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  #1  
Old 04-16-2015, 08:52 AM
Drag Drag is offline
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Default Short cycling resolved

I just want to share my experience with the forum in case it helps someone out, like you have for me repeatedly.

I changed the stock out on my M&P10 from the oem adjustable carbine stock to a Magpul PRS using the required full length A2 tube (DPMS). I did this prior to firing the rifle at all in its original configuration (my bad). I did use the required aluminum spacer from S&W.

At its first outing the gun would repeatedly short cycle. I was using NATO spec ZQ1 7.62x51 M80 initially. It would fire a round and eject but not pick up the following round. It did also stovepipe and not fully eject a few times as well. The two guys I was shooting with that day were both former Army and one was actually an armorer while in the service. He suggested we try different ammo - this time real mil-surplus 7.62x51 NATO taken off of a linked chain that my buddy got his hands on, but the same results. I also fired the rifle while my buddies observed the bolt cycling from the side, and they stated the bolt was clearly not going back far enough. We concluded the gun was under-gassed.

I went home, and checked everything. Bolt was wet. And I made sure the recently installed Troy low profile gas block was perfectly aligned, and I had even used Rocksett to secure the set screws. I relubed the bolt again.

At the second outing a couple weekends later, same result - short cycling. I was thinking that the rifle just needed to be "broken in" but admittedly this was getting worrisome. My (former armorer) buddy was shooting with me at the range again. We started discussing about my installation steps for the handrail, gas block, and Magpul PRS. When I mentioned it uses a spacer to make up for the longer length extension tube, he suggested that we try it without the spacer. So we removed the spacer, lessening the preload on the buffer spring.

PRESTO! The gun started functioning perfectly after that point. What a relief! We sighted in the scope enough so that we were repeatedly hitting a smaller size steel silhouette at 100yds.

The rifle still only has less than 50 rounds through it at this point, but I was ecstatic that it was finally working like it should. At the next range day, I'm gonna focus on the feel to see if the bolt is slamming/bottoming out. And if so I will put the S&W supplied spacer back in to see if it will function properly once more (after supposedly loosening up a bit). There's a chance I may need a shorter spacer than what is provided by S&W, but as for now the gun seems to be working fine without it installed.


Last edited by Drag; 04-16-2015 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 04-16-2015, 11:49 AM
Veeper Veeper is offline
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Thanks for the update! Great info here.
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Old 04-16-2015, 04:16 PM
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ZLDRider ZLDRider is offline
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Funny, I had the exact opposite happen to me when I installed the MagPul PRS buttstock. But then, my AR-15 is a Daniel Defense DDM4.

Perhaps the difference was that I also got a different spring for the buttstock. It was longer and came with a hard plastic spacer.

The rifle cycled fine prior to installing the new buttstock but, afterwards, it wouldn't fire. It felt like it was short cycling but, it looked like it was going through a full cycle.

I looked through the box and found the spacer and added it.

After that, my DDM4 fired fine.

Now that I've got that working, I'm thinking of adding an adjustable gas block to dial down the gas pressure to improve accuracy.

These things are definitely temperamental, aren't they. I try to keep it down to one change at a time then take it out to the range to test before I move onto another change.

I wonder why we had opposite experiences?
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Old 04-16-2015, 04:48 PM
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bergermeister bergermeister is offline
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Lightbulb Measure the length of the inside buffer tubes

If'n y'all would notice A2 Stock Issue and measure the inside of the stock S$W folder buffer tube and then the inside of the replacement buffer tube (whatever it is); then space the longer replacement tube with a spacer to make them equal, they will almost have to run the same (as was) with the stock S&W folder, buffer and spring Cheers!

[use the stock buffer and spring]

Last edited by bergermeister; 04-16-2015 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:08 PM
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Got that. I am using the stock buffer and spring.
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Old 04-16-2015, 05:40 PM
jcddoran jcddoran is offline
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Default Short Cycle

I had the close to the same problem with and AR I changed the buffer spring in. And when I did I added whats called a 'Twang Buster" Suppose to stop the rattle the buffer spring can make. I got it from Brownells. I fought with the problem for weeks until my dealer made a comment that got me thinking. Well, I took out the Twang Buster and all problems solved. My bolt finally locked back after the last round was fired, witch it would not do with the $5 Twang Buster.
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Old 04-16-2015, 06:41 PM
yqtszhj yqtszhj is offline
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I had the close to the same problem with and AR I changed the buffer spring in. And when I did I added whats called a 'Twang Buster" Suppose to stop the rattle the buffer spring can make. I got it from Brownells. I fought with the problem for weeks until my dealer made a comment that got me thinking. Well, I took out the Twang Buster and all problems solved. My bolt finally locked back after the last round was fired, witch it would not do with the $5 Twang Buster.
I use white lithium grease as my twang buster. My AR with an A2 stock came with it in there and I cleaned it out. After a few trips to the range and getting tired of hearing the ring after everg shot i put it back in. Twang gone.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:21 PM
syzorax syzorax is offline
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Thanks for that info! As I've just picked up my MP10! can you tell me what type of forearm or hand guard you have installed ?and you say a Troy low profile gas block? Is that adjustable? Not alot of LR308 compatible parts out there! At least that I can find. Anyone that can help I would greatly appreciate!

Last edited by syzorax; 04-16-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 04-17-2015, 12:19 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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Got that. I am using the stock buffer and spring.
So if I understand correctly, you have removed the required spacer to relieve the spring tension to get the gun to cycle and REMOVED THE MECHANICAL STOP THAT PROTECTS THE GUN AND YOU!

The Nato ammo you are trying to run is lower pressure thatn the gun is gassed for! The guns are gassed for US made Brass Hunting and match ammo at full pressures. They do not like the lower pressure rounds. If thet bolt overtravels with normal pressure rounds, bad things can happen! You are talking the bolt moving back two inches farther than it is supposed to!

That buffer had a hard rubber stop on it for a reason, a mechanical stop!

You are running stock spring and buffer, correct? Longer tube requires spacer!

Now if you want the gun to run lower pressure ammo, you will likely have to take the gas port from the stock .068 diameter to .075 to run cheap **** reliably.

Now take that as you wish before you break something!
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Old 04-17-2015, 09:13 AM
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Thanks copemech. You make a valid point. I'll reinsert the spacer and try some 175gr match ammo I have on hand for my 308 bolt. Apparently this saga isnt quite yet over.
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Old 04-17-2015, 12:44 PM
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Default Check out SLR adjustables

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Originally Posted by syzorax View Post
Thanks for that info! As I've just picked up my MP10! can you tell me what type of forearm or hand guard you have installed ?and you say a Troy low profile gas block? Is that adjustable? Not alot of LR308 compatible parts out there! At least that I can find. Anyone that can help I would greatly appreciate!
SLR adjustable Gas Blocks Good people, great adjustable gas blocks
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Old 04-17-2015, 01:59 PM
yqtszhj yqtszhj is offline
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True what copemech said, that ZQ1 ammo is the only ammo i have had a problem with In my m&p10. Everything else including xm80 works fine. ZQ1 groups terrable too.
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Old 04-17-2015, 10:15 PM
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My MP10 is in stock form and has ran ZQ1 ammo reliably so far.
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Old 04-18-2015, 12:43 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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After 1.5 years of fighting this gun, and much input from many, I could write a book on them! Not a good book! But not necessarily a bad gun!

If yours works and you are happy, great!

I want mine to eat anything, Tula , Wolf, foreign mil spec, us brass or whatever I have( or can get) if need be.

That magic number I threw out there on gas port size did not come out of my butt! Fact is my gun is at .073 right now. It works though. Is it ultimately reliable? Who knows. It was an experiment at the time.

.308 mid length, ok, I did not even get to finish my story speaking to this expert! He finished it for me.

Years of AR development, he knew immediately.

I am not gonna name names, but suffice to say he just runs a little website that begins with AR15.

You can always gas down with an adjustable gas block, mandatory if you are gonna run a suppressor. But you cannot gas up for lower pressure ammo the gun was not set up for, and from what I hear, if you do send the gun in for repair, all they will tell you is it worked fine using Remington 150 SP!

Be your own judge, look at your ejection pattern, needs to be about 3-4 oclock prolly, but this a bit different than the .223 round, yet same principals apply.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:41 PM
syzorax syzorax is offline
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Default LR308 Upgrades!

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SLR adjustable Gas Blocks Good people, great adjustable gas blocks
Thank you! Bergermiester.
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Old 04-19-2015, 07:41 PM
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OK, I have a problem with short cycling then as well. Now I know what to call it.

My story:

Thursday I finally got my M&P10 (sku 811308) and Friday night I headed over to a friend's house to get some parts fitted that I've had for awhile now. He has the workshop and all the AR tools a man can ask for.

Installed the Troy VTAC Alpha 308 LP 13" rail. Mostly because I've been more than happy with my M&P15 VTAC II. So big brother must look exactly like little brother. Of course to get this rail to fit a low profile gas block was needed. So installed the Troy .750 1" low profile gas block. Lubed the firearm and put it back together. Looked pretty sweet.

Got to the range Saturday and the first 20 rounds or so ran fine. Then it started to give failures to feed. Ejects the round just fine but fails to feed the next one from the magazine. Of course the first place I looked for the fault was the magazine. Had 4 there. 2 x Gen 3 PMags and 2 x Gen unknown PMags. All 20 rounders. Gave issues with all mags but it was intermittent. Sometimes it would work and other times 4 out of 5 shots you would have to rack the next round in yourself. Let's just say my charging handle and I really got to know each other on Saturday. The bolt would also fail to lock back after the last round, intermittently.

Now I'm not a gunsmith at all and figured it was just a new gun that needed running in but then again "we" did mess with it. I've looked at the bolt key and it is perfectly fine. Locked and pinned in. Didn't mess with that. My first guess, and I'm no gunsmith, is that the action isn't getting enough gas and thus doesn't have enough energy to take the bolt far enough back to chamber the next round. Could it be that the gas block is misaligned with the gas port on the barrel and thus not enough gas is coming through? Or is my choice of low profile gas block poor? Didn't see any mention of the gas block being only for AR15 platform.

What do you guys think could be the problem?

I see here the mentioning of ammo. We used the rifle at an open day so members of public could come and shoot various rifles. The ammo was the Norinco steeled cased surplus ammo. Don't have the name/specs of the ammo. Normally the Chinese ammo is not underpowered but then again I did not chrony it. Could it be the ammo?

P.S. The positive from the day:

1. Loved the Vortex Spitfire. Took it from the box. Mounted it on the gun and it was zeroed. Took it off during the day and put it back and it held it's zero.

2. Even though my M&P10 was a bolt gun most of the time the gun hits everything I put the sights on. Fine shooter.
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Old 04-19-2015, 08:08 PM
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Did you run that ammo before and not have any problems?

My guess is that the port in the block is misaligned or the ammo.
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Old 04-19-2015, 09:38 PM
yqtszhj yqtszhj is offline
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Try some different ammo I would say first.
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Old 04-20-2015, 12:36 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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That gas block works fine as long as it is aligned. The ammo is your culprit, but to make the gun run cheap ammo or mil spec, you would be advised to read my post above on gas port size in the barrel.

This really has nothing to do with the chrono speed of the bullet, but how fast the burn rate of the powder is and the associated pressure curves. The guns come gassed for slower burning, US made hunting ammo as used commonly in a 24" or so barrel to achieve full push!

Look at your ejection pattern and last round lock back as well.

The specific sizes I mentioned at .073- .075 do require specific number or letter drills in most cases, but they are cheap.

Enlarging the hole is easy enough with a quality sharp drill, just install a stop so you do not disturb the other side of the barrel bore. The metal is soft enough to drill easily without breaking a bit. If you do, you did not heed advise given by me and you likely have two thumbs in each hand, get help!
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Old 04-20-2015, 05:07 AM
potentpoefie potentpoefie is offline
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Enlarging the hole is easy enough with a quality sharp drill, just install a stop so you do not disturb the other side of the barrel bore. The metal is soft enough to drill easily without breaking a bit. If you do, you did not heed advise given by me and you likely have two thumbs in each hand, get help!
Hahaha....why do you think I took it to my friend with the tools and the workshop.

I'll try some other ammo and see what that does.

As for another question about the ejection pattern and if it locks back. With the open day it was too busy to really look at ejection patterns and it doesn't consistently lock back after the last shot.

As for how it worked with the factory setup. I never shot it in factory configuration. Yes, in hind sight that was a bad idea but time wasn't on my side. We needed the rifle Saturday.

I'll have to go to the gun shop and see what 308 ammo they have in stock. At the moment I have 1050 of the Norinco ammo and 200 rounds of PMC ammo. Would the PMC ammo be considered good ammo to test the rifle with?
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:03 AM
MistWolf MistWolf is offline
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Steel cased ammo is loaded to lower pressure because it's steel cased. If loaded to full pressure, the cases would stick in the chamber. Try the rifle with good commercial ammo.

The gas block may be misaligned. Most gas blocks are made to align to the gas port With the hand guard cap in place. If the block is pushed back against the shoulder, the port will be partially blocked

Last edited by MistWolf; 04-20-2015 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:22 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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Hahaha....why do you think I took it to my friend with the tools and the workshop.

I'll try some other ammo and see what that does.

As for another question about the ejection pattern and if it locks back. With the open day it was too busy to really look at ejection patterns and it doesn't consistently lock back after the last shot.

As for how it worked with the factory setup. I never shot it in factory configuration. Yes, in hind sight that was a bad idea but time wasn't on my side. We needed the rifle Saturday.

I'll have to go to the gun shop and see what 308 ammo they have in stock. At the moment I have 1050 of the Norinco ammo and 200 rounds of PMC ammo. Would the PMC ammo be considered good ammo to test the rifle with?
The fact it did not lock back is another sign of weak gas due to low pressure rounds. Not really sure the PMC would be better, possibly so, but the stock gun is gassed for US ammo like Rem, Fed or Win, 150 gr or better, pref 168 gr, as they do not seem to like the 150 for accuracy.

It seems to me that most gas blocks will accept the slight offset of the removal of the front plate, due to the fact that the hole in the block is larger than the gas port in the barrel. Add the fact the hole is many times chamfered a bit. But to align one really nice, one would need a dimpling jig to dimple the set screw opposite the port and lock it in to position. This puts the block back about .030-.035 or so as I recall from the machined step on the barrel. No guesswork!
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:56 PM
yqtszhj yqtszhj is offline
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Hahaha....why do you think I took it to my friend with the tools and the workshop.

I'll try some other ammo and see what that does.

As for another question about the ejection pattern and if it locks back. With the open day it was too busy to really look at ejection patterns and it doesn't consistently lock back after the last shot.

As for how it worked with the factory setup. I never shot it in factory configuration. Yes, in hind sight that was a bad idea but time wasn't on my side. We needed the rifle Saturday.

I'll have to go to the gun shop and see what 308 ammo they have in stock. At the moment I have 1050 of the Norinco ammo and 200 rounds of PMC ammo. Would the PMC ammo be considered good ammo to test the rifle with?
PMC worked ok in mine. It didn't group that well (about 2 1/2 in. groups) but no malfunctions in the one box I shot. ZQ1 malfunctions at least once per box, it short cycles.

Like Cope said try some Federal if you can find it.
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Old 04-23-2015, 05:50 PM
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My MP10 is in stock form and has ran ZQ1 ammo reliably so far.
I guess I jinxed myself. I can no longer say that ZQ1 has been trouble free in my MP10. I had about 10 rounds of it today that were not powerful enough to send the bolt carrier back far enough to either pick up the next round, or even lock the bolt back on an empty mag. I tried different mags just to eliminate the possibility of a defective Pmag.

So I stand corrected, now ZQ1 is the only ammo that I have tried so far that has given me issues with the MP10. Looks like I will be sticking with Federal, Remington, Hornady, PMC, Monarch and Perfecta.
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Old 04-23-2015, 08:08 PM
yqtszhj yqtszhj is offline
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I guess I jinxed myself. I can no longer say that ZQ1 has been trouble free in my MP10. I had about 10 rounds of it today that were not powerful enough to send the bolt carrier back far enough to either pick up the next round, or even lock the bolt back on an empty mag. I tried different mags just to eliminate the possibility of a defective Pmag.

So I stand corrected, now ZQ1 is the only ammo that I have tried so far that has given me issues with the MP10. Looks like I will be sticking with Federal, Remington, Hornady, PMC, Monarch and Perfecta.
Sorry man, didn't mean to do that to you. It's still good party ammo when you have visiting shooters that don't know the difference anyway.
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Old 04-23-2015, 09:09 PM
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Sorry man, didn't mean to do that to you. It's still good party ammo when you have visiting shooters that don't know the difference anyway.
LOL, true! It will slow them down and keep them from shooting up the good stuff.
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Old 04-24-2015, 12:16 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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Although my gun does seem to run cheap **** fine now with the minor gas port mod(Tula steel, Wolf steel, and the others) the accuracy of the ZQI was **** as well.

Seems I was getting 6-7 inch groups with it, the others a bit better, and the latest M80 us made mil surp seemed to run about 3in. All 150 gr ammo.

With the 168 gr stuff I have tried thus far, down to about two in. or better running the Amax or the Sierra HP or OTM match bullet.

Best thus far has been with the Australian Outback 165 gr soft point at around 1.5 which is a Hornady bullet I think.

I am now looking to refine a bit with some handloads to see how that works out.
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Old 04-24-2015, 04:36 AM
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Hmmm....thing is in SA good old Federal etc. is not always available and if it is, it's at a premium price.

I've not had a chance to go shoot the rifle this week as I planned to do but this coming weekend is a 3 day weekend so I'm sure I'll have a gap to go shoot it with some other ammo. Also got some good tips to try out and make sure the gas block is aligned properly from another forum.

I'll just be happy when this rifle is functioning like its little brother. I've been more than happy with my M&P15. So I'm sure we'll get this sorted out.

If it's just the ammo I'll have to start handloading in bulk then. 3GN eats a lot of ammo.

I was looking at running 168 grainers or heavier seeing this rifle has a 1 in 10" twist rate. Should do fine with heavier bullets.

I've not shot the rifle for groups yet but at our club's open day this past weekend it hit all the steel I could put the sights on and steel and I have a hate hate relationship.
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Old 04-24-2015, 10:58 PM
yqtszhj yqtszhj is offline
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Although my gun does seem to run cheap **** fine now with the minor gas port mod(Tula steel, Wolf steel, and the others) the accuracy of the ZQI was **** as well.

Seems I was getting 6-7 inch groups with it, the others a bit better, and the latest M80 us made mil surp seemed to run about 3in. All 150 gr ammo.

With the 168 gr stuff I have tried thus far, down to about two in. or better running the Amax or the Sierra HP or OTM match bullet.

Best thus far has been with the Australian Outback 165 gr soft point at around 1.5 which is a Hornady bullet I think.

I am now looking to refine a bit with some handloads to see how that works out.
I agree 100% on ZQ1. Also 100% on the 165gr. Australian Outback. This pic is of shots playing around with different types of ammo. I pulled one of the shots at 50 yds. and called it when I pulled the trigger. The 100 yard group was what the Outback 165gr. will do in mine. I bought a bunch of it when I saw how it shoots.

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Old 04-25-2015, 01:58 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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I wish I had the charts and graphs to post to you so you could make more sense out of this, but I do not.

Long story short, the 7.62 and some lesser .308 rounds may not cycle correctly in the gun due to fast burning powders.

The MP10 gas port is set for US hunting ammo with slower burn and higher pressure at the gas port for a full push in a long rifle(bolt gun). At .068 in.

By the time the bullet has travelled past the gas port, the quick powders have lost their pressure level, requiring more gas at the lower pressure to work the action because it is highly restricted.

In my tests, and where mine is still, the change in gas port size from .068 to .073 has thus far allowed proper cycling with all ammo I have tried or had problems with. I have since been recommended the .075 size for somewhat ultimate reliability by other pros in the field. I know I am close.

Excess gas can cause unnecessary harshness in the cycling operation, but that is where adjustable gas blocks come in. My little DPMS AR carbine was this way, eat anything but harsh!

Really, it is a 10 min. fix on the 10! Pull handguard, remove gas block, enlarge port using #49 drill to go .073. Use quality drill and it goes like butter!

The jump to .075 requires a 1.9mm drill, and I do not have one on hand, but a quick lookup online indicates they are a whopping two bucks or so!

Put a stop on it so you don't nick the other side of the rifling. Then reassemble, blow out the barrel and swab it.. Done.

Accuracy loads, that is another issue! 150 gr seems out of the picture at this point. I am wondering about 175's but have no feedback at this time. Bet reports have been in 165-168 range thus far.

Last edited by copemech; 04-25-2015 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:07 AM
Drag Drag is offline
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Hey copemech -

Thanks for that. Is there a method to remove the possible burr in the bore from the drilling operation? An additional challenge I have is that I used Rocksett for the set screws on my low profile gas block. Uggh.

Anyway, I may have an opportunity to go to the range this week and will try some 168 and 175 grain 308 win match ammo.
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Old 04-27-2015, 01:44 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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Hey copemech -

Thanks for that. Is there a method to remove the possible burr in the bore from the drilling operation? An additional challenge I have is that I used Rocksett for the set screws on my low profile gas block. Uggh.

Anyway, I may have an opportunity to go to the range this week and will try some 168 and 175 grain 308 win match ammo.
Obviously one would want to blow out the bore and run a patch or boresnake through it before fireing, but that is all that is necessary.

With red locktite or similar products, heat is the answer. Typically up to around 250F, which may require a small torch if things don't move. Heat is your friend here and I doubt there is anything you will damage with a propane torch.


I have no reports on 175, but would like some! I am handloading some 168 Amax at the moment, trying the 175 range could happen later, wish we had others input here.

Last edited by copemech; 04-27-2015 at 01:48 AM.
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  #33  
Old 04-27-2015, 05:07 PM
MistWolf MistWolf is offline
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Soak Rockset in water to soften it
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Old 05-02-2015, 10:23 AM
Drag Drag is offline
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Here's my latest range report with my M&P10. I had reinserted the spacer as wisely advised. My experience is that my rifle simply just doesnt like 147/149gr 7.62NATO. I tried Federal, ZQI, Winchester, as well as mil surplus ball - all no go. It just short cycles which parallels others' experiences. However, it clearly loves the heavier PPU 168gr Match! That stuff is definitely hotter and the rifle cycled through 40 rounds with no hiccups. So I'm sticking with 168gr 308Win if not heavier for now, which is what I should be shooting anyway with the rifle's 1:10 5R barrel.

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Old 05-02-2015, 02:13 PM
yqtszhj yqtszhj is offline
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I like your setup. What kind of group could you get using PPU?
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Old 05-04-2015, 04:52 AM
potentpoefie potentpoefie is offline
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Originally Posted by potentpoefie View Post
Hmmm....thing is in SA good old Federal etc. is not always available and if it is, it's at a premium price.

I've not had a chance to go shoot the rifle this week as I planned to do but this coming weekend is a 3 day weekend so I'm sure I'll have a gap to go shoot it with some other ammo. Also got some good tips to try out and make sure the gas block is aligned properly from another forum.

I'll just be happy when this rifle is functioning like its little brother. I've been more than happy with my M&P15. So I'm sure we'll get this sorted out.

If it's just the ammo I'll have to start handloading in bulk then. 3GN eats a lot of ammo.

I was looking at running 168 grainers or heavier seeing this rifle has a 1 in 10" twist rate. Should do fine with heavier bullets.

I've not shot the rifle for groups yet but at our club's open day this past weekend it hit all the steel I could put the sights on and steel and I have a hate hate relationship.
Update:

The rifle has not been touched since it last gave issues. That includes no lube, no cleaning.
I got to the range with some PMC Bulk Ammo. Loaded up the first mag. Shot it slowly and no issues.

Wondering if maybe some people "limp wristed" (or whatever you will call it for a rifle) I gave it to my friend to shoot. This would be his second time shooting a firearm and figured if a noob error would be induced he would be the man for the job. Functioned just fine.

Then I ran the gun fast and hard. Still no issues. The PMC bulk ammo isn't exactly top quality ammo but it still worked. So conclusion is that the fault was definitely ammo related. So the M&P 10 issue needing to be run in for a couple of hundred rounds with full power loads seems to have been my issue.

Now that that is sorted out I figure I have enough PMC ammo left to just run our first ever 3 Gun Nation South Africa nationals with Heavy Optics division (only because I don't feel like putting down my Versamax for a 870). Happiness is a functioning gun.

P.S. Of course the guy that worked on the gun originally was on hand and ready with an "I told you so". He was always sure he did a good job on the alignment. For him it was a matter of pride.
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Old 05-05-2015, 10:34 PM
Drag Drag is offline
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I like your setup. What kind of group could you get using PPU?
Too early to tell. I was really more focused on function than outright accuracy this past time out. At my next session, I will shoot for groups. Im just heavily relieved to have observed that the rifle works as intended.
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  #38  
Old 05-05-2015, 11:52 PM
copemech copemech is offline
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Too early to tell. I was really more focused on function than outright accuracy this past time out. At my next session, I will shoot for groups. Im just heavily relieved to have observed that the rifle works as intended.
Just a note for your consideration, Freedom Munitions sells reman using the premium 168 Hornady A-max bullet for aroun $17 a box as I recall.

Works well and free shipping for first time buyers.

Shipping is slow, but!
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2015, 11:18 AM
Rjin316 Rjin316 is offline
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Want to add my own experience....my rifle short stroked like crazy. I first shot maybe 50 rounds completely stock to check function and it short stroked maybe 5 times with 145 gr ppu. Didnt short stroke with ppu 168 gr bthp. I thought it was just break-in, so i called it good and installed luth-ar stock with dpms rifle length buffer tube and s&w supplied spacer. Shot over 250 rds after install and it was short stroking pretty much everything i put in it. Some ammo will short stroke more than others it seems. It short stroked a lot with 145 gr ppu which i thought was normal during break-in, but it would still short stroke occasionally with black hills 168 and federal 168, even after 200 rds shot. After i cleaned and re-lubed, i took it out again with freedom 168gr a-max and bthp and it started off short stroking every 5 rds or so but it got progressively worse as the bcg soaked that lube up. When i got to the a-max rds, it literally short stroked every round. Also i can hear and feel the bcg cycling when shooting as it was slightly delayed. Also, i always thought the action on this gun was pretty stiff since day one, but it was somewhat noticeably stiffer when i went with the rifle length stock. So obviously i was pretty frustrated that after 300 plus rds, it was still short stroking. So i decided to remove the spacer to see what would happen. INSTANT FIX. None of the rds including the 145gr ppu were short stroking. I didnt feel the bcg cycling slightly after the round goes off like before, but now it feels like the gun is firing and cycling at the same time. Charging the gun doesnt take much effort as it used to. It still takes a little more effort than a standard ar15, but it doesnt feel like i need to work out to charge the gun anymore.
Im gonna call sw to see what the deal is here...

Recap:
Installed spacer for rifle length stock, still short stroking after 300 plus rds of all types, i could feel and hear the bcg being slightly delayed after round goes off, removed spacer and gun functions perfectly. Who knew....
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  #40  
Old 06-09-2015, 12:45 AM
copemech copemech is offline
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Originally Posted by Rjin316 View Post
Want to add my own experience....my rifle short stroked like crazy. I first shot maybe 50 rounds completely stock to check function and it short stroked maybe 5 times with 145 gr ppu. Didnt short stroke with ppu 168 gr bthp. I thought it was just break-in, so i called it good and installed luth-ar stock with dpms rifle length buffer tube and s&w supplied spacer. Shot over 250 rds after install and it was short stroking pretty much everything i put in it. Some ammo will short stroke more than others it seems. It short stroked a lot with 145 gr ppu which i thought was normal during break-in, but it would still short stroke occasionally with black hills 168 and federal 168, even after 200 rds shot. After i cleaned and re-lubed, i took it out again with freedom 168gr a-max and bthp and it started off short stroking every 5 rds or so but it got progressively worse as the bcg soaked that lube up. When i got to the a-max rds, it literally short stroked every round. Also i can hear and feel the bcg cycling when shooting as it was slightly delayed. Also, i always thought the action on this gun was pretty stiff since day one, but it was somewhat noticeably stiffer when i went with the rifle length stock. So obviously i was pretty frustrated that after 300 plus rds, it was still short stroking. So i decided to remove the spacer to see what would happen. INSTANT FIX. None of the rds including the 145gr ppu were short stroking. I didnt feel the bcg cycling slightly after the round goes off like before, but now it feels like the gun is firing and cycling at the same time. Charging the gun doesnt take much effort as it used to. It still takes a little more effort than a standard ar15, but it doesnt feel like i need to work out to charge the gun anymore.
Im gonna call sw to see what the deal is here...

Recap:
Installed spacer for rifle length stock, still short stroking after 300 plus rds of all types, i could feel and hear the bcg being slightly delayed after round goes off, removed spacer and gun functions perfectly. Who knew....
You need to ck some lengths on components. That spacer is there for a reason. It is a mechanical stop for bolt travel. Just sayin,
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  #41  
Old 06-09-2015, 08:06 AM
Rjin316 Rjin316 is offline
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You need to ck some lengths on components. That spacer is there for a reason. It is a mechanical stop for bolt travel. Just sayin,
I definitely need to check lengths. Maybe some of you can help me out.... I first want to know what the weight of the buffer is. Is it a standard ar15 buffer? I was under the impression it is a "carbine" buffer, but proprietary to s&w? Theres some confusion to that. Anyway, my buffer seems to be heavier than my ar15 carbine buffer, but havent weighed it. Next, the length of the buffer spring. Next the length of the s&w spacer.

Are your guy's actions really stiff (difficult to charge)? I mean even after lots of lubing, when that spacer was in there, it was pretty darn stiff. Like i think i need to work out more stiff. Even doing simple things like press-checking was unusually difficult. After spacer removal, while still stiffer than a standard ar15, charging the gun felt much smoother. I can do press checks w/o holding it against a body part.

I did check gas alignment with compressed air and it was gtg.

I will say that the only ammo that runs well is black hills 168. Out of 60 rds, i only had 1 or 2 short stroke failures. Whereas, federal gmm 168 had 3 ss failures in only 20 rds. Ppu 168gr does no better than ppu 145gr as far as failure rate. Whats really weird is that sometimes i only get a couple failures the entire range sessions even shooting the 145gr's. Then the next day, they fail almost every other round it seems like. What really put it over the edge was with the freedom munitions 168gr rds as they failed constantly with a-max's ftf rate 1/1.

Again, even when its not short stroking, the round fires and i can feel a slight delay in the cycling even when it does pick up the next round. When it short strokes, the delay is even more noticeable. Kind of like "BANG-CYCLE" when its supposed to be like "BA-cycle-NG".

It really does look and feel like the buffer system is dicked up in some way. Either the spring is too stiff, too long, or the buffer is way heavier than it is supposed to be. Every other person who experienced short stroking issues in their m&p that i read short strokes only with nato rds or pretty much any round 150grs or less. As soon as they run heavier gr bullets, their problem goes away. Not mine...
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2015, 04:24 PM
Rjin316 Rjin316 is offline
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After closer inspection, the buffer weight is the same as my carbine buffer from my ar15. And the bottom part of the bcg where the bottom rails are, made some nice gouges on my lower receiver extension threads. Luckily the gouges dont affect the buffer tube placement but...phew. I also noticed that my bcg was bone dry which tells me it soaks up lube like crazy....i only shot maybe just over 60 rds last time out and i just lubed before i started shooting, and the entire bcg was bone dry afterward.

So i can only think of 2 problems....the bcg just soaks up lube way too fast, hence it getting progressively worse the last time out. Maybe i need to run some grease or froglube or something (using break-free LP now). Or, its under-gassed due to the gas port being too small. I did install a .750 LP gas block and the port size on the block was bigger than the gas port on the barrel which should be normal. Again, alignment is good. I really cant think of anything else. Im gonna try to go out today and im gonna drench the bcg in lube to see if that helps. Ill update...
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2015, 11:24 PM
copemech copemech is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjin316 View Post
I definitely need to check lengths. Maybe some of you can help me out.... I first want to know what the weight of the buffer is. Is it a standard ar15 buffer? I was under the impression it is a "carbine" buffer, but proprietary to s&w? Theres some confusion to that. Anyway, my buffer seems to be heavier than my ar15 carbine buffer, but havent weighed it. Next, the length of the buffer spring. Next the length of the s&w spacer.

Are your guy's actions really stiff (difficult to charge)? I mean even after lots of lubing, when that spacer was in there, it was pretty darn stiff. Like i think i need to work out more stiff. Even doing simple things like press-checking was unusually difficult. After spacer removal, while still stiffer than a standard ar15, charging the gun felt much smoother. I can do press checks w/o holding it against a body part.

I did check gas alignment with compressed air and it was gtg.

I will say that the only ammo that runs well is black hills 168. Out of 60 rds, i only had 1 or 2 short stroke failures. Whereas, federal gmm 168 had 3 ss failures in only 20 rds. Ppu 168gr does no better than ppu 145gr as far as failure rate. Whats really weird is that sometimes i only get a couple failures the entire range sessions even shooting the 145gr's. Then the next day, they fail almost every other round it seems like. What really put it over the edge was with the freedom munitions 168gr rds as they failed constantly with a-max's ftf rate 1/1.

Again, even when its not short stroking, the round fires and i can feel a slight delay in the cycling even when it does pick up the next round. When it short strokes, the delay is even more noticeable. Kind of like "BANG-CYCLE" when its supposed to be like "BA-cycle-NG".

It really does look and feel like the buffer system is dicked up in some way. Either the spring is too stiff, too long, or the buffer is way heavier than it is supposed to be. Every other person who experienced short stroking issues in their m&p that i read short strokes only with nato rds or pretty much any round 150grs or less. As soon as they run heavier gr bullets, their problem goes away. Not mine...
Read my post #9 above. Yes, I use a light coating of grease on my bolt slides, moly or hi quality wheel bearing waterproof grease.

Not sure about the DPMS tube you have,,or if theirs differ between standard AR and .308, but I think the 2" spacer is designed to put a standard AR rifle tube back to the necessary dimension for the stock and standard carbine buffer and spring so your working length does not change from stock. Therefore inside depth is 2" longer than the stock tube. Although I have not changed mine, others have without issue.

And yes, they are stiff compared to an AR.
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  #44  
Old 06-09-2015, 11:24 PM
Rjin316 Rjin316 is offline
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Well i feel like a dumb ***. I found out what the problem was. Not enough lube.... Im so used to my ar15 running 200 plus rounds with only a few drops of oil on each rail that i thought the same would hold true with this gun. Too optimistic... The few drops weren't enough so it really did soak it up real quick....it started choking right away. This thing was bone-dry at around 60 rds. It really Ran flawless today after i applied LP on the rails like mustard on a hot dog. The freedom 168 a-max was the only fail today...pretty much too light of a load and wouldn't cycle the gun. Also noticed the groups opening way up when the lighter loads fire, which were most of them. I ran some 150gr and fed gmm right after to confirm and it ran them both fine. I emailed freedom about it already so we'll see what happens.
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Old 09-12-2017, 05:52 PM
fluxican fluxican is offline
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Copemech, I found your advice in this thread very helpful. My M&P 10 would not cycle Lehigh Defense 145g Controlled Chaos ammo (March 2016), but works flawlessly now after I enlarged the gas port per your recommendations A local gunsmith charged me only $20 for the modification. I would suggest anyone wanting to use Lehigh's controlled chaos line enlarge the gas port first (I've read posts elsewhere talking about Lehigh's factory load of the 145g being a bit light). My rifle was completely stock when I first experienced this problem, so although I would say it is actually more of an ammo problem, I wanted to be able to use this ammo & enlarged the gas port.
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