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  #1  
Old 01-11-2011, 04:10 PM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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So I buy a NEW, Never fired M&P 15 last week. Flat top with the birdcage front site, no rear sight. Looks great, looks new, so I buys it. Get it home and started the first "injection" of what I now find most AR addicts do, looking for add on accessories ! LOL Anyhow, in my quest for wisdom, I noticed that there is no S & W Logo in the stock ( 6 Position ), and that there is no information at all on the barrel! Called S&W 3 times now, and no one can track my serial number down. The first time I called, I had the ser # of the other rifle the guy had for sale. The CSR said it looked weird when he pulled the number up, .....it wasn't a rifle.....maybe an upper? He couldn't tell. Well.....poor cell service and got disconnected. Called back with the correct number of the rifle I purchased, and this guy says it cannot be found anywhere! In fact.....he says that there are NO rifles with my starting serial numbers!!!! I gotta get to the bottom of this, so I calls a 3rd time. This guys wasn't of much help either, but he did say that there are 0 , zero, nadda markings on a S&W M&P barrel. Can anyone help figure out just what in the world kinda mess I have here?
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:17 PM
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Ser # SW 148XX

also a very low number so I called STAG too - they also had no info.
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:38 PM
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Vzdude welcome to the forum. Look on the box and see if the serial # matches the gun? And yes there is supposed to be markings on the top of the barrel "5.56 NATO 1/9". Did you buy from an FFL or private party?
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Old 01-11-2011, 04:39 PM
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I just bought an M&P15OR on christmas eve. Bought it from a BBS. (Big Box Store - Sportsman's Warehouse). It did have the S&W cartouche on the 6-position stock. It also had the S&W and M&P markings on the lower receiver. I know this gun came from the factory, because this store buys that many rifles; plus they DON'T have a permit/license in colorado to sell used guns. The reason I'm commenting is because of the comment you said the S&W guy said; that their barrels have NO MARKINGS on them. They may not have a S&W marking on it, but mine and others I've seen, have the caliber marked on it. Now, it is possible that S&W outsources the barrels and so they meant there wasn't any S&W markings.

It is odd however that the serial number you have can't be found by S&W. FWIW, my s/n is also 5 digits, and it starts with 15XXX. So, your serial number isn't that far off.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:16 PM
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Good to know, thanks to both of you!I did buy it from a private individual so I am guessing that I have some sort of "Frankenfifteen" ! LOL I am sending pics to S&W tonight when I get home, and hopefully get to the bottom of it all. If that is the case, I'm gonna trade to upper for a left handed one anyhow. That was what I really wanted in the first place.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:19 PM
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The other concern, after talking to the lady in records, wasn't the 5 digits as much as the SW - Maybe it is a SM ? I dunno.....My mind is getting numb from reading all the hub-ub! LOL
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:37 PM
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So, without any markings, why do you think it is a S&W? Post some pics here and the guys will get to the bottom of this!
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:39 PM
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Well....one CSR @ S&W said they do not mark the barrels of the M&P15's. Kind of a blanket statement, but I haven't found anything to counter it. Pics will be coming in about an hour. I have to drive home, but it is 1st on the priority list!
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:39 PM
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Other info that may be relative, the BCG is marked WIB and WID .
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:07 PM
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To the best of my knowledge AND in agreement with my owners manual, S&W marks its BBl.s for 556 Nato or 223 to identify the chambering of that weapon.

It does sound like you may have an S&W upper (Buds sells them and lists them right at the top of their S&W listings) and a no name lower. However, the bbl. sounds questionable without a caliber marking.
My December pruchased M&P15OR has S&W markings on the buttstock, the receive (both sides) and M&P 15 on the selector side. Serial number has capital SN followed by 025XX.

It was purchased new in box from Bud's and delivered through my local FFL dealer/range with scanner stickers that agreed with the box..

Last edited by MPDC; 01-11-2011 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:17 PM
alaskavett alaskavett is offline
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Did you get a receipt with a serial # and ID from this person? If not contact them and tell them you need it for insurance reasons(and you will if you add a rider) to your home owners. My real concern is that with the #'s not making sense that there is a REAL problem. Kyle
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:23 PM
Dragon88 Dragon88 is offline
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Post a picture of the markings on the lower receiver. This is ridiculous, playing 20 questions with markings on the barrel and stock and such. Your lower receiver must be marked with the manufacturer by law and that tells you what firearm you have.

Unless the lower receiver is correctly marked as such, you do not own and did not buy a S&W M&P 15. If the lower is labeled correctly, but other parts don't match a new M&P 15, then you still got taken, just in a different way.

When you buy a firearm from an private party, you get what you pay for. Anything could have been done to this "new" rifle before it got to your hands.
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  #13  
Old 01-11-2011, 07:42 PM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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Here are the pics as promised. My biggest concern is the lower and why S&W can't find the numbers. The upper - yeah, probably some Oly or someone who isn't proud enough to put their name on it at least! LOL It was a deal at 735$ I thought.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG0155.jpg (32.8 KB, 411 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0157.jpg (64.4 KB, 370 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0151.jpg (50.2 KB, 381 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0156.jpg (30.9 KB, 384 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0153.jpg (32.3 KB, 362 views)
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  #14  
Old 01-11-2011, 07:55 PM
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Well, obviously my serial number is lots lower but my receiver doesn't have the 5.56 etching, the S&W logos are not white and match on both sides and my bbl. definitely says 5.56 Nato. I may have an earlier production model and cosmetic changes do occur but I understand why you are skeptical. Incidently, mine was appx.$825 including shipping but no sights were included.

Last edited by MPDC; 01-12-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:56 PM
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Vzdude, look under the handguards for barrel markings. Perhaps it is a Rock River upper or some such on a S&W lower. The forge mark on the upper receiver is the same as that on my complete S&W MP15's, but Rock River uses the same upper receivers as well some other AR15 manufacturers. Like Christcorp said, my S&W barrels do have the caliber marked on them towards the front sight, and is visable without removing the handguards.

Last edited by Tbat; 01-11-2011 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:07 PM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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Nothing anywhere on the barrel at all. NADA, ZIP, ZERO. Had hand guards off twice, was going to take the gasblock off, but figured there surely wasn't anything under there..........Looked at several others and the M&P for the majority of them are all white. It is etched too, not some cheesy sticker. Again......I'll probably end up getting a Lefty upper , so my major focus is , for now, is the lower legit? I sent some photos to a lady at S&W as well, so hopefully there will be some answers tomorrow! If the upper is legit as well, Great! , but until then, is the upper a 5.56, .223 , NATO, WTH can I safely shoot out of it? Hopefully you can see my concerns! LOL
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:13 PM
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The laser etching on the right side of my S&W MP15 lowers are different. Some really stand out, others may be faint. There was a thread a little while back where a guys lower didn't have the laser etching on the right, but I think that S&W did at least recognize the serial number, lol.
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  #18  
Old 01-11-2011, 08:50 PM
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bought a new in the box MP15-ORC last year, looks about the same as mine marking wise, cept my lower doesn't have the 556 under the model 15 etching. my serial number started with 356XX, so I think your's is an older unit. How about if it's a lower receiver that was build upon... they sell just the receivers..

and my barrel has the 1\9 556 on it..
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Last edited by turbo38gn; 01-11-2011 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:07 PM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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so.....turbo.....no markings at all on ur barrel either?
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:47 PM
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Some things that catch my eye.
1. Caliber under the model number. That's almost against common sense. Why? Because you can put a different caliber upper on just about any lower and it will work. e.g. 6.8 spc.
2. Every serial number I've seen prefaced the number with SN to stand for "Serial Number". Not saying that they didn't preface it with SW to stand for "Smith - Wesson". My serial number is 15xxx so it's not to much higher than the original posters.
3. No caliber on the barrel or upper at all. How do you know what caliber it is?
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
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so.....turbo.....no markings at all on ur barrel either?
mine does have the markings on the barrel, 1\9 and 556 nato..
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:07 AM
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Could it be one of these, built out?



Smith & Wesson M&P15 Stripped Lower Receiver $136.00 SHIPS FREE
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:23 AM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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That is what I am guessing. It's a built lower, and a no name flat top upper. BUT- why can't S&W find that serial number in their database? They should have a record of it for sure! AND what is the barrel chambered for? Why no markings at all on the barrel?
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vzdude View Post
That is what I am guessing. It's a built lower, and a no name flat top upper. BUT- why can't S&W find that serial number in their database? They should have a record of it for sure! AND what is the barrel chambered for? Why no markings at all on the barrel?
IF you have the seller's info. and phone number call and ask about it. A gunsmith could check the bbl. and probably tell you what it is (OR ISN'T).

Good luck with it, hope it turns out OK.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by turbo38gn View Post
bought a new in the box MP15-ORC last year, looks about the same as mine marking wise, cept my lower doesn't have the 556 under the model 15 etching. my serial number started with 356XX, so I think your's is an older unit. How about if it's a lower receiver that was build upon... they sell just the receivers..

and my barrel has the 1\9 556 on it..
OK... my thoughts exactly about it being a built lower receiver... as I mentioned earlier.. call Smith again and ask them to check it as a receiver not a complete gun...? But... since I live 10 minutes from Smith... I doubt they will be open today... 12 plus inches of snow as I type and more on the way... the wind is whipping and no cars are on the road...
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:33 AM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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I am trying to get the info from my seller. He , of course, bought it from someone else and has "no idea" how that could have happened. I figured I am screwed either way.

As far as a gunsmith, how would they be able to tell if it a .223 barrel vs a 5.56 barrel ? Everything I am reading says they are the same, yet different. LOL
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
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I am trying to get the info from my seller. He , of course, bought it from someone else and has "no idea" how that could have happened. I figured I am screwed either way.

As far as a gunsmith, how would they be able to tell if it a .223 barrel vs a 5.56 barrel ? Everything I am reading says they are the same, yet different. LOL
Different pressure tolerances . However, he may recognize the bbl. as to manufacture, quality, etc.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:26 PM
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Talked to a friend today who has a chamber bore gauge. He says he can measure if the head space is set up for .223 or 5.56mm . He didn't know off hand what the measurements were, but had them written with the gauge. That will at least make me feel better about shooting it. If it shoots good, I might just keep it!
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:48 PM
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Spoke with two different dealers today, and they both said "Who cares?! " Keep it and shoot if, if yo don't like it, build on it! So it looks like I will just keep it, and see how it shoots. Both guys also said, so long as I stay in the 55 - 65 gr. ammo, it'll shoot fine no matter what it is chambered for. They have also neither seen an AR barrel chambered for .223 specifically. Are they less knowledgeable than the people that claim otherwise?
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:50 PM
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Also got an email back from the lady at S&W "compliance" department. She has sent my info up the ladder to yet another person. She was unable to find ANY info regarding that serial number. Hmmm........still curious either way!
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
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Spoke with two different dealers today, and they both said "Who cares?! " Keep it and shoot if, if yo don't like it, build on it! So it looks like I will just keep it, and see how it shoots. Both guys also said, so long as I stay in the 55 - 65 gr. ammo, it'll shoot fine no matter what it is chambered for. They have also neither seen an AR barrel chambered for .223 specifically. Are they less knowledgeable than the people that claim otherwise?

http://le.atk.com/pdf/223VS556.pdf

NOTE: S&W spec sheet specifically lists 5.56 as the caliber. I would think, considering liability issues that these models ARE chambered for 5.56 unless specified as otherwise. S&W does, in fact make a .223 model and markets it as such.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore.../ps/811003.pdf

Last edited by MPDC; 01-14-2011 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:06 PM
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Well......got a call from S&W today......seems they are very interested in getting this rifle into their possession ! Hopefully they can make it worth my while, and they can get to the bottom of where this thing originated from! Thanks for all the help folks! Look forward to a new M&P and finally getting to shoot it!
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:49 PM
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Well......got a call from S&W today......seems they are very interested in getting this rifle into their possession ! Hopefully they can make it worth my while, and they can get to the bottom of where this thing originated from! Thanks for all the help folks! Look forward to a new M&P and finally getting to shoot it!
Bet you really do get a new MP15 and one of your choice or more.... I have a funny feeling, that they think something criminal has occurred... serial numbers are no joke, when a guns serial number cannot be located in the data base... you figure it out..
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Old 01-17-2011, 03:41 PM
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I received an email saying that a call tag has been sent and once examined, I would receive a replacement. I replied and stated I wasn't real comfortable with that. Also, in our first conversation, the gentleman said he wanted to buy my gun and give me another. I am a bit confused about where I stand. I want a replacement gun, yes. When I send mine to them ,though, I have absolutely nothing. Maybe I am excited and thinking I have more than I really have, but I was under the impression by our first phone call that he really wanted this gun. Am i taking this way out of proportion? Am I expecting too much?
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:36 PM
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Got another email with an apology to the buy mine AND get another. That was either mis-spoke or misunderstood. I'm fine with that, but should I send it to S&W with a blind leap of faith that it will get replaced?
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Old 01-17-2011, 05:51 PM
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Got another email with an apology to the buy mine AND get another. That was either mis-spoke or misunderstood. I'm fine with that, but should I send it to S&W with a blind leap of faith that it will get replaced?
In my experience with S&W, their word is good ONCE YOU GET THEIR ATTENTION.
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Old 01-17-2011, 06:23 PM
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Got another email with an apology to the buy mine AND get another. That was either mis-spoke or misunderstood. I'm fine with that, but should I send it to S&W with a blind leap of faith that it will get replaced?
I'm heading over there now.... going to their shooting range\Retail Store.. I'll put in a good word for ya.. who have you been emailing with, you must have a name..
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:15 PM
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I am trying to get the info from my seller. He , of course, bought it from someone else and has "no idea" how that could have happened. I figured I am screwed either way.

As far as a gunsmith, how would they be able to tell if it a .223 barrel vs a 5.56 barrel ? Everything I am reading says they are the same, yet different. LOL
TAKE THE RIFLE to a gunsmith an have the chamber an barrel plugged an measured/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:11 PM
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Got another email with an apology to the buy mine AND get another. That was either mis-spoke or misunderstood. I'm fine with that, but should I send it to S&W with a blind leap of faith that it will get replaced?
Just curious....who informed you that it would be replaced?

They have requested you allow them to look at it....on their nickle. I seriously doubt they will keep it and leave you without a rifle. That is called theft.

I personally would send it to them...not because I expect them to replace it. Perhaps you stumbled on a counterfeit gun? if so, you'll be helping S&W by allowing them to examine it.

Just my $.02.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:13 PM
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Yup, it sounds to me like they want to examine the gun, not blindly replace it. Consider this as an inspection, they will examine the gun and make sure it conforms to S&W specifications. Part of that will undoubtedly be a serial number check, gauging, examining of the parts, etc. Do not be afraid that S&W will steal your gun. Send it in on their dime if that's what you want to do and wait for a call or email. Then go from there.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:20 PM
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Yup, it sounds to me like they want to examine the gun, not blindly replace it. Consider this as an inspection, they will examine the gun and make sure it conforms to S&W specifications. Part of that will undoubtedly be a serial number check, gauging, examining of the parts, etc. Do not be afraid that S&W will steal your gun. Send it in on their dime if that's what you want to do and wait for a call or email. Then go from there.
Yep.. X2 for sure..
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:42 PM
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I'm curious as to the outcome of this drama ;-) Anything new???
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Old 02-04-2011, 02:36 AM
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Well.....my last conversation with the "numbers" guy did not go so well. It sounds as if I will be keeping the gun. He has told me 3 things, to only change his mind / story each time. First off he says " I wanna buy that gun and give you another!" O.k.....I can understand that this is not exactly what he meant to say, so I agree to a new gun. Secondly he says to get online and pick out whichever gun I want, and that he will ship it to a S&W dealer, where we can make an even exchange. When I call to tell him which gun I have chosen, he says...We CANT do THAT gun.......its too expensive! Take note....he fails to call when promised, fails to return emails. I have been the instigator of most of our conversations, after his initial call. Finally we agree on a mediocre price replacement that he agrees to send to a S&W dealer near me. Third, I get a call from someone in customer service that is trying to explain that he was wrong in telling me that he would send a gun to a dealer for an "exchange", and that they will not be doing that............I let that guy go, and immediately called the "numbers" guy back and explained my dissatisfaction with this whole ordeal. He took offense, duly noted, and I tried to explain AGAIN, why I was unwilling to ship them a gun, that I own, that THEY say does not exist. It's like a car from General Motors........would you just load it up on a car hauler and HOPE that they send you another one? Not me......this guy and his customer service skills lack severely. I wonder if they will ever call again.....until then, I have about 350 rounds ready to put through it this weekend! Until this point, it has not been fired. Screw that! I buy guns to shoot, not to let set in the safe!
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:55 AM
Deaj Deaj is offline
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I'll chime in on this one.

I've read the entire thread and I'm sorry to hear about your ordeal. The prospect of getting 'taken' for the price of a quality rifle is unenviable. I'm also sorry to hear about your communication issues with whoever you've been dealing with at S&W. The experience you've relayed here is definitely out of the norm for S&W service.

There have been a number of suggestions repeated here in this thread on two separate matters and I'd like to echo both.

First: Regardless of your experience with the individual who promised the dealer-side exchange sight unseen S&W may be trusted completely on this matter. In fact you're almost certain to end up getting what you thought you had paid for once they're finished inspecting the gun given the serial number issue (this is not a small issue). The lower receiver is suspect given the caliber marking alone for reasons already stated in earlier in this thread. What you have now is almost certainly a 'franken-gun'. The upper is suspect given the lack of barrel markings - again, almost certainly not a S&W upper. If you send them the gun the very worst thing that could happen is that they inspect it, find no issue that warrants pulling it from circulation, and they ship it back to you. Note: THEY WILL NOT STEAL YOUR WEAPON. For the minor inconvenience of having it gone for a short period of time you will almost certainly receive a new M&P15 replacement that most closely matches the form factor of the rifle you have now.

Since the origin of the receivers and the barrel (and perhaps the BCG given what we've seen so far) cannot be confirmed without sending it to S&W you have no idea what standards were followed in the manufacturing of these parts. Best case - it's a functioning 'franken-gun' that will serve you well. Worst case - one or more parts are reject QC parts someone grabbed before they were destroyed and used them in the assembly of a gun for a quick buck (this might be one possible explanation for the lack of markings on the barrel) and firing the weapon results in a kaboom. Likely? Perhaps not, but it's not out of the question either. I URGE YOU TO RECONSIDER ALLOWING S&W TO INSPECT THIS WEAPON. If there's anything unsafe about the gun they will replace it. If, at worst, they send it back you can then shoot the weapon with confidence knowing it has been inspected by a known quantity and has been deemed safe. They'll also be able to tell you what the barrel is chambered for.

Second: If you don't send it back to S&W you should at least find a reputable gunsmith with a solid working knowledge of the AR platform (preferably someone who has received armorers training for the AR platform) and have them inspect the weapon thoroughly to ensure that it is safe to fire. Unfortunately, in contrast to the free service that S&W will provide, a local gunsmith is going to charge you for this work. If you just cannot see fit to send the weapon to S&W I would urge you to take this step before firing that weapon. There just isn't enough information to be confident that in-spec parts were used in its construction or that it was assembled properly. At the very least you'll want to know what the barrel is chambered for (three most likely chamberings are .223, .223 Wylde, and 5.56 NATO -- you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but you cannot shoot 5.56 in a .223 chamber, 5.56 will very likely cause malfunctions in a .223 Wylde chamber).

Since the gun has turned out to be suspect you should be sure to have it inspected before you fire it.

Again - sorry to hear about your troubles. Best of luck in whatever course of action you take and please keep us updated.
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:24 AM
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I can't believe you haven't sent this gun back to Smith... After all that has been said here.. I also have my doubts about these so called conversations you've had. You've asked for help and not taken one suggestion. And now are attempting to raise credibility questions with S&W,like it's their fault, when this problem has nothing to do with them from your story here. I take major offense with this whole situation, take your gun and shoot it and stop torturing S&W reps. If you ligitimitly wanted to get to the bottom of this, you would have sent it in weeks ago, if you are just looking for the homerun with a new gun for your possible poor transaction with a private party... shame on you..
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Last edited by turbo38gn; 02-04-2011 at 12:03 PM. Reason: sp..
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Old 02-04-2011, 09:08 AM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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Darryl Garvey is who I have been speaking to, for the record. He has "mis-spoke" several times now, and I have lost any faith in him in doing the right thing. His lack of communication skills or failure to communicate is my main reason for not having much faith. I called S&W in order to find out some history of the gun. HE called me wanting to get it back. I am willing to work with them, but not him. Not anymore. I have had 3 different, reputable, gun store owners, and one gun smith all tell me NOT to send it . If they want it, they will make some kind of arrangements to accommodate me on my terms. If not.......I'll deal with the consequences. Thanks for all the info guys, but I gotta stick with my gut on this one. They tell me this gun never existed, so how easy would it be for me to prove that it does if I don't have it anymore? Then I send it to them, on whose word? that I'll get another one, or this one back? after my experiences so far? Surely you can put yourself in my shoes............
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:43 AM
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It's possible that what you have is an illegally imported counterfit. We seized about two dozen looking very similar to what you show in your pics almost a year ago now with a couple different manufacturer logos. Not saying that yours is for a fact an illegally imported counterfit, and not trying to imply you or the person you bought it from did anything wrong, but if I were you i'd not keep it if I could not verify the pedigree as legal if I even had a hint that it might be an illegal import.

If you hold on to it, and if it is an illegal import, and you have any reason to suspect (which obviously you do from your writings) it might not be a legal, you can be held legally responsible. To my knowledge S&W has not authorized anyone to "copy" their weapons (if i'm wrong on this someone correct me please).

Your best bet is to confirm the pedigree of the weapon first. If S&W has no record of the S/N (and i'll bet they don't), if your not going to return it to S&W i'd recommend that you contact the BATF, explain the situation, and seek help in determing the pedigree if it can be determined, but i'll tell you right now if it is a counterfit they will most likely confiscate the weapon but thats better then you being caught with it in the future and going to jail over it.

There are any number of sceinarios, i've seen all sorts of weird things.

It could be the person you got it from got hold of some countefit lowers and put it together for sale. This is not illegal if the person is licensened or registered to manufacturer a firearm, but using the S&W logo would make it a countefit if they were not licensened to use the logo. Its also possible that you simply have a mis-marked rejected parts version where someone has gotten hold of rejected parts from various S&W suppliers (they should have been destroyed). Its not that the parts are really bad, they could have just been mis-marked and that was the reason they were rejected. In which case the weapon was probably illegally manufactured anyway because the use of the S&W logo implies it was manufactured by S&W and it does not appear to be of S&W production.

It could be, and this is one of those "slim and none" chances, that it is a very early S&W production for the model, and markings changed later, that was not intended to make it to market in which case S&W may or may not have a record of the serial number (the weapon should have been destroyed) and you said they didn't. This is the most unlikely sceinario as i'm sure that S&W does not sell weapons "out the back door" for non-marketed weapons. Its possible that the weapon was an S&W manufacturer and the S/N failed to get recorded some way or another (its happened by accident for other manufacturers), sending it back to S&W would allow them to verify it as one of theirs and properly record the S/N, and they would probably swap it out for you with a current production model.

It could also be a one time thing where S&W did make the weapon and placed it in the market and the weapon is a one-of-a-kind thing that was mismarked, in which case it could end up being a collectors item worth something. However, you would think that S&W would have a record of the S/N. I know at one point the M&P 15 was outsourced for manufacture/shipping/sales so a mis-marking could have happened and its possible in that case a S/N was not recorded at S&W but at the outsourced manufacturer instead, so sending it to S&W would help verify this.

Another thing is that it is a S&W weapon but it was a special unique manufacturer for a specific special client and the S/N does not show up in the normal S/N database. I know that a couple of weapon manufacturers maintain seperate databases for S/N's for specific special client products that are not available to the public. Not sure if S&W does this or not.

Now, the weapon uses the S&W trademark logo, and they tell you there is no record of the weapon, if they did not manufacture the weapon then legally the weapon does not exist. However, you do not own the weapon either regardless of what you paid for it because you can not legally own counterfit unlicensened items, and since the S&W logo appears on the weapon S&W is actually the legal owner of the weapon by presence of their trademark logo because they own the trademark logo. So they can demand that you return the weapon to them, at your expense (but they might work out something with you), as its legally their property if its countefit and uses their logo.

If S&W is willing to take responsibility for the weapon and swap it out for you, and will put that in writing (unlikely) or verify for you thats what is going to happen, then you have nothing to worry about by sending it to them and you end up with a new weapon of which your sure of the pedigree and a warranty. However, if they want it back and will not swap it out then its most likely a counterfit and if you don't send it to them they will simply contact the BATF (or Customs) who will end up seizing the weapon anyway and "possibly" (probably actually as they take a very dim view on illegal firearms) arresting and prosecuting you. The BATF (or Customs) will find you if they want, there are many methods but they will most likely subponea the S&W forums for your IP address and use that to find your ISP then subponea the ISP for the internet access account holder name which will lead them to you. If it is a counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, you don't have any terms and no one is under any obligations to make arrangements to accommodate you. It is your legal obligation to verify and ensure, without a doubt, the weapon you posess is legal. This means that if you have any doubt as to the authenticity what so ever, you are legally required to verify the legality of the firearm before retaining posession of it, and if it is not a legal firearm you have a legal obligation to surrender the firearm to a legal entity such as law enforcement....OR.... the owner of the trademarked items used in a counterfit which in this case is S&W (it is their trademarked logo), so no, S&W does not need to meet your terms. If it is counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, you have a legal obligation to act in such a manner as to abide by the law and not retain such a weapon. If the weapon is counterfit or has been imported or manufactured unlawfully, and you intentionally retain the weapon, you are in posession of an illegal weapon and although the consequences for posessing such vary depending on the circumstances, if you are prepared to deal with the consequences of fines and jail time and never being able to posess another firearm then good luck. I would not depend on the "reputable" gun store owners and gunsmith to decide your future.

Posession of the weapon by its self is not illegal, but posession of the weapon if you have doubts as to its legality is illegal. If your caught with it you will be required to show it was indeed legal and if you can't do that then your out of luck.

If it were me, i'd choose the least injurious method here and send it to S&W and let them authenticate it. That way the reasonable responsible thing was done and removes the penalties for you. If they don't swap it out then your out a weapon and your money (unless you can get the person you bought it from to refund you), but your not going to risk jail time or fines or attorney fees which will cost you a lot more.

Oh, something else. Look at the bolt. Are the letters "L" and "MP" stamped on the bolt? If so then its an LMT manufacture outsource and they were bad for not sending the S/N over to S&W at one point. I know also that at a few different points the letter prefix for the M&P 15 serial number changed - it was "SM xxxxxx" then it changed to "SW xxxxxx" (the SW did not have a '/' in it like yours does which also makes me think its possibly a counterfit), and now its just "SN xxxxxx" (Its SN on the one I got - no '/'). Try getting S&W to check the serial number without the '/' and see what comes up, i'll bet they don't have a record of that either (which is why its a generally safe bet to guess right off that S&W did not manufacture the weapon because the M&P series did not "usually" have a '/' in the letter prefix for the serial number and if it was outsourced then it could have been mis-marked that way.) Its also possible that a company commissioned S&W to produce the weapon for them, in which case it might have a different serial number prefix, for example the "S/W" like yours has - I know a company called TALO Distributors had S&W produce a run of the M&P 15 series for a surplus 5.45 x 39 round and some of those had the "S/W" prefix on the serial numbers with the S&W logo stamped into the lower on the mag well but the other markings would have been in the regular S&W locations like the caliber on the barrel, however, to my knowledge the 5.56/.223 models of the M&P were never made in a "distributor only" run as those are core components of the line of rifles and if it was something like this the serial number would have been recorded at S&W before the weapons were transfered to the special run distributor, but you will need to send it to S&W for them to make sure.

If S&W does authenticate the weapon for you, make sure you get a letter of authenticity from them - it will cost you (I think) about $50.00 to get the letter but get it and hang on to it. The only way they can verifiy the authenticity is for you to return the weapon to them.

Last edited by Foxtrot; 02-04-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:04 AM
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IF I were you, I would send it into S&W and let them sort it out. Insure it for loss when you ship it.

IF, otoh, you contact BTAF, there is a possibility that , while you have shown good faith in having them check out a suspect weapon, they will thank you for your trouble and confiscate it. MUCH better, btw than keeping it and finding out when you are seized with it.

Have you contacted your seller? Do you have a legitimate name and address for him? His response? IF he is ficticious or has passed the weapon on from an "unknown" first owner you definitely do NOT want to fire it or keep it without knowing it's history.

See? Sending it to S&W IS your best choice. That and exercising more caution when buying a firearm FTF from a non FFL holder.

A good deal is not always the cheapest. Sometimes and with some things, new or known history is the ONLY way to go.

Don't compound your mistake, do the smart thing. JMH(and educated) opinion.
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:56 PM
vzdude vzdude is offline
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After another call to S&W, Paul in Customer Service explained that it seems that the last 2 people I talked to were both mis informed. The original deal with Darryl stands, and a replacement rifle is being shipped to a local S&W dealer for an exchange. Thank you all for your advice, which after all, is what I was after in the first place! LOL The rifle will remain unfired and will be shipped to S&W soon ( Hopefully! )
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Old 02-04-2011, 02:06 PM
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After another call to S&W, Paul in Customer Service explained that it seems that the last 2 people I talked to were both mis informed. The original deal with Darryl stands, and a replacement rifle is being shipped to a local S&W dealer for an exchange. Thank you all for your advice, which after all, is what I was after in the first place! LOL The rifle will remain unfired and will be shipped to S&W soon ( Hopefully! )
Not to get into your business, but could you clear up the mystery a little further please? If they are going to swap it then they must think its a real S&W weapon....Why are the markings on the weapon the way they are?
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