt gun in 300 or 338. I think having such high expectations of any semi auto 308 rifle is only going to lead to a let down or spending a ton of money. As far as customization goes your pretty limited when it comes to the mp10. It accepts standard ar furniture for the most part and the flash hider is removable. The factory trigger is outstanding in mine, clean break right at 4.5lbs. I have over 1200rds through it with zero malfunctions. Half of those rounds were tula and wolf. I'm a southpaw so the ambidextrous controls are a huge bonus to me. If your looking for a ar10 that you can swap barrels and internals on the mp10 is not for you. If your looking for a 1000yd 308 semi auto rifle the mp10 is not for you. If you want a accurate, reliable, ambidextrous, lightweight, 308 semi auto rifle and understand its capabilities, the mp10 is a good choice. Don't forget optics, at that distance you'll need a good scope and mount $$$$. Match grade 308 usually runs about $1.50-2.50rd if you don't reload. The thought of 1000yd shooting is thrown around way to often. It is difficult and expensive to achieve. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can shoot 1000yds with a 308, im just saying that it would be very difficult with a semi auto with a 18" barrel. Hope this helps, good luck on your 1000yd quest.
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Old 09-01-2014, 08:38 PM
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I'll play. You shouldn't buy the M&P 10. AR10 rifles are not the M&P 10 - owners of AR 10's get feisty when you call any other .308 semi-auto rifle an AR10 (I know, I know). Anyway, your expectations are too high as the others have already said. Don't get me wrong, I really like my M&P 10 and can't shoot it enough. You need to match the rifle to what you want it to do.

The suppressor costs money to buy plus there's a $200 license to own it. I think that's the price as I do not have any. I also believe suppressors are harder on the the firearm. However, I'd love one too.

The rifle can be customized somewhat - all the furniture, triggers, springs, gas blocks (lower for certain free floating hand guards) and the flash hider are the usual swaps.

Based on your comments, I think you'd really like the M&P 15 more than the 10. My Magpul MID version is a really fun shooter and ammo for them is easy to come by. Think about it, you might still join our club
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:31 PM
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M&P 10 has too many proprietary parts as most ARs in the .308 platform. Could you make hits out to 1,000 yards, it is possible but not all that likely at least without some upgrades and an expensive scope (read several thousand dollars spent here). Buy a bolt gun or if you must have an AR platform check out Larue Tactical rifles and be prepared to spend some big cash and wait for the build to be completed.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:10 AM
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Answer #1 - if you want an M&P 10 , no reason not to. In AR-15's ( of direct gas type ) are all interchangeable as to internal parts. In the Large frame type , the are several different designs that are not interchangable. None are clearly *better* than the others , just different.

Answer #2 - Your wish list ( dream list ) is overly ambitous. By all means jump in and persue serious precision rifle shooting , but it's a long journey to get to where you outlined. Knowledegable instruction from a skilled instructor , who is also skill at long range field shooting and/ or F Class competion can jump start you. But it will take a lot of practice , and tweaking of your equipment and (probably handloads ) before 1000yds is in the picture.
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Old 09-02-2014, 11:30 AM
thompsonmike82 thompsonmike82 is offline
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You're all jerks! You didn't do what I asked! hah Just kidding

I really think that M1A is pretty cool looking but it's just not in my budget right now. I went ahead and made the purchase and my M&P 10 should be here in a week or two. I'd post some pictures when I get it but I'm pretty sure everyone has seen a stock one before. heh What I will do is post some pictures of the broad side of the barn I'll be shooting at 1000 yards out, there will hopefully be 1 or 2 bullet holes in it out of 20 shots....

I'm pretty excited about it coming and I appreciate the responses from everyone, thank you.

Mike
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Old 09-02-2014, 01:05 PM
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1000 yards into a barn is easy. You'll do that 20 out of 20 times!

I love my M&P10. It's a pleasant and accurate semi. Realistically the 308 is a poor choice for long range, but the military has used them for years in that capacity. Why? Well it is the military....

Yup, a Remington 40X is an amazing rifle for accuracy!

Good luck on those 1000 yard shots! You'll have a ball chasing that target and when you finally hit it you'll feel great. It's all fun.

.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by thompsonmike82 View Post
You're all jerks! You didn't do what I asked! hah Just kidding

I really think that M1A is pretty cool looking but it's just not in my budget right now. I went ahead and made the purchase and my M&P 10 should be here in a week or two. I'd post some pictures when I get it but I'm pretty sure everyone has seen a stock one before. heh What I will do is post some pictures of the broad side of the barn I'll be shooting at 1000 yards out, there will hopefully be 1 or 2 bullet holes in it out of 20 shots....

I'm pretty excited about it coming and I appreciate the responses from everyone, thank you.

Mike
I bought an M&P 10 when they first came out, the LE version. I immediately put FDE Magpul furniture on it, the STR buttstock, the MIAD grip, and the MOE handguard. I added a Weaver V-16, I just happened to have, in a Leupold Mark 2 mount. I have not shot it enough to Judge it, but it appears to be a sub 1.5 MOA carbine. I just got a "G" trigger for it, a SD-E. I plan to shoot it extensively when I get the trigger installed. It is a fun gun to shoot.
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Old 09-04-2014, 11:32 PM
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Smith357.... $1800?????!!!! lol Ouch! While the does look kind of cool, the price point is $800 more than I wanted to spend plus the AR platform looks cooler in my humble opinion.

Whoever said money doesn't buy happiness never shot guns! lol

When I bought my first handgun 6 months ago my dad told me it was an addiction and I'd end up buying more. I didn't believe him, I do now.
Standard Remington Model 700 ADL in 30-06 or 300WinMag, and you will be truly shooting a rifle built first and foremost to maximize the cost vs. accuracy conundrum. Out the door, with a decent scope for about $700.
As to the M&P10. It's not a bad rifle. Yes, you can find bulk ammo for about .50 a shot, when you buy 500-1000 rounds. That should last you several range days, even with friends.
Hunting ammo is ALWAYS going to be a bit more expensive.
But, it is more accurate, and is built specifically to maximize impact and stopping power on animals.
At $1300, with no optic, you are at the limit of sensibility- better shooting rifles are there for half as much. It really depends on what you are looking for, your budget, and your expected investment and return on said investment.
At $1300, add optics and such, and you can not get back what you put into the rifle. Plain and simple. On the other hand, a good bolt rifle set up for $800; you can usually get that back, or better.
As to the ability to add parts/ accessorize the M&P10, they are pretty proprietary in parts, so if that is your desire...... get a DPMS, or a Bushmaster, or CMMG, or any of a dozen other rifles, all of which cost about the same, or a bit less than the M&P.
But; to be fair- the M&P is NOT a bad choice. Not at all.
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Old 09-05-2014, 10:25 PM
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I wish someone had talked me out of buying my M&P 10. You cannot buy a replacement barrel but they don't tell you about the lack of parts on the front end...
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Old 09-05-2014, 10:40 PM
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I like 'em.
Here is mine with silencer.
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Old 09-06-2014, 12:42 AM
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Want an autoloader .308 long range marksman's rifle? Get an M1A Springfield, and shell out the cash for top notch match grade and trimmings. Want a .308 battle rifle? Get a regular M1A, get a PTR 91, or get a FN FAL. Those three are based on real world military guns with very real battle experience and refinement. The AR-10 is a failed prototype, and people only buy it because Americans are coo-coo for AR-15's, and are to afraid to leave the platform.
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Old 09-06-2014, 09:28 AM
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I like 'em.
Here is mine with silencer.
How well does it cycle with 308 sub's? Curious. I've only seen a couple rifles which could make the switch back and forth from regular rounds to subs that were not difficult to get clean cycling from.
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Old 09-06-2014, 09:52 AM
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How well does it cycle with 308 sub's? Curious. I've only seen a couple rifles which could make the switch back and forth from regular rounds to subs that were not difficult to get clean cycling from.
I didn't shoot my M&P 10 suppressed (sold it) but my long stoke piston .308 cycles anything (suppressed, non suppressed, hotter military rounds, or stuff from Walmart). Another reason for an adjustable piston platform.

To Vettely AAC 762-SDN-6? Enjoy!
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Old 09-07-2014, 06:42 PM
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I was all set to buy a M&P 10 until I added up what it would cost me to configure it the way I wanted. I bought the SR762 instead as it came with the the BUIS, forearm and 2 xtra mags. So for the same money I got a 308 piston AR which also weighs less than the M&P 10.
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Old 09-08-2014, 08:06 PM
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I wish someone had talked me out of buying my M&P 10. You cannot buy a replacement barrel but they don't tell you about the lack of parts on the front end...
"Know The Facts" As you say in your other post. I am sure if my new M&P-10 needs a new barrel for a warranty issue , Smith and Wesson would have a barrel for it. In your case, I do not believe any gun maker would send a new barrel for you to put on a gun that went Kaboom due to a bore blockage. There are too many possible problems with the remainder of the gun. The gun has a life time warranty so conceivable I doubt that I will shoot out the barrel and need a new one.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:09 AM
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I would love to talk you out of buying an M&P 10... but I cannot. I bought one a couple of months ago. I topped it with a Nikon Buckmasters 3-9 x 40 & purchased a readily available, off the shelf ammo... that resulted in .904", 5 shot groups at 100 yards. All factory components.

I have now installed a Gisselle SSA-E trigger group and a Magpul ACS stock & expect those groups to improve.

Hopefully I will get decent results from my hunting ammo... 165 grain Nosler Trophy Grade ballistic tips.
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:04 PM
thompsonmike82 thompsonmike82 is offline
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Too late, my new M&P 10 is supposed to be delivered to Bass Pro Shop today!

Now I just have to read through these forums to find out what cleaning things I need for this gun to get it ready to shoot for the first time this weekend!

Mike
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Old 09-09-2014, 02:44 PM
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I have now installed a Gisselle SSA-E trigger group and a Magpul ACS stock & expect those groups to improve.
068 - Did you measure trigger pull before and after the Gisselle trigger install? I'm curious as I'm considering doing the same. Thanks.
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Old 09-09-2014, 03:05 PM
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Want an autoloader .308 long range marksman's rifle? Get an M1A Springfield, and shell out the cash for top notch match grade and trimmings. Want a .308 battle rifle? Get a regular M1A, get a PTR 91, or get a FN FAL. Those three are based on real world military guns with very real battle experience and refinement. The AR-10 is a failed prototype, and people only buy it because Americans are coo-coo for AR-15's, and are to afraid to leave the platform.
Yep this ^.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:27 PM
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Want an autoloader .308 long range marksman's rifle? Get an M1A Springfield, and shell out the cash for top notch match grade and trimmings. Want a .308 battle rifle? Get a regular M1A, get a PTR 91, or get a FN FAL. Those three are based on real world military guns with very real battle experience and refinement. The AR-10 is a failed prototype, and people only buy it because Americans are coo-coo for AR-15's, and are to afraid to leave the platform.
Well, based on this platform, we (US) DO employ and deploy the Knights Armament SR 25. And, the British are using the LMT 308AR/ AR10. The original AR10 was and is still used by the Argentines, and a couple other small nations. It was used alongside the FAL in Rhodesia.

If you really know the AR10 history, the rifle was very good, and GTG for testing until the week before the official test, where they swapped the barrel for a carbon fiber wrapped ultra thin barrel for weight savings. And, it (The original) works pretty well. Except it can not take sustained heat because the epoxy winds up going soft, and the inner barrel will then swell and blow.
The originals' main drawback was the attempts to modify M14 magazines to fit the rifle. The M14 unit costs a whopping $9 back in the day, while the Armalite AR10 magazine ran about $35, and this was in the 1980's. To be fair, with the factory magazine, the rifle works well, and does not break down. The carbon barrel was a stupid stunt, and it cost them the M14 contract.
You can see how much the platform made an impression, because when it was reintroduced as the AR15/ M16....... the only thing left to say was "What M14???" The M14 is a good rifle. It throws a good round; a BETTER round than the 5.56, by far. But it has its' own issues, as does every combat rifle. And it's no weight savings. As to the FAL, they are really good rifles, but with their own quirks, so no one is to be outdone in the weird parts arena. I traded my SR25, at the right time, and it was WELL WORTH my while to do so. Lemme tell you; I would have run that rifle a hundred times over before I would hustle the M14 around for a month. And, if to compare to an FAL? There would be no compelling reason to go with the FAL. If there was no parts support?? Neither is prone to parts failure on a regular basis. So, day to day, there would be no benefit. As to accuracy??? The FAL would be a good bit behind the SR25. It's not better in any way to any of the 308 rifles I now have.

And; for the assumption that the M&P10 would be purchased to be a potential middleweight battle rifle for self defense/ EOTWAWKI rifle?? Look man....... whatever rifle and pistol you are carrying will be the last rifle and pistol you will ever carry. In this case? If I was in possession of the M&P10, and the world flipped on its' head? I'd load out everything into every mag, and then choose carefully what else I would store and where, and how. And I would walk out into the fray- a helluva lot better prepared than my neighbors. Tier 1, tier 2, shotgun, 22lr, 38snubnose revolver- ALL beat unarmed. Run what ya brung.

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Old 09-10-2014, 02:36 PM
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068 - Did you measure trigger pull before and after the Gisselle trigger install? I'm curious as I'm considering doing the same. Thanks.
Me too! I have a Geissele Super Dynamic Enhanced, SD-E, trigger still in the packaging waiting to be installed in my M&P 10. Thanks.
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:50 PM
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Well, based on this platform, we (US) DO employ and deploy the Knights Armament SR 25. And, the British are using the LMT 308AR/ AR10. The original AR10 was and is still used by the Argentines, and a couple other small nations. It was used alongside the FAL in Rhodesia.

If you really know the AR10 history, the rifle was very good, and GTG for testing until the week before the official test, where they swapped the barrel for a carbon fiber wrapped ultra thin barrel for weight savings. And, it (The original) works pretty well. Except it can not take sustained heat because the epoxy winds up going soft, and the inner barrel will then swell and blow.
The originals' main drawback was the attempts to modify M14 magazines to fit the rifle. The M14 unit costs a whopping $9 back in the day, while the Armalite AR10 magazine ran about $35, and this was in the 1980's. To be fair, with the factory magazine, the rifle works well, and does not break down. The carbon barrel was a stupid stunt, and it cost them the M14 contract.
You can see how much the platform made an impression, because when it was reintroduced as the AR15/ M16....... the only thing left to say was "What M14???" The M14 is a good rifle. It throws a good round; a BETTER round than the 5.56, by far. But it has its' own issues, as does every combat rifle. And it's no weight savings. As to the FAL, they are really good rifles, but with their own quirks, so no one is to be outdone in the weird parts arena. I traded my SR25, at the right time, and it was WELL WORTH my while to do so. Lemme tell you; I would have run that rifle a hundred times over before I would hustle the M14 around for a month. And, if to compare to an FAL? There would be no compelling reason to go with the FAL. If there was no parts support?? Neither is prone to parts failure on a regular basis. So, day to day, there would be no benefit. As to accuracy??? The FAL would be a good bit behind the SR25. It's not better in any way to any of the 308 rifles I now have.

And; for the assumption that the M&P10 would be purchased to be a potential middleweight battle rifle for self defense/ EOTWAWKI rifle?? Look man....... whatever rifle and pistol you are carrying will be the last rifle and pistol you will ever carry. In this case? If I was in possession of the M&P10, and the world flipped on its' head? I'd load out everything into every mag, and then choose carefully what else I would store and where, and how. And I would walk out into the fray- a helluva lot better prepared than my neighbors. Tier 1, tier 2, shotgun, 22lr, 38snubnose revolver- ALL beat unarmed. Run what ya brung.
You gave some reasons why the AR-10 lost to the M-14 in the US, but fail to mention why the rest of the free world chose the FN FAL or the G3. Truth is, rifle to rifle, the AR 10 lost out to both platforms in fair competition in many countries. There's a little bit more to the story than a carbon barrel in the US run of tests.

As for the M-14 not being a big weight saver, well, not everyone begs to have a .308 rifle shaved down to nothing, considering that heavier guns mitigate recoil better, and are more stable at rest. I do know the specs on the AR's .308 marksmen rifles used militarily, and they are certainly no lightweights or middleweights.

Since you brought up parts briefly, let us address that. Since all G3's and HK91 cones are exactly identical, any and all surplus parts and add ons are extremely cheap and available, and there is no sweat of looking up parts lists to see what parts can go with which parts. The FN FAl is not quite as universal, but between the metric and inch variations, there are still many parts available, mostly interchangable, and the used market is rife with military surplus. On the other hand, AR 10's are not exactly universal by any standard. Many parts and builds have little compatibility with others, leaving the user searching for specific parts, at lower availability, and higher prices, and also at the risk of the loss of a small manufacturer could render a weapon with any future supplies of new parts. Wither they break down constantly or rock solid reliable, extra parts are valuable, and at some point with heavy use, necessary.

I respect your input, and agree that the AR-10's on the civilian market will out shoot a FN FAL in terms of accuracy out of the box, off the shelf, and very true that all weapons have quirks. But will I change my recommendation? Probably not.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:21 PM
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068 - Did you measure trigger pull before and after the Gisselle trigger install? I'm curious as I'm considering doing the same. Thanks.
I do not have a trigger pull gauge to measure the difference but then I did not need one to immediately feel the difference.

The Gisselle is 1,000 times better than OE (keep in mind that I have only dry fired the new trigger around 100 times. No live rounds yet.).
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Old 09-13-2014, 03:20 PM
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If I understand correctly the M&P10 is not an AR10 right?

And I'm sure there are many more economical choices for throwing lead, and more accurate choices, and more politically correct choices, and more historically proven choices.

That doesn't mean anyone is wrong buying the M&P10.
I bought one because I got a great price and I like it. It makes me happy so it's a good buy in my mind. If I want a Garrand I'll buy one of those too!

I believe there are compromises with any rifle, you choose which aspects are important for your use.

My M&P10 is a cream puff to shoot, is very accurate, holds a lot of ammo and makes me happy. That's a Best Buy in my book

.
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Old 09-13-2014, 04:49 PM
thompsonmike82 thompsonmike82 is offline
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Bass Pro Shop and CO suck!!!!!!!!!!!!! They took my magazine away because it's 20 rounds! $50 says the douche bag behind the counter just kept it for himself....

I hate democrats!
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Old 09-14-2014, 02:51 PM
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Did your gun come with the standard S&W 10 rounder also ? Mine did because in this state 10 round magazines are the only ones that are legal to sell. If you did not get any mag I would contact the seller or S&W to see about getting at least a 10 rounder. Now it is legal for us to drive out of State and buy high capacity mags, in person, and bring them back . Go figure.
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:22 AM
thompsonmike82 thompsonmike82 is offline
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Nope, it only came with the 20 round mag. A local gun store was able to sell me PARTS for a 20 round mag. It took me 5 seconds to make a 20 round Pmag.... Drop a spring inside the plastic case and put a cover on, boom done. Democrats are soooooooooooo stupid.

I'm heading up to Jensen Arms this Saturday since their WY store is closing for good this weekend. I'll pick up a few Pmags up there. My dad told me that before this stupid Dem. law went into place, Magpul did a helicopter drop with thousands of magazines for free to the public. He said he picked up 12 just from that.

I will forever buy Magpul products just because they're good people for doing something like that. I guess that the Democrats do have a point though. Magazines under 15 rounds cannot kill people. They actually are even unable to load ammunition into. 15 round magazines are only for show, they're basically dummy magazines. Also, you cannot remove a 15 round magazine and put a second one in, it's physically impossible to do. I believe that we should remove all cars from the road. Cars kill more people than bullets. Democrats, please put in effect a law that removes all cars from the road. GO OBAMA! You Republicans can eat it! Obama is smarter than all! AIDS, AIDS kills a lot of people. We should remove everyone with AIDS.

Mike
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:29 AM
thompsonmike82 thompsonmike82 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lost Lake View Post
If I understand correctly the M&P10 is not an AR10 right?

And I'm sure there are many more economical choices for throwing lead, and more accurate choices, and more politically correct choices, and more historically proven choices.

That doesn't mean anyone is wrong buying the M&P10.
I bought one because I got a great price and I like it. It makes me happy so it's a good buy in my mind. If I want a Garrand I'll buy one of those too!

I believe there are compromises with any rifle, you choose which aspects are important for your use.

My M&P10 is a cream puff to shoot, is very accurate, holds a lot of ammo and makes me happy. That's a Best Buy in my book

.
Your understanding is the same as mine. People do not own AR10's or AR15's unless they have an Armalite. I understand that Armalite has the patent for these and you cannot officially call another brand an AR10 or AR15. The M&P 10 is very similar to the AR10 as far as sizes and how it's chambered.

I like how the rifle looks and how you can customize it. It is a bit heavy but I'm not in Vietnam carrying it for 15 hours a day so that's not a huge deal to me. I'm excited to go shoot the thing, maybe this weekend. First, I have to figure out how to get the stupid takedown pin out for the first time! I need a dowel and a punch to get that bad boy out.


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Old 09-17-2014, 04:10 PM
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Thomsonmike82,
I agree with what you say, but caution your use of political language... Not arguing, just some take offense and then things get deleted and people get yelled at... You know what I mean

And yes cars kill more people than guns. The difference is probably that most everyone owns a car and they see value and usefulness in it. Many fewer own guns and those who don't sometimes don't see the usefulness of having one..... And then they are fed the idea that guns kill people, and only criminals have a use for guns, and you can see why some may believe guns are bad.

Our job is to show the usefulness of guns, owning guns, and defending the right to own guns!! Spread the word whenever you can!

.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:23 PM
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Talk you out of an M&P10?
OK. Challenge accepted.
Ruger SR-762.
There. Wasn't that easy? And, it's gas system doesn't **** where it eats.
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Old 09-19-2014, 12:40 PM
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Ruger SR-762...it's gas system doesn't **** where it eats.
So what? Doesn't mean the Ruger can do anything the M&P-10 cannot. The Ruger isn't any more reliable, more accurate or any easier to clean. In fact, the piston of the Ruger is harder to clean, more difficult to keep lubed, subjected to more heat and is a smaller diameter than the piston of the M&P-10. Not seeing any advantage here
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Old 09-19-2014, 02:22 PM
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So what? Doesn't mean the Ruger can do anything the M&P-10 cannot. The Ruger isn't any more reliable, more accurate or any easier to clean. In fact, the piston of the Ruger is harder to clean, more difficult to keep lubed, subjected to more heat and is a smaller diameter than the piston of the M&P-10. Not seeing any advantage here
Reliability and accuracy are unique to each rifle. I'm sure there are individual M&P 10 rifles that are 'more accurate' or 'more reliable' than some SR762 rifles and there are also some SR762 rifles that are 'more accurate' or 'more reliable' than some M&P 10 rifles.

It takes me about 3 minutes to remove the piston from my SR762, clean it, and replace it. All I do is use a tooth brush and some Hoppe's #9 to clean the piston & its cylinder and I only do that once in every 10 or so range sessions. Lubrication of the piston is not required nor is it recommended. Light lubrication of the bolt & carrier is all that is recommended. So far as the Ruger piston being subjected to more heat than the M&P10 piston, please share how you measured the heat being applied to each piston. I'm genuinely curious. When you speak of the M&P10 piston I assume you are referring to its bolt?

Bud's has the M&P10 currently listed for $1269.00 and the SR762 for $1542.00. If I buy a M&P10 and add Samson BUIS, an aluminum forearm, and 2 additional PMags, (all of which are included with the Ruger) I'm going to spend right at $450.00. So now I've got the M&P10 I want & I've spent about $1700.00---BUT---I still don't have a piston rifle.

I started out trying to buy a M&P10 when they first came out. I couldn't find one and so I put it on hold for a while. When I started looking again I found the SR762 and gave it a hard look. After a while I bought one & I'm happy with it. Everybody gets to pick their own favorites and since the OP asked to be talked out of buying a M&P 10, I'm simply offering my experience.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:10 PM
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For me it was the 18" barrel being more important than the piston system. I like piston guns fine (I own a SCAR 17S), but don't have any problems with direct impingement either. Truthfully, I'd have been happy with either rifle.
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Old 09-20-2014, 01:13 PM
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Reliability and accuracy are unique to each rifle...Everybody gets to pick their own favorites and since the OP asked to be talked out of buying a M&P 10, I'm simply offering my experience.
The argument was put forth that the "piston" Ruger clearly makes it the "Easy Button" choice because of it's superiority. My point is that having the piston in the gas block does not make it better.

The standard AR system uses a piston and yes, it's the tail of the bolt. It's subjected to less heat for two reasons:
1) It's exposed to less gas
2) The gas cools after it enters the gas block and travels along the gas tube

As it is generally accepted that the PIGB (Piston In Gas Block) design is not to be lubed, coupled with the higher heat it's exposed to, carbon build up on the piston is hard, making it more difficult to remove. With the piston inside the carrier, the shooter only needs to occasionally add a drop or two of oil in the carrier exhaust port to help keep the carbon build up soft, making it easier to remove.

Is this reason enough to avoid the PIGB design of the Ruger? Of course not. We know the PIGB design in general is very successful. Take the M14, FAL and Garand, for example. But despite the internet propaganda, the PIGB design doesn't bring any advantages to the AR family of weapons and has it's own set of foibles
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Old 09-20-2014, 04:48 PM
Woodman90 Woodman90 is offline
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I can't speak about the Ruger 7.62, because I have no experience with one. You state the piston rifle isn't more reliable and many would argue that point. The AK-47 is considered by many to be on of the most reliable combat rifles to see action. Funny it happens to be a long stroke piston design. My M&P 10 would not shoot both suppressed and non suppressed reliable. My PWS MK220 shoots either without any issues,but it came from the factory with an adjustable gas block. My cleaning intervals increased dramatically when going to the piston rifle as well. Needless to say the M&P 10 found a new home. Not here to bash S&W because I have other S&W weapons, just saying there are two sides to every story.
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Old 09-20-2014, 05:38 PM
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Yes, the gas piston absolutely makes the Ruger better.
DI is an inferior gas system.
The receiver stays cleaner and cooler with a gas piston system.
A lot cooler and a lot cleaner.
I've never had to clean a gas piston as often as I had to clean my AR's BCG.
Besides, you don't lube a gas piston.
Gas pistons are run dry, or else, you get all the **** that you get in a DI BCG.

Gas piston guns don't have to be "run wet", like a DI system.
To claim otherwise is fooling yourself.
I got rid of my AR after buying my Daewoo, because the Daewoo is a superior rifle to the AR, because of the gas system.

Funny, how shooters slammed the Remington 742 because it needed to be run wet, yet the same fault somehow makes an AR15 great?

No more rifles that have to be kept pharmaceutically clean, for me.
I prefer guns that are reliable under all conditions.

Imagine, if Glocks had to be "run wet" and kept pharmaceutically clean in order to operate.
Nobody would buy them, except for AR fanboys.
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Old 09-20-2014, 06:43 PM
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Come on now, ARs don't need to be kept "pharmaceutically clean." That's nonsense. They DO need to be kept lubed, but clean? Not at all. There's tons of experiments people have run where they purposely put dirt in the action and magazines to prove that they run fine. You have to go to extremes with pouring handfuls of dirt right into them before they start having problems. Here's an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHwo...AmCEP-Tu6YliUQ

Certainly, I keep mine clean, but I keep my piston guns clean too. But will ARs run dirty? Yes, they will. Stop spreading nonsense.
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Old 09-20-2014, 09:05 PM
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Or, shoot them until they're dirty.
Stop kidding yourself.

TiN coatings and Failzero were created because they gag when they get nasty K1Aand hot.
My L1A1 and 'woo have never gagged. That's something I couldn't honestly say about my 15.
The K2 uses a long stroke gas piston instead of the DI system of the K1A1 BECAUSE the Jammamatic 16 gags when nasty and in extremely cold weather.
The K2 uses the best traits of the AR15 (lower/bolt & carrier style/magwell), AK(long-stroke gas piston), and FAL (adjustable gas regulator).
I had to grudgingly admit that Daewoo really got things right.

I was an AR fanboy. No more.

And, yes, ARs do need to be run wet and/or kept pharmaceutically clean to keep running.
That's why I switched to piston driven (against my own prejudices).

But, if you'd like me to stop spreading the disillusioning truth, I will.
Have a nice evening.
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Old 09-21-2014, 12:03 AM
MistWolf MistWolf is offline
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Heh! I'm gonna have to set my ARs down and explain to them they need to be kept "pharmaceutically clean" to run, because all of mine break the rules, including my M&P-10.

ARs use a piston and regardless of the internet chatter, are not a direct impingement system- unless you're going to call Eugene Stoner, the man who engineered the AR, a liar. He even states in his patent that the gas system is not a conventional direct impingement system and the US Patent Office agreed.

Fail Safe coatings on the carrier are nice but not necessary. The carrier hardly rubs in the upper anyway. If you go study how the carrier fits in the upper, you'll see the clearances are rather generous allowing the carrier to float as it moves back and forth. After thousands of rounds, the carrier of my AR shows little wear despite the fact it only gets wiped down now and then.

How much hotter does an AR receiver get? I shot several hundred rounds through an AR in a single afternoon. The stainless steel barrel turned a golden brown from the heat, the gasblock flashed water into steam, yet when I removed the carrier from the upper, it wasn't even warm enough to warm my hands. It's doom and gloom to barely warm up the carrier but it's ok to expose a smaller diameter piston to even greater heat? That does not compute.

As for the AK, so what if it's a long stroke piston? It's also a good three pounds heavier and still can't deal with the heat an AR carbine can. Compared to a 20 inch HBar that weighs the same as an AK? No contest.

I hope you're not running your L1A1 dry. It's a fine machine and deserves to be properly lubed. I don't run my FALs without lube, but as they are metric, maybe they just need it more. Common wisdom says don't lube the piston when it's in the gas block but it gets frustrating when the carbon build up at the FAL gas block makes removing the gas plug and piston for cleaning a pain. It would be nice to be able to lube that area to keep the fouling soft.

You don't have to take my word for any of this, nor do I care if you do. But, before you go spreading your wisdom about, you should do a little more studying how an AR actually works instead of just repeating what you read on the internet. In fact, I suggest you look up Stoner's original patents, study how the parts of the AR fit to each other and study how the laws of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics affect the gas system's operating pressures and temperatures before believing a word I say. It's rocket science, but it ain't complicated

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Old 09-21-2014, 12:30 AM
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Look up "Filthy 14" on Google. 40,000+ rounds and never cleaned. Fires like a champ. So the rest of us are either super lucky and Jaymo is right, or...
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Old 09-21-2014, 11:37 PM
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I put 400+ rounds(mostly tula) through my mp10 over the course of 3 months with no cleaning and no additional oil with zero malfunctions. My mp15 moe mid has seen 500+ rounds(mostly tula too)between cleanings as well with zero malfunctions. I don't run my rifles wet either, that just makes a mess. Its rather silly to make such a bold statement that piston is superior to gas. I don't care if its gas or piston, gets dirty or stays clean as long as it works. I've seen both platforms fail, so it will be very hard to convince me that either one is vastly superior to other based on my experiences. The whole pharmaceutically clean and running it wet bs is getting old.
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Old 09-22-2014, 04:15 PM
Veeper Veeper is offline
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Generally, people that claim AR's need to run clean don't, or haven't, run AR's; and if they have they've run them dry as a desert and then blamed any malfunction on the design.

Oh well! Haters gonna hate.
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  #48  
Old 10-12-2014, 10:03 AM
Scrateshooter Scrateshooter is offline
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Have you ever shot at a 1000yds before? I own a mp10 and would consider it a mid range rifle, 300-600yds. With practice and the right ammo you might be able to stretch that out to 800, a 1000yds is pushing it. If you want a long range precision rifle id look into a bolt gun in 300 or 338. I think having such high expectations of any semi auto 308 rifle is only going to lead to a let down or spending a ton of money. As far as customization goes your pretty limited when it comes to the mp10. It accepts standard ar furniture for the most part and the flash hider is removable. The factory trigger is outstanding in mine, clean break right at 4.5lbs. I have over 1200rds through it with zero malfunctions. Half of those rounds were tula and wolf. I'm a southpaw so the ambidextrous controls are a huge bonus to me. If your looking for a ar10 that you can swap barrels and internals on the mp10 is not for you. If your looking for a 1000yd 308 semi auto rifle the mp10 is not for you. If you want a accurate, reliable, ambidextrous, lightweight, 308 semi auto rifle and understand its capabilities, the mp10 is a good choice. Don't forget optics, at that distance you'll need a good scope and mount $$$$. Match grade 308 usually runs about $1.50-2.50rd if you don't reload. The thought of 1000yd shooting is thrown around way to often. It is difficult and expensive to achieve. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can shoot 1000yds with a 308, im just saying that it would be very difficult with a semi auto with a 18" barrel. Hope this helps, good luck on your 1000yd quest.
What he said. I've tried it, even bought a Noveske for my AR10. You'll shoot long range cheaper and easier with a factory remington or savage in a HS Precision stock and a Leupold Mk 4; the AR10 (or M1A) will cost double that and not even get close.

Plus, learning to shoot an semi long range is a whole other bag of tricks.
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  #49  
Old 10-12-2014, 10:05 AM
Scrateshooter Scrateshooter is offline
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I put 400+ rounds(mostly tula) through my mp10 over the course of 3 months with no cleaning and no additional oil with zero malfunctions. My mp15 moe mid has seen 500+ rounds(mostly tula too)between cleanings as well with zero malfunctions. I don't run my rifles wet either, that just makes a mess. Its rather silly to make such a bold statement that piston is superior to gas. I don't care if its gas or piston, gets dirty or stays clean as long as it works. I've seen both platforms fail, so it will be very hard to convince me that either one is vastly superior to other based on my experiences. The whole pharmaceutically clean and running it wet bs is getting old.
You better oil it unless you want to wear out the gas ring as well as wear the bolt to carrier fit.
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