Had a good time at the range over the weekend. Iron sights rock! I'll probably get a cheap acog knock off just for kicks. But that's not the point of this post...

I was switching between holding the stock handguard with my wrist upturned and putting my hand directly on the magwell. It seemed more comfortable and natural to hold the magwell. I just wanted to get an idea of how others are holding theirs.

I know it's basically what I feel most comfortable with I'm just curious as to what others are doing.

The magwell grip is good for single shots, but if you want to return to target faster for rapid fire shots, conisder a Magpul AFG (they have a version 2 out now that's narrower and shorter than its predecessor).

The idea is to put your thumb on top of the handguard to help suppress muzzle rise. If you do go with a VFG (or even a AFG), consider floating the handguard so that gripping it doesn't tweak the barrel (affecting accuracy).

I feel like I have better control & pointability of my carbine with my support hand extended out near the front sight.

I use a VFG, but not as a handle. I put my middle finger, ring finger & pinkie in front of the VFG, the index finger kinda points points forward, and the thumb goes on the top of the handguard. (if that makes sense)

Bob S.

Interesting. jsimmons, I looked at the magpul afg and thought it wasn't going to be my style. I picked up a rifle that had one and it did alleviate some of the uncomfortable feeling in my arm (Guess because I'm a short guy extending my hand out to the end of the handguard gives me an awkward feeling) but not so much as just gripping the magwell. I'm in the market for a vfg to test out on my rifle. That is once I get my free float installed.

side rant here: I cannot believe some of the gunsmiths in the fort lauderdale area. This one guy wanted to charge me $150.00 and take a week to install a free floating handguard for me! (cheapest I found was $100 and three days) I mean I can do almost everything on my own except get the darn barrel nut off. $150!!! I'll just buy the tools and do it myself! It'll cost me less than half that to get the tools needed.

Messer Bob, so you're saying you use the vfg more like a finger rest?

Kinda - I did a quick youtube search - and I think this shows it best...

YouTube - VTAC Rifle El Prez Drill

Putting your support hand out front allows you better control of moving the gun on target.

I've never been to Vikings training - but it seems they teach the same type of hold.

Hope this helps,
Bob S.

I see said the blind man! Surprislingly enough it's just what I had pictured in my dissfunkshunal brain. Seems reasonable enough. What about me and my carbine length handguard? It won't allow for the full extension shown in the video, neither will my budget for that matter!

Mine is a carbine length too - works just fine...

Here is my "almost" KISS carbine...


Take care,
Bob S.

You don't have to put it all the way out front, you can put it right up against the delta ring if you want.

To remove the barrel nut, you need a vise block ($45 from brownells), a handguard removal tool, a barrel nut wrench (get the two-sided one that allows you to remove the standard barrel nut and tighten the new floating barrel nut), and a punch to remove/reinstall the front sight post. You will also need a 1/2-inch drive torque wrench to tighten the new barrel nut.

Depending on the rifle, you may need a second pair of hands to hold the wrench against the standard barrel nut while you torque it off.

I'm getting the Yankee-Hill smooth configurable floating handguard (YHM-5004A - I need the mid-length one) . It comes with the barrel nut and anti-rotation screws. It doesn't need a jam nut like other handguards do, and Yankee-Hill makes an endcap for the muzzle end to clean up the look. The handguard has a full rail on top, and 2.5-inch rails on the sides and bottom, and you can add more rails as needs arise. It's available in carbine, mid-length, and rifle-length sizes.

Good luck with your project.

I got the forend off by myself with little effort. I had a punch set so getting the A2 flash hider and the FSB off wasn't a big deal. I got a vise block off ebay for $20. I got an armorers tool for the same price. I don't have a torque wrench and that's where I guess I'm having the trouble. It is hard as heck trying to get this thing off...

Depending on the cost of the torque wrench I may have to just spend the $100.

Never use a torque wrench to remove a nut/bolt. You may need to apply heat to the nut. I don't know if S&W uses locktite, but if they do, heat will melt the loctite and allow you to loosen the nut.

THANK GOD FOR GUNTECH!!! $40 and I'm squared away...at least as far as the handguard goes. It took two guys but they did it. Wish I had called them first. But back to the topic...

While there they also showed me this nice looking vfg with an integrated light and laser. They said it's the same company that makes the sig stoplite. $175 + uncle sams cut. It was kind of bulky and didn't seem like it would work well for the full forward position. Anyone have any experience with this thing?

I personally avoid gadgets and do-dads. My M&P weighs 7.6 pounds *with* optics and a full 20-round magazine and has nothing hanging off it. It's lean and mean, and easy to run.

Of course, everyone's different...

With the batteries in it weighs about a pound. I went ahead and got one for under 100 on ebay. I got it today and like it alot. This light is really bright. I don't know if it is actually 700 lumen but it's more than enough to disorient someone coming into my house.

I seen you already bought it, so please don't take this as me making fun of your rig - its honestly not my intention. I just want you to keep a few things in mind, especially if there is a return period.

I assume you are talking about the Crimson Trace VFG. Crimson Trace usually makes great gear, but AR gunners feel like the VFG was a miss. I'll go over the issues people have reported - and remember I am not trying to hurt your feelings or anything like that. I just seen you got it a week ago, so maybe you will see something that doesn't suit your needs if there is a return.

1. Lasers on Carbines have a limited role. There's different schools of thought. If you plan on putting a magnified optic, they are great for close quarter defense work though.

2. The problem with the CT VFG is that the laser isn't mounted on the reciever or free float handguard as most are. It is mounted on the plastic VFG. This causes the point of aim / point of impact to shift when any force is applied to the VFG.

3. The position of the light / laser wasn't well thought out. As someone here has mentioned, the best way to use a VFG is as more of a handstop. You want to use a split finger grip - your pinky and ring finger on the VFG with the middle and pointer tucked on the bottom of the handguard. The thumb can point forward or rest on top of the handguard. When you apply a good grip with the CT VFG on, you will block either the light or the laser - depending if you are right or left handed or shooting primary or support side. The ergonomics of the grip also don't allow a good use of a foregrip.

4. The durability has been somewhat poor since day one. TangoDown and other companies are using metal VFG for the added durability. That's not to say that plastic VFG are bad, it just seems like there have been a decent amount of reports of the CT version breaking.

5. The flashlight / laser is on the bottom. This is a real bummer when trying to shoot from cover. There's a good reason why Vickers and other top trainers are starting to mount pistol lights on the top rail in front of the front sight. Hint - its not because it looks cool....because it actually looks really goofy. lol. Another popular set up is an offset mount that you can reach easily with your support hand thumb when using a more traditional scout light.

6. Price. Given the price you listed, you probably didn't get the Crimson Trace version. If it is a copy then it is basicaly a copy of a not very well thought out platform. Depending on how much you value the laser, you could get a much better platform for the same price. A Magpul VFG and Streamlight TRL-1s could be bought in the same price range. There are some other scout style lights and the VTAC offset mount is very reasonably priced. The laser is a tricky area, since most people find the PEQ military grade series to be the only ones durable enough for a combat rifle's use - but they are in the $800 and up range.

7. Weight. A big reason lights and lasers are expensive for the high grade stuff is they are very light given how durable they are. This is another area where the laser should be given a second thought. Ounces make pounds, and sometimes a lightweight rig is the most important attribute to have. I would look at everything being hung off a rifle and decide what can be cut out to shave some weight.

Again, a laser on a carbine has a very limited purpose of use, but if you have one then you may want to consider keeping it. I've also assumed that you got the Crimson Trace version on a good deal. If not, then the durability issue could be even larger. Just keep in mind you can find a Streamlight TLR-1s with 160 lumens for about $100 and a Magpul VFG for $20. The light mounted at 12oclock is becoming a standard in defensive carbines.

And remember, I'm not hating on your gear or trying to get you upset. Quite the opposite. When I got into the AR platform, I wasted a lot of money. I soon learned that the "buy once, cry once" mantra often holds true. But in this case, I feel you could have a superior set up for the same amount of money - so I felt the need to pass on my knowledge.

If you are second guessing the purchase and there is no return, just make the most of it and list it on an Equipment Exchange. If you like the set up, great! It's your rifle and you should run it how you feel comfortable. It is important to look at what the top trainers or operators are doing though, because they have worlds of information.

I often don't give comments on gear selection because people will sometimes act like you just slapped their mother, but time to time I try to pass on things I've learned and picked up. I don't come on the AR portion of this site often, so if you have any more questions just send me a PM or Email. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions or help you with any other projects like your recent handguard replacement. Hell, if you live near me I can do it for you at no cost or lend you the tools and information.

Remember, YMMV. Take it easy!

Steve

Steve, thank you very much for your input. I appreciate the sentiment and the thought you put into your response. I'm certain that you are probably correct in all the assertions you made.

No offense taken, it's just a piece of equipment. I'm not a Marine so I don't consider it an extension of myself. When I purchased the TDL I was told it would probably be a paperweight soon after getting it lol. Now that I have the thing on my rifle it seems like it may indeed end up being that.

The escape for me is that I have a freind who wants one. He's willing to trade his set up for mine. He has a separate light, green laser and foregrip. His has all the chords and pressure switches. I was trying to avoid that because of snags but I'm probably just not going to use the chords.

Anyway, thanks again for the input. You live and learn. Fortunately, this time, I can get away with not losing money!

Can't beat that, brother! If I had the money from things I bought that didn't work out.... well I'd have a lot more money! haha.

It's good to see you view equipment as equipment. I tread carefully because there are some who get very invested in brands, platforms, etc. It's always great to keep an objective mind.

If you rethink your setup, my best advice as of now would be to consider mounting a pistol light at 12 oclock - if you don't have a fixed front sight. Larry Vickers has a writeup on the perks of this style, and his opinion holds a whole lot of weight in firearms. The main advantages are shooting from cover and not casting shadows. It does look a little goofy though.

Putting a light on the rifle is essential for defensive purposes. I find VFGs or handstops essential also, but thats my opinion. So you are definately heading in the right direction. Should you decide to go with a magnified optic, I would consider adding the laser again. They can be great for CQB and night fighting.

Take it easy, bro!

Steve