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12-12-2009, 07:23 PM
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post repair magazines?
Does anybody know if the magazines they give you after the repair are different than the original? If not then who thinks they should be and why.
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12-12-2009, 07:32 PM
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Magazines should meet production specs. Ammo should meet production specs. 15-22 owners should load according to manfacturers directions.
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12-12-2009, 08:09 PM
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Thanks for the reply, but that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. I know people who are shooting the right ammo and loadiing magazines perfect and still have problems. I'm asking If anybody has any ideas as to a change in the mag that would help it feed better.
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12-12-2009, 09:54 PM
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Can't make any change recommendations.....I've got 5 mags and they all feed very well.
Just curious....have you marked your mags so you can tell which one(s) is/are having feeding issues?
__________________
Stu
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12-12-2009, 10:02 PM
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I can't see any difference in all 6 of my magazines!
I had 3 mags prior to sending in for repair and now have 3 more post repair. I've got them all marked and cycle them when at the range. Gun has worked great with all 6 mags since repair?
I have no idea what they did but have over 1000 rounds shot since repair with no issues.
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12-13-2009, 10:00 AM
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The extra magazines are probably "Sorry for the inconvenience." and a very nice gesture.
Easy to mark them for reference.
-- Chuck
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12-13-2009, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CORPORAL PUNISHMENT
Thanks for the reply, but that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. I know people who are shooting the right ammo and loadiing magazines perfect and still have problems. I'm asking If anybody has any ideas as to a change in the mag that would help it feed better.
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Yes.
Here is what I see happening with my mags:
1. Load the magazine with a dozen rounds.
2. Hold the magazine in your hand and see the height of the top round.
3. Pull down about a quarter inch on the thumb assist and slowly let back up. Quite often, the top round binds and does not fully lift into position. Sometimes it can't even be forced up with the thumb assist.
4. The top round is bound tight at a downward angle and pushed to one side. I'll post some pics. The rear of the round is lifted into position (albeit at an angle) so the bolt can still get a good whack at it resulting in a snagged round in the magazine....I think....
So... it would seem to me that there is a problem with how the top two rounds are positioned against each other, slight enough to sometimes bind within the magazine. Since I can't change how the stacking is designed, I am going to take a Dremmel with a polishing bit and see what kind of damage I can do to the upper portion of the mag lips by relieving some material. I've been saying this for weeks but haven't got around to it. Probably spending too much time on this forum.
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12-13-2009, 11:49 AM
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Pictures Mag Snags
In pairs (left pics not lifting) (right pics correct)
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12-13-2009, 04:34 PM
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The cartridges vary in overall length.
Federal 40gr Target round nose being the longest I've found (0.983") and some 36gr CCI HPs being "much" shorter (0.958").
The Federals bind in my magazines when loading. But seem to come out OK when firing.
-- Chuck
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12-13-2009, 06:41 PM
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Thank you chatanooga, please let me know if you have any success with the dremmel. Also thank you for the pictures. I always kind of wondered if the lip was polished down a little if it would let all rounds feed correctly(even some junk remington). My ar is on it's way to smith because of this failure to feed issue and some failure to eject. I was gonna try to fix myself but, I'm not to sure what all smith does to your rifle except move the ejector 1/16 of an inch. Some people on the forumn say their replacing parts sometimes. I have heard very positive things about post repair results. I will post when I get it back.
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12-13-2009, 08:22 PM
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Phil you are on the right track. It's actaully got a name. It's called rim-lock. It was very common with 1911's chambered for 38 Super. The rim of top cartridge is behind the rim of the second cartridge. When the bolt comes forward pushing the top of the rim the bottom of the rim catches on the lower round but with enough force to push past. The round then jumps up suddenly into the ramp and bounces up past the chamber. There's the problem. What do we do about it?
Last edited by skip62; 12-13-2009 at 08:33 PM.
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12-13-2009, 11:17 PM
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After I load all my magazines, regardless of what gun they belong to, I always give them a smack on my palm (primer side down) to seat all the rounds toward the back of the mag, hopefully aligning them so they feed properly. The first time you smack it, you hear a little click as the rounds hit the back of the mag. Maybe this helps, maybe not, but I figure it can't hurt.
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12-14-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skip62
Phil you are on the right track. It's actaully got a name. It's called rim-lock. It was very common with 1911's chambered for 38 Super. The rim of top cartridge is behind the rim of the second cartridge. When the bolt comes forward pushing the top of the rim the bottom of the rim catches on the lower round but with enough force to push past. The round then jumps up suddenly into the ramp and bounces up past the chamber. There's the problem. What do we do about it?
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That may be happening too. But what I am looking at the rim of the top round is in front of the lower rim. But... you got me thinking about the rim and I believe I may have stumbled upon something.
On both sides of the magazine there are ridges that the rim rides along and between the rear of the magazine. So the rim is riding in a narrow grove/channel on both sides of the magazine.
With only 3 rounds in the magazine, as you pull down on the thumb assist the rounds stay pretty much in the same alignment for feeding and the rim stays aligned inside the channel. The top round never snags and always lifts back into position. But with a dozen rounds in the magazine, as you pull down on the thumb assist the top 3 rounds immediately 'dive down' at a significant angle. The staggered magazine design along with what appears to be a lot 'longer' well for the rounds to ride in seem to allow this. Check it out and let me know when you think.
With many rounds in the magazine: When easing up on the thumb assist the top 3 rounds are already pointing at a significant downward angle compared to the proper feeding angle. When spring pressure is reapplied, the top round is slightly pushed to one side due to the staggared design. Then the (bullet) drags slightly on the magazine lip while the (rim) continues being pushed upward (further exaggerating the down angle of the round) until the rim binds in the channel when it hits the top edge of the magazine.... then everything stops. That's where the rounds are ultimately binding--- in the rim channel when the rim arrives at the top edge of the magazine.
It is far more reapeatable with Rem GB than with Federal Value. That makes some sense since the Rem bullet profile is larger and likely drags more on the magazine lip as it tries to lift into position.
In any event, it sure appears to me that the angle of the round while lifting into the top spot for feeding is causing the rim to snag in it's channel.
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12-14-2009, 08:57 PM
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Smith and Wesson brothers, I nominate Phil to be the first to dremmel the sh.. out of his magazines and post his video on how to make the 15-22 a remington golden bullet firing machine. Actually Phil that was said w/ out sarcasm. I seen a couple you tube videos with a guy that dremmeled his mags on his regular ar. I think the problem lies in how much to take off the lip. good luck!
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12-14-2009, 09:12 PM
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Hey Phil, I've been looking at it more. I've gotten this to repeat, but was very difficult, actually slowly cycling the slide. If you look at the mag when the top round is tipped down, look at the round below it right in front. It will be touching the front of the mag. That's because it's all the way forward, and the top round is all the way back, this is when the 2 rims lock. I'll see if I can figure out where I used to post pic's and show you what I'm talking about.
added pic's
Normal
Rimlock - notice the second round is all the way forward actually touching the front of the mag. If the round were longer, rimlock couldn't happen, or if the mag opening weren't as long.
Last edited by skip62; 12-14-2009 at 10:50 PM.
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12-15-2009, 10:54 AM
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Thanks, Skip. Great pics.
Yes, the length of the 15-22 mag opening seems to be considerably longer than my other mags. I'm looking at my Smith 22A mag and the rounds barely fit lengthwise.
Now... what to do?
I'll be interested to see how the 15-22 10rd mag works when I can get my hands on one. I've asked here if anyone has had the chance to use one but nothing so far.
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12-15-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CORPORAL PUNISHMENT
Smith and Wesson brothers, I nominate Phil to be the first to dremmel the sh.. out of his magazines and post his video on how to make the 15-22 a remington golden bullet firing machine. Actually Phil that was said w/ out sarcasm. I seen a couple you tube videos with a guy that dremmeled his mags on his regular ar. I think the problem lies in how much to take off the lip. good luck!
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Well..... I'm very good and well practiced at turning a minor problem into a complete disastor. I think the best I can do is just try to smooth the two small 1/16'' areas on both sides of the mag lips where there are rub marks. I'm thinking that If I actually remove some material that it might allow the below round to wedge up even further against the top round and make the problem worse. I duknow... but my Horoscope mentioned something about replacement parts in the near future.
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12-15-2009, 07:54 PM
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BLAHAHAHAHA "replacement parts in the near future" That's rich, bud.
I'm going to see if I can find a thin piece of spring steel, flat or round(don't think it will matter), carefully fit to the front of the mags, this way the round below won't go forward. They do something similar to 1911 mags to make them feed 9mm rounds.
Phil, you go your way, I'll go mine and we'll meet back here in a couple of days to see what works.
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12-16-2009, 08:20 PM
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ok, did some testing.
**disclaimer**
Try at your own risk.
My results are just that, "my" results
your results may vary
**end disclaimer**
For this test, I used a mag that has given me fits with a jam almost everytime I've used it. I taped the back of the mag. My original intent was to take up space in the front of the mag, but thought this would just be easier to test. I used thin strips of target tape, because it's slippery on 1 side, taped the back of the mag at the very top.
I then cut the excess off the back of the mag
I fired over 300 rounds through this mag in less than 45 minutes. 0 Failures
I'm on to something and maybe the back of the mag is key. I tried to load the mag every which I could. I even pulled the follower to the bottom of the mag and dropped the rounds in. Still didn't jam.
You can see here, it's not loaded properly
Harder to see, but the bullets are not stacked properly in several places in the mag
Now I just have to come up with a more perminent solution.
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12-16-2009, 08:33 PM
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Yeah man!
Do you think it has anything to do with the rim not being able to dip down and out of the 'mag rim grove' due to taking up the slack with tape behind it?
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12-16-2009, 08:44 PM
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it's just the round is far enough forward that it can't get locked behind the round below it. Ya know how you can make the top round stick down(you had a pic of it), I can't make this mag do that, because it can't rimlock. The round still has plenty of nose up and down movement, it just can't lock on the rim below. I used 4 pieces of tape, about .020" - .024". I don't think you can go much more and rim won't work in the grove at all.
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12-22-2009, 06:49 AM
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FYI, disregard anything I've posted about the mag's. I went out today and shot about 400 rounds with only 2 FTF using all 5 of my mags(unmodified). The gun must just want to be broken in. I had 0 problems with Win eXpert, cheap stuff from Academy. I even miss stacked the mag a couple of times, and had no problems.
I wouldn't have thought it would take 2000 rounds to break-in, but I've been wrong before...lol
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