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Old 03-12-2016, 07:29 PM
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M&P 10 FTF, break-in issues and reloads M&P 10 FTF, break-in issues and reloads M&P 10 FTF, break-in issues and reloads M&P 10 FTF, break-in issues and reloads M&P 10 FTF, break-in issues and reloads  
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Default M&P 10 FTF, break-in issues and reloads

My first two range trips with my new MP10 have not gone very well. Here is a pretty detailed thread in hopes contributors might have some tips before I consider contacting S&W.

New M&P 10 (stock) with Nikon M308 scope. 95 rounds fired thru the firearm with FTF on reloads but not factory loads. I have two stock SW 10 round mags and one 25 round Magpul. Here is the sequence of firings and symptoms for the first two range outings with the new the rifle. When FTFs were encountered I tried switching magazines and the problem seemed consistent regardless of the mag used:

Range Day1:

A. 12 Factory Winchester 150 gr: NO issues

B. 10 Home Loads: 168 Hornady HPBT and IMR4064 new PPU brass with 41.3gr: First three cycled fine and then 7 FTF. Brass ejects but bullet left in mag (short stroke? Not enough lube? Both?)

C. 8 Factory Winchestor 150gr: No issues

D. 5 Home Loads (above): All FTF

Firearm brought home, cleaned and lubed. I reloaded both the Winchester once fired brass and the once fired PPU brass with 44 gr of IMR4064 thinking my initial loads were too light to cycle the MP10 (no gas block adjustment so I tweaked the powder load)

Range Day2:

Control group 1: 150 grain Winchester Factory: No FTF

Control Group 2: 10 rounds new PPC brass of 165 grain SPBT with 41.3 grains of powder The first three rounds were perfect, then problems started and they 100% FTF

Control Group 3: 10 rounds of once fired PPC brass reloads with 44 grains of powder. Mixed results: 50% FTF

Control Group 4: 6 rounds of once fired Lake City brass with 165 grain bullet and 43 grains of powder. 100% FTF

Control Group 5: 20 rounds Once fired Winchester brass with 168 grain bullet and 44 grains of powder. Mixed results: Some of these rounds really got crunched while jamming at the feed ramp. The cases were badly damaged and beyond the ability to chamber.

Control Group 6: Once fired PPC brass with 168 grain bullet and 44 grains of powder. Mixed Results: estimate 75% good, 25% FTF

Notes: Upon cleaning the rifle the second time, I noted lots of brass shavings in the bolt chambering area and 50 percent of the fired brass had dents/scrapes near the shoulder and on the case neck. Feed Ramp? New Mags?

My Questions: The forum notes indicate that a breakin of at least 200 rounds is needed and lots of lube. The forum notes on the reload topic also indicate that too much pressure on reloads can cause FTF. However, with a lighter load, it seems the rifle short strokes to the point where the bolt carrier does not even go back far enough to catch the next round from the mag. More powder results in jams at the feed ramp.

Is the recommendation to pump another 100 rounds thru the rifle before tuning reloads?

Should I consider polishing the feed ramp?

Should I consider a power switch?

Side note: I am new to SA Rifle reloading (but not to pistol reloading, I have 8K rounds of pistol reloading bench and range time for 9mm all the way to 50AE). I have done much research on the rifle round reloading minutia and case guage/length/headspace importance. I use Dillon xl650, case guage and carbide dies.

Thanks in advance for offered tips.
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Old 03-13-2016, 12:55 AM
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On the FTF, did you try a second strike to see if they fire? I'm wondering if the primers aren't seated enough.

On the brass filings, something isn't right.

How are you lubing your bolt carrier group? Initially, you do want to run the rifle wet for while, though ARs in general tend to prefer to be run wet than dry as a general rule. After they have been used for a while, you can lighten up on the lube if dust and dirt is a concern. As far as the number of rounds, 200 is a good number but like ammunition brands and loads, every rifle is different as to what works best for that particular rifle.
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Old 03-13-2016, 10:21 AM
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On most of the FTFs, pulling the charging handle all the way back will strip a round out of the mag and chamber the round without issue. The reloads fire without issue and are fairly accurate and the brass ejects fine. I have a uBucc catcher but have not been using it since FTFs are so frequent that I need to be able to see if the chamber is clear before manually re-chambering a new round.

Yesterday, I gave the cleaned brass a good look over with a 10x jewelers lope. Most brass has two parallel grooves carved into the brass. I disassembled the mags and cleaned them. Should I consider using 2000 grit and sand the lower edge of the feed lips?

In addition, the a majority of the brass had some deep gouges (in addition to the long parallel grooves) that make the brass unreloadable. (See pictures)

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...RFKPMSjwnvwmyj

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...-GlRGNCM6lJEij

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...l4YaJnAhA0WRSE




Lube: I was running just TW-25 grease on the bolt, gas rings and bold carrier rails.

After reviewing the forum for tips, I oiled up the bolt "wet" with Hoppes and dropped oil in the access holes thru the bolt carrier to slop up the gas rings on the bolt after it was installed into the carrier. I have not fired the rifle yet with the "wet" oiling method, yet.

The next time at the range, I plan on trying the reloads, first, and then the factory loads to allow the reloads to function on 'fresh' oil.

I may be debugging a few issues here: Lube, Mag feed lips, Reload recipe. Given that I have to chunk the nickel brass after 1 firing, want to get the mag/feed friction issue addressed. Given that many forum members have had success with reloads in the M&P10, I know that the firearm should be a bit less finicky with its food.

I will report back in a week or two on my Range Trip 3 on how the firearm performs.
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:37 AM
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I can't pull the pictures up. Sanding the rails on the magazines wouldn't hurt anything. As far as the other scratches, since I can't see the pictures, I'm not going to try venturing a guess. I have noticed the steel magazines are pretty rough on the brass. I may have to switch to all Pmags to get away from that since I would like to reload the used brass myself.

I'm confused on the reloads. Unless, I'm reading your first post incorrectly, I get the impression that most of your FTF issues are with the reloads, even on the second and third reading. What am I missing?
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:14 PM
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By FTF do you mean Failure to Feed or Failure to Fire?

If factory rounds shoot fine I dare say the problem is with your reloads and not the gun. Almost all semi-autos will put scratches and dings on the brass during firing to some extent.

What dies are you using and how are they set up?

Just re-read your first post. Folks seem to have luck doing it but I don't like to load bottle neck rifle on a progressive press. I think flexing/play often keep a case from being fully re-sized and bumping the shoulder back. Try sizing some cases in a single stage press. Make sure the die is adjusted down enough that the shell holder makes contact with the die while sizing. I assume you are trimming the cases.

IMR 4064 is a great powder for .308 and should run in a semi-auto rifle. My M&P 10 ran just fine with re-loads.

Good luck.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:30 AM
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I handload for the M&P 10 so here's a couple new questions. (1) What OAL are your loads? (2) Did you check your brass with a Wilson headspace gauge? That's a way to be sure the shoulder is in the exact position it should be (I.E. resize die position) which is critical in semi-auto rifles.

I had the same problem and found my rifle didn't like 2.780" or longer OAL. With Sierra 165 HPBT bullets it worked perfectly at 2.750" OAL. Just throwing a couple things out there to look at. Good luck.
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:16 AM
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Range report 3/26/2013 and first some answers to previous posts:
1. FTF = Failure to Feed in this context
2. Reloading done in Dillon 650 but in two stages. First a die holder is with only the sizing die installed and is used to size the cases. Then the cases are gauged, then trimmed. Next, another die holder is set up with the powder drop, powder check, bullet seating and crimping die. So, in essence, my process is sizing the cases as if single stage press and then use the Dillon 308 sizing gauge to verifying gage depth on base and mouth. Plus, I use a 10X jewelers loop lens to examine the case in the gauge for accuracy.
3. Each case is hand gauged and trimmed. So, prior to loading all cases are very consistent in size.
4. AOL of reloads is 2.743

Range Report trip 3 sequence:

8 rounds factory Winchester feed and fire without issues

3 Reloads 168 gr Hornaday HPBT would not strip a round off mag

30 rounds factory Winchester feed and fire without issues

10 Reloads 6:10 feed and fire without issue. 4 failure to strip round out mag and last round would not leave the bolt carrior in open position

10 rounds of factory Winchester feed and fire with out issues

10 reloads 8:10 feed and fire without issue. 2 feed ramp jams

10 reloads 7:10 feed and fire without issue. 3 not stripped from mag and last round left the bolt carrier in open position.

Installed a Limb-saver pad on the stock made shooting much more comfortable this range trip.

My reloads seem to have more power than the factory loads, even though they are loaded on the lower side of the Lyman's' recipe range. Is there a sweet spot in terms of bullet velocity/gas pressure that ensure enough gas is ported back to the bolt carrier to ensure adequate return in the back position to strip of another round or hold the carrier back on the last round? Can too much pressure have an impact on bolt carrier performance on an SA rifle?

Last edited by TexasAlko; 03-27-2016 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:50 AM
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Ok, my bad. I was reading that as failure to fire.

What type of sizing die are you using? Full length or neck? It sounds like you are looking at all the critical measurements but obviously, something is missing to be continually having feed problems. From everything I seen on Dillon, it isn't the press. They are perhaps the best progressive press on the market, as long as they are setup right and the right dies are used.
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Old 03-27-2016, 02:58 PM
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Dillon 308 Carbide full length dies are used. After adjusting, the cases fit into the Dillon gauge perfectly. Note that the reloads chamber and fire fine with pretty good accuracy, too. It just seems that not enough pressure after the round is fired to push the bold carrier back far enough. When a round does not get stripped from the mag, pulling the slide back manually and releasing will strip a round from the mag and it will chamber just fine.

At this point, running the lube with "wet" Hoppes has helped as the percentage of successful reloads has gone up. Plus the MP now has almost 200 rounds fired thru it.

The SW magazine lip polishing helped, too, in that I no longer have the parallel gouges & grooves on the cases. A shooter at the range that also reloads for SA rifles offered a tip that the grooves gouges on the brass may be from the feed ramps and that they would go away as the firearm is broken in. I noticed that when I cleaned the firearm, today, there were very few brass flakes in the chamber area than the first two times I cleaned the gun after range time.

A new variable to consider per my neighbor's input: The Winchester are flat base bullets where as my reloads are boat tail. He offered that perhaps the boat tail shape is letting more gas past the bullet before it can bleed thru the gas port to pressurize the bolt carrier. I was doubtful since the bullet diameter at the max for the HPBT should still be 308. They are Hornaday rounds and I did not measure each round for consistency.

So many variables to consider...at least the range time included some SW Model52 action with reloads using nickel brass. I call the rounds Werewolf Silver and the satisfaction of building accurate rounds gives inspiration on tuning the MP10. I paid the premium for an accurate, yet versatile firearm. The finicky nature of its ammo consumption is helping me tune my reloading skills. Thanks to all that helped me with input. Range trip 4 results will be posted in a few weeks.
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:06 PM
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Ok, so things are smoothing out but your still short stroking a bit. Where are you on the reload recipe you are using. Is there room to bump up the powder charge to figure out what the sweet spot is in order to get every round to feed every time?
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:02 PM
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If you single load your reloads will the bolt lock back every time?

I'll admit this has me a bit baffled. My M&P 10 was reliable with everything from surplus 7.62 to Federal Gold Medal Match and all of my reloads.

IMR 4064 is a good powder for .308 and your loads sound plenty stout to operate your rifle. My go-to load with IMR-4064 is 42.8 grains behind a 168 grain match HPBT in LC brass at an OAL of 2.80". This is a virtual match for Federal match ammo and has almost identical velocity in my rifles..

It should not matter if a bullet is flat base or boat tail.

Where is your brass ejecting? A properly gassed AR pattern rifle should put the brass about 3:00 to 4:30 o'clock. Forward of that is over-gassed and behind that under-gassed.
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Old 02-04-2017, 10:17 AM
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Default Updates on M&P 10 break in and reloads: Case Lube issue?

In September 2016, ran 140 rounds of factory ammo thru the rifle without any FTF (failure to feed). About midway thru the session, I tried some of my reloads again and they FTF's, crunching the neck of the case. I quit using them after the first two FTFs. In addition, I tried them in my buddy's Kel-Tek 308 bull pup with the same results.

Given that my reload cases are dimensioned and guaged using factory ammo as a model, another variable that I can think of (assuming I don't have a pad powder lot or primer lot) is that I did not remove the case lube from the rounds upon completion. Could this cause feeding issues? The lube was homemade using lanoline and .99 alcohol.

Yesterday, I cleaned the finished rounds with alcohol and then wiped them with Cabela's media wax/polish. The finished rounds are extremely slick, now. The cases were not 'gummy' from the lube but there is a definite difference between lubed vs. polished.

Only variables left are:

1. Powder Drop errors: I may disassemble the reloads if I have issues with the rounds. Then do a powder measure audit and see if there are inconsistencies between the rounds. (I have a Dillon powder check so if there are differences in charge amounts, they should have been detected during the initial loading process. )

2. Bad Power Lot
3. Bad Primer Lot
4. Crimp. Should I go tighter?


As always, your feedback is welcome and considered.

During the shooting session described above, I also fired 300 rounds of .223 out of a brand new (cleaned, lubed) M&P 15 and zero issues with the factory ammo OR reloads.

The 308 issues that I am having are the only round that I have ever loaded that I have had this much trouble with reliability. I have ruled out the firearm since it loves factory ammo.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:04 PM
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Thanks for the update.

Have you actually confirmed your powder is 4064 and the amount in the loaded rounds?

While about anything is possible I'm not convinced there is not a problem with your die setup or the sizing die itself.

A few things I would try.
- check the powder and amount.
- check sizing die adjustment. The top of the shell holder should be snug against the bottom of the die when sizing. Generally, I adjust the die down until it touches the shell holder, lower the ram then another 1/8 to 1/4 turn down.
- Try a different sizing die. I have an 80s vintage RCBS FL sizing die that has worked fine for numerous .308 rifles over the years, semi and bolt.
- Try some loads with NO crimp.

Let us know.
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Old 02-04-2017, 04:00 PM
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Default Primer ?

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Originally Posted by TexasAlko View Post
My first two range trips with my new MP10 have not gone very well. Here is a pretty detailed thread in hopes contributors might have some tips before I consider contacting S&W.

New M&P 10 (stock) with Nikon M308 scope. 95 rounds fired thru the firearm with FTF on reloads but not factory loads. I have two stock SW 10 round mags and one 25 round Magpul. Here is the sequence of firings and symptoms for the first two range outings with the new the rifle. When FTFs were encountered I tried switching magazines and the problem seemed consistent regardless of the mag used:

Range Day1:

A. 12 Factory Winchester 150 gr: NO issues

B. 10 Home Loads: 168 Hornady HPBT and IMR4064 new PPU brass with 41.3gr: First three cycled fine and then 7 FTF. Brass ejects but bullet left in mag (short stroke? Not enough lube? Both?)

C. 8 Factory Winchestor 150gr: No issues

D. 5 Home Loads (above): All FTF

Firearm brought home, cleaned and lubed. I reloaded both the Winchester once fired brass and the once fired PPU brass with 44 gr of IMR4064 thinking my initial loads were too light to cycle the MP10 (no gas block adjustment so I tweaked the powder load)

Range Day2:

Control group 1: 150 grain Winchester Factory: No FTF

Control Group 2: 10 rounds new PPC brass of 165 grain SPBT with 41.3 grains of powder The first three rounds were perfect, then problems started and they 100% FTF

Control Group 3: 10 rounds of once fired PPC brass reloads with 44 grains of powder. Mixed results: 50% FTF

Control Group 4: 6 rounds of once fired Lake City brass with 165 grain bullet and 43 grains of powder. 100% FTF

Control Group 5: 20 rounds Once fired Winchester brass with 168 grain bullet and 44 grains of powder. Mixed results: Some of these rounds really got crunched while jamming at the feed ramp. The cases were badly damaged and beyond the ability to chamber.

Control Group 6: Once fired PPC brass with 168 grain bullet and 44 grains of powder. Mixed Results: estimate 75% good, 25% FTF

Notes: Upon cleaning the rifle the second time, I noted lots of brass shavings in the bolt chambering area and 50 percent of the fired brass had dents/scrapes near the shoulder and on the case neck. Feed Ramp? New Mags?

My Questions: The forum notes indicate that a breakin of at least 200 rounds is needed and lots of lube. The forum notes on the reload topic also indicate that too much pressure on reloads can cause FTF. However, with a lighter load, it seems the rifle short strokes to the point where the bolt carrier does not even go back far enough to catch the next round from the mag. More powder results in jams at the feed ramp.

Is the recommendation to pump another 100 rounds thru the rifle before tuning reloads?

Should I consider polishing the feed ramp?

Should I consider a power switch?

Side note: I am new to SA Rifle reloading (but not to pistol reloading, I have 8K rounds of pistol reloading bench and range time for 9mm all the way to 50AE). I have done much research on the rifle round reloading minutia and case guage/length/headspace importance. I use Dillon xl650, case guage and carbide dies.

Thanks in advance for offered tips.
What kind of impression are you getting on the primers ?compare to the new rounds that are firing to see if they are the same
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:06 AM
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Primer indent: I currently don't have any cases fresh from the range such that I can compare primer indentations between the reloads and factor loads. I will examine if I have issues next time at the range.

Powder is verified IMR 4064 (stored inside climate controlled home in wood box with silica pack). I have not audited the loaded rounds, yet. I was going to try a few things first. (polished brass, AOL adjustment, Crimp)

Primers are CCI 200 Large Rifle. Primers verified to be seated correctly. Especially with the LC brass that was swaged during prep.

Crimp: My crimp was always on the light side. So, this weekend, I used Winchester factory loads as a model and I tightened the crimp on several of my existing reloads to match the factory loads thinking that the reloads might be getting hung up on the neck of the brass during cycling.

AOL: The AOL of the factory Winchester loads with SPBT (150gr) bullet was 2.675. My SBPT (168gr ) reloads were loaded at AOL 2.77. Since my reloads were charged on the light side, I modified some of my reloads to the factory Winchester 2.697 AOL thinking that my MP10 likes a shorter round.

With this adjustment, do yo think that I will overpressure the round?

I was surprised at the lower AOL of the Winchester 150 gr rounds since the Lyman's tables don't show AOL that low for the 150gr. Plus most other bullet sizes in the tables show in the 2.7 - 2.8 range.


Case Sizing: I use a case guage to verify neck and base size/length for all reloads after sizing and trimming. I inspect the variance level on the gage using a 10X jewelers loop. Per your note on taking the sizing die all the way to the shell plate, this is what I must do when sizing LC Brass. Factory fresh brass or Factory once fired brass does not require full downward adjustment of the die like LC does. the adjustment is only a 1/4 turn of the die. Both types of brass guage perfectly. This is why I have been focusing on propellant or ignition issues as a possible cause at this point.


Ignition: Since the loading sequence was: Tumble, lube, size, trim, load, I know the primer pocket in my existing reloads was open since there was no chance media could be stuck in there as the primer removal pin would have punched out any stray media from inside the case. This weekend, I prepped some cases and tumbled/polished after sizing and trimming. Then I inspected all the rounds to verify that there was no media in the primer hole.

Next time at the range, I am going to have my son try to use slow motion capture of the MP10 cycling the reloads and see if I can document the mechanics of what is screwing up the reload round feeding. (i.e. short stroking, magazine strip, feed ramp, etc)

Weather is nasty today, so it may be a week or two before I share results.

Thanks!
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:24 PM
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Updates on progress:

Bench, sandbags, 10 round PMAGs. I box of factory Winchestor Texas edition as a control group. All fired successfully in lots of three in between the reloads testing.

In March and July 2017 range trips, 44g of IMR4064 was the sweet spot for consistent cycling of 168 gr (SPTB, AMAX and HPBT) ammo in non military reloaded brass (PPU, Winchester, Hornaday).

Unfortunately, Lake city reloads continued to be very unreliable in terms of cycling. almost all failed to cycle. Cases ejected just fine but failure to pick up another case from the mag.

In the case of the Military SBS brass, most of the cases were jammed in the chamber where mortaring the firearm was (almost necessary) to pull the case out of the chamber.

I know that the military brass was loaded hot as I worked up to the 44 grain and stopped there for tests of various OAL. Examination of the primers still in the pockets shows that the are very flat. I have not yet extracted the primers to see if there is mushrooming.

The fired military (m) cases still fit in the case gage so there is not bulging of the base of case to prevent it from fitting and no visible bulging when checked with the naked eye.

I am really stumped. I don't know why the military brass is having such problems. I hand measured the last three sets of load that I tested Yesterday. They were all a perfect 44g. All cases were sized, gauge, trimmed, guaged again.

I will archive the military brass for when I get a bolt action someday. I will try some new Starline brass that I have ordered to see if I have luck with that. I also ordered Varget to try a different powder

Here is the details of the of the March, July testing:

Rounds Caliber Bullet Weight grs Bullet Type Powder Weight grs Powder Type Brass Vendor Notes

90 308 Win 165 HPBT 41.3 IMR 4064 PPC Inconsistent failure to feed. Jams and failure to strip round off magazine

42 308 Win 180 SPBT 40.6 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.777 LC = .973 of same PPU case 48.1:49.4: 2/4/2016 changed AOL to 2.697 with tighter crimp to mimic factory loads (winchester 150gr factor AOL 2.675) DID NOT CYCLE (Underpowered) Diassembled for reloading again

56 308 Win 168 HPBT 44 IMR 4064 Winchest AOL 2.774: Last 8 bullets changed to AOL 2.697 with tighter crimp to mimic factory loads (Successfully cycled)

100 308 Win 168 AMAX 44 IMR 4064 Winchest AOL 2.710 - 2.718 (3@2.6.98) NOT TESTED YET

50 308 Win 168 AMAX 44 IMR 4064 Winchest AOL 2.720 - 2.738 Cycled Successfully

50 308 Win 168 AMAX 44 IMR 4064 PPU AOL 2.774 - 2.780 - 28 Cycled Successfully

21 308 Win 168 AMAX 44 IMR 4064 Winchest AOL 2.720 - 2.738 - 19 cycled Successfully 2 Failed to Cycle

11 308 Win 168 AMAX 44 IMR 4064 PPU AOL 2.778 - 7 successfully cycled, 1 primer missing, 2 Failed to Cycle

13 308 Win 168 HPBT 44 IMR 4064 PPU AOL 2.790 - 12 cycled successfully, 2 Failed to Cycle

3 308 Win 165 SPBT 43.5 IMR 4064 PPU AOL 2.790 - Cycled successfully

14 308 Win 168 AMAX 43 IMR 4064 PPU AOL 2.790 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

4 308 Win 168 AMAX 43 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.790 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

6 308 Win 168 HPBT 43 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.779 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

5 308 Win 168 HPBT 43 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.770 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

5 308 Win 168 HPBT 43 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.752 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

5 308 Win 168 HPBT 43.5 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.752 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

5 308 Win 168 HPBT 43.5 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.767 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

5 308 Win 168 HPBT 43.5 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.777 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

5 308 Win 168 HPBT 43.5 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.780 - Failed to Cycle failure to strip round off magazine

12 308 Win 168 HPBT 44 IMR 4064 LC(m) AOL 2.783 - 2.787 - FTF 90% failure to strip round off magazine

11 308 Win 168 HPBT 44 IMR 4064 SBS(m) AOL 2.783 - 2.787 7 fired: 5 case Jams in Chamber after firing!

10 308 Win 168 HPBT 44 IMR 4064 PMJ(m) AOL 2.783 - 2.787 - FTF 90% failure to strip round off magazine


Any comments or observations, please feel free to inject or critique.

Thanks!
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  #17  
Old 07-11-2017, 11:43 PM
copemech copemech is offline
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enlarge the gas port in your barrel from .068 to .073-.075 so things will cycle properly
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:35 AM
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Default STOP! READ! Excessive BCG velocity!

@TexasAlko,

Hold off on enlarging your gas port for the moment. The flattened primer in the LC brass is a MAJOR clue! Military brass is thicker, especially at the web. Powder charges in commercial brass that don't show signs of high pressure may in military brass! Your flattened primers are a sign of high pressure.

I think what you are encountering is that your loads in the military brass are generating a higher BCG velocity, and the BCG is over riding the rim of the cartridge in the magazine, and not loading the round. In this respect, your rifle's timing is off!

Do you have access to a chronograph? Ideally, you want your reloads to approximate GI M118 (172gr FMJBT ball), M852 (168gr HPBT), or XM118 (175gr HPBT), where the target muzzle velocity is 2550 fps. M118LR is loaded WAY HOT and chronographs around 2800 fps out of my 700, with signs of high pressure ... it is a round that I need to keep away from my M1MkII (308 Garand). From my 700, I duplicate M118, using 41.8 IMR4895, the Sierra 175gr HPBT, and get a muzzle velocity of 2558 fps with an SD of 2.

I would suggest that you test your ammo by single loading, and engage your target at 100 or 200 yards. Forget horizontal displacement, but focus on vertical displacement. Aim for the smallest vertical displacement possible, that will be indicative of a consistent round. It would be a lot easier if you start by chronographing your load, it can save you time and money. Once you get your reload muzzle velocity close to 2550 fps, your BCG velocity should slow down and consistently strip rounds out of your magazine.

ETA: Take a sample case from each brand ammo, especially the PPU and LC. You want to measure the water capacity
(in gr) of your commercial, PPU, and LC cases. I think you'll find that the PPU brass was manufactured to mil spec, not commercial (SAAMI) specifications, and you will find that the PPU and LC case capacities are less than the US commercial cases. I think that this is where your problem lies!
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  #19  
Old 07-14-2017, 08:50 PM
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Thanks for the notes. Thanks for the confirmation on overpower signs and what may be causing rounds not to get pulled from the magazine. I did not know that the BCG could actually be going too fast to strip a new round.

Yes, I have a Chrony and will clock the rounds in the military brass (and retail brass, too).

Yes, I previously used the water technique on the LC brass and came up with .973 of the capacity of the Winchester brass (sized and trimmed and gauged) However, this yields a 42.8 grain load and I used 43 in my iterative loads thinking AOL might be the pressure culprit. However, 43g is most likely too much and 44 was way too much.

I will redo my ratio measures and calculations for LC and the other military brass and load them accordingly starting low and working up (again).

Now that I have the MP10 broken in, I am confident that I can just work the powder charges to get reliable recycling since I know OALs that work for the retail reloads. The Chrony will keep me honest to ensure round velocities are within acceptable tolerances. I will try to tune with the IMR and then repeat the load iteration tests with Varget, too.

I have had zero issues with my MP15 in terms of reloads of LC brass. That gun has eaten anything stuffed into it as well as my friends X95 eating everything. 400+ military brass reloads fired without any fail to fire or feed. Both new guns, too.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:49 PM
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@TexasAlko,

I use LC LR brass in my LR load for 1000 yards, with the recipe mentioned above.

If I were you, I would start with 41.0gr of IMR4064, and load 15 rounds (do an extra 10 rounds so you can zero your sights), then do the same for 41.2gr, 41.4gr, 41.6gr, 41.8gr, and 42.0gr. (Make sure that each group of 15 is grouped and not mixed with the other charges. Then chronograph 10 rounds of each charge, recording the velocity, average velocity, and standard deviation. Do not shoot these rounds for groups, just shoot to record velocity.

Next, select a test fire distance (100, 200, or 300 yards). Set up a target, and use 10 rounds from your lightest charge and zero your rifle. Once you are zeroed, set up 6 targets. Fire a 5 shot group slow fire for each charge weight. You need not be concerned about the horizontal dispersion, just the vertical displacement. The load that has the smallest up-down spread will be the load that is potentially the most accurate. You will find that these loads should reliably cycle the action of your rifle.

As an aside, I am having a similar experience in developing a thousand yard load for my long range 223 AR. While I do not have over pressure loads (no signs of over pressure), my loads are cycling faster than 69gr and 77gr loads, and the BCG overrides the bolt stop in the magazines. For my shooting, I can live with the BCG overriding the bolt stop, since I single load all of my F class match shots.

REMEMBER: seat your bullets so you have a C.O.L. of 2.800", consistently! The deeper you seat the bullets, the more that you are increasing the chamber pressure disproportionately. Maximum magazine length for the 308 round is 2.800"!
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Last edited by lrrifleman; 07-14-2017 at 09:54 PM.
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  #21  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:15 PM
marathonrunner marathonrunner is offline
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yikes! From looking at this thread, it seems .308 on an AR platform is not as reliable as an AR in 5.56 is that correct? also seems .308 in AR platform is much harsher on parts and parts are more prone to breaking.
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