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02-23-2012, 11:19 PM
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Sport ftf twice
I was at the range the other day shooting some cheap wolf ammo through my sport. On two occasions the rifle ejected the spent casing and loaded another but did not reset the trigger. I ejected those rounds and went about my business shooting. The rifle is nearly new and I've only put a couple of hundred rds through it. I almost think I may have been holding the trigger down rather than releasing it on those two occasions. I could'nt test that theory since I was out of ammo. Does anyone have any idea what might have caused this?
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02-23-2012, 11:25 PM
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It will fire when you hold the trigger down as you asked, not sure if a soft round could reset the firing pin and achieve ejection.
Did the hammer fall when the trigger was pulled. The audible click?
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02-23-2012, 11:27 PM
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No, the hammer did not fall and no click.
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02-23-2012, 11:27 PM
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Did the ejected round sound differentl when it fired prior to the FTF.
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02-23-2012, 11:29 PM
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I did'nt notice if it did.
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02-23-2012, 11:36 PM
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I haven't heard of this, seems the trigger didn't reset, let me go look at something.
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02-23-2012, 11:41 PM
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So the bcg only needs to move 1 3/4 in. to reset the trigger, there for ir couldn't eject a round and reset the trigger.... Id be looking at you trigger assembly.
How many rounds had been fired that day. Maybe some one else may have a better solution.
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02-23-2012, 11:45 PM
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I fired 40 rds that day.
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02-23-2012, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by downrange
I was at the range the other day shooting some cheap wolf ammo through my sport. On two occasions the rifle ejected the spent casing and loaded another but did not reset the trigger. I ejected those rounds and went about my business shooting. The rifle is nearly new and I've only put a couple of hundred rds through it. I almost think I may have been holding the trigger down rather than releasing it on those two occasions. I could'nt test that theory since I was out of ammo. Does anyone have any idea what might have caused this?
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Downrange,
Be very careful. If a cartridge provides the energy to only partially cycle the bolt, it may not have provided enough energy to push the projectile completely out of the barrel (squib), and you'll have an obstructed barrel.
A properly loaded cartridge provides enough energy for a full firing cycle: fire round, extract case from chamber, eject case, reset trigger, chamber new round.
My sincere advice is that the next time this happens to you, stop shooting, safe the rifle, and inspect the barrel for any obstructions.
A squib can be the genesis of a catastrophic failure.
S&W M&P 15 Sport Rifle Catastrophic Failure (exploding) - YouTube
In this video, the squib load had enough energy to extract & eject the case but not reset the trigger. You can see the WTH pause when the shooter pulls a dead trigger. He then manually charges the rifle, ejecting a live round, and chambering a fresh live round.
An AR-15 trigger will reset while the shooter is still pressing back the trigger. Separate your upper & lower. Cock the hammer & put your thumb on the hammer to arrest it's forward momentum so that it doesn't smack on the lower receiver. Press the trigger and let the hammer safely move forward. Keeping the trigger depressed, cock the hammer.
When you let off the trigger it should reset, and the hammer stays cocked.
Last edited by JaPes; 02-23-2012 at 11:52 PM.
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02-23-2012, 11:45 PM
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Clean the chamber, lube the BCG.
It might be short-stroking on you with the Wolf although from what I've read about the ammo is pretty much positive.
I'll be interested in what the cure is.
Hobie
BTW what Japes said....=+1
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02-24-2012, 12:00 AM
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Thanks for all the info and advise guys. I'll try some different ammo on my next trip(hopefully soon) and report back.
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02-24-2012, 03:09 AM
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OK; something so far missed: This is Wolf/WPA ammo. Maybe the one issue I will have with Wolf ammo is a hard primer. A ROCK HARD primer. In fact, the rifle makes almost no 'click' because the primer is soft enough to absorb the firing pin strike and muffle the sound, yet the primer is dead, so there is no ignition of powder.
I have had about 10 of these thru the last 6500 rounds of Wolf ammo in the last 8 months. Most commonly in black boxed 55&62 gr. hollow point Wolf ammo.
ANY TIME you have a FTF situation, clear the round, check the barrel, and after a suitable amount of time (Checking the barrel is sufficient time to allow for a slow cooking primer) and then carefully inspect the dead bullet. 99.5% of the time, there will be a small strike mark on the primer, but no 'crush' on the primer. Discard/ bury the dead round.
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02-24-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaPes
Downrange,
Be very careful. If a cartridge provides the energy to only partially cycle the bolt, it may not have provided enough energy to push the projectile completely out of the barrel (squib), and you'll have an obstructed barrel.
A properly loaded cartridge provides enough energy for a full firing cycle: fire round, extract case from chamber, eject case, reset trigger, chamber new round.
My sincere advice is that the next time this happens to you, stop shooting, safe the rifle, and inspect the barrel for any obstructions.
A squib can be the genesis of a catastrophic failure.
S&W M&P 15 Sport Rifle Catastrophic Failure (exploding) - YouTube
In this video, the squib load had enough energy to extract & eject the case but not reset the trigger. You can see the WTH pause when the shooter pulls a dead trigger. He then manually charges the rifle, ejecting a live round, and chambering a fresh live round.
An AR-15 trigger will reset while the shooter is still pressing back the trigger. Separate your upper & lower. Cock the hammer & put your thumb on the hammer to arrest it's forward momentum so that it doesn't smack on the lower receiver. Press the trigger and let the hammer safely move forward. Keeping the trigger depressed, cock the hammer.
When you let off the trigger it should reset, and the hammer stays cocked.
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Very good point JaPes I was thinking about a squib round too! I also seen that video on youtube.
Last edited by TangoFoxtrot; 02-27-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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02-24-2012, 11:57 AM
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His last round must have just been a fizzle, as he had no bang and no movement, wish he would have checked that round before continuing to fire.
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02-26-2012, 09:54 PM
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I shot the rifle again today with no failures. 30 rds of brass cased federals and 20 rds of same wolf ammo I shot the other day. I'm still going to contact mfg. Thanks for all the good advice.
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02-27-2012, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojodiablo
ANY TIME you have a FTF situation, clear the round, check the barrel, and after a suitable amount of time (Checking the barrel is sufficient time to allow for a slow cooking primer) and then carefully inspect the dead bullet. 99.5% of the time, there will be a small strike mark on the primer, but no 'crush' on the primer. Discard/ bury the dead round.
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How about this procedure instead?
ANY TIME you have a FTF situation, keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction for at least 30 seconds. Then, clear the round, check the barrel, and retrieve the unfired round.
Why? As you said, there is such a thing as a "slow cooking primer"....which is usually referred to as a "hang fire". It isn't the most common occurrence by any means....but why risk the possibility of an accident when you could just wait 30 seconds?
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Last edited by arizona98tj; 02-27-2012 at 09:37 PM.
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02-27-2012, 11:08 PM
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This situation sounds pretty straight forward. The rounds were likely under powered and didn't reset the hammer. No big deal.
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02-27-2012, 11:27 PM
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The round ejected, and cycled, the hammer resets at, or just prior to ejection, my bolt only needs to travel about a 1 3/4 for full reset. atleast that's how far I have to pull the ch. handle when my trigger resets, and the spent casing is just getting tossed.
bolt will reset the hammer prior to chambering the next round, I don't see where it will eject and cycle and not reset the hammer based on a full cycle.
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02-28-2012, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arizona98tj
How about this procedure instead?
ANY TIME you have a FTF situation, keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction for at least 30 seconds. Then, clear the round, check the barrel, and retrieve the unfired round.
Why? As you said, there is such a thing as a "slow cooking primer"....which is usually referred to as a "hang fire". It isn't the most common occurrence by any means....but why risk the possibility of an accident when you could just wait 30 seconds?
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My position on this??? The first thing a person does with a FTF in almost ANY situation with an AR is to rack the charging handle, as it is often that you get a fail to feed issue when having an issue with FTF. From my experience, it was about 50-50 with issued ammo if this happened. And, as such, if we had a dead one, we cleared it to get back on the stick. That's just how it was done. There was no stopping to wait 30 seconds.
I am giving the perspective that the shooter has pulled the trigger and gotten no response from the rifle. His first move is usually to pull the handle; which either way clears the chamber, or confirms a stuck round, or confirms that the rifle was actually out of ammo and did not catch on the bolt stop. In this scenario, the shooter now had a DUD on the floor next to him. Best bet is to give that thing some breathing room and leave it be for a few.
Now, if you heard an audible snap as the hammer dropped, and no bang? If you caught that part, then by all means, the correct thing to do is give it time to be sure you will not have a fizzer or a late fire issue.
With hearing plugs in, or headphones, it may be impossible to hear said snap of the trigger. Often, you won't feel a hard primer as it's still a bit soft and the hammer does not have a real slam sensation to it. As such; no feeling of a dry fire, and no report of a round is usually an indication of the bolt not charging the trigger (Which may be an incorrect situation) and as such.... the charging handle will come back, and the shooter will have a little 'bullet surprise' next to him on the floor.
I DO agree with you that the 'by the book' protocol is to wait it out on the chamber. But if you train with this rifle, waiting is not in the cards.
Thankfully...... this is not grenades we are talking about!!!!!
Last edited by rojodiablo; 02-28-2012 at 01:30 AM.
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02-28-2012, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawkhuntclub
This situation sounds pretty straight forward. The rounds were likely under powered and didn't reset the hammer. No big deal.
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The trigger should be reset BEFORE the round is fully ejected by the function- mechanically, not by speed or impact force. If you pull the charging handle slooowly, the trigger should set about 3/4 of the way to a full pull on the charging handle, leaving no doubt.
If it can eject and feed a new round, the trigger should have been set.
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02-28-2012, 10:46 AM
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That's what I'm thinking.
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03-22-2012, 10:06 PM
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Smith and wesson deburred the hammer take up. I hope to fire it soon.
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03-23-2012, 12:27 AM
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That was nice of them. Good to hear!! Hopefully, all issues are resolved.
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03-23-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojodiablo
The trigger should be reset BEFORE the round is fully ejected by the function- mechanically, not by speed or impact force. If you pull the charging handle slooowly, the trigger should set about 3/4 of the way to a full pull on the charging handle, leaving no doubt.
If it can eject and feed a new round, the trigger should have been set.
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You have a good point. I'm not sure how it could possibly eject the case without resetting the hammer.
This has happened to me before when using Tula. I stopped and checked the barrel for obstructions; none found. No problems since.
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