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Old 06-28-2012, 06:35 PM
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Default Rust in my melonite barrel or is it copper fouling? *Pictures added*

So I just got my Sport and went to clean it and noticed some discoloration in the chamber as well as what looks like rust along the rifling close to the muzzle. I searched here and didn't find anything about it so I thought I might ask you guys to see if any one else has had this on their rifles.

I'm using Frog Lube to clean it and all the patches come out black and not rust colored. It's a brand new rifle, but I know they test fire them at the factory, plus I'm sure they put oil on before they ship them out.

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Old 06-28-2012, 06:50 PM
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Mine is not discolored in any way. Did running patches through it help, or is it still there? Did you run a brush or barrel snake through it, or just patches?
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:58 PM
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Mine is not discolored in any way. Did running patches through it help, or is it still there? Did you run a brush or barrel snake through it, or just patches?
First I ran a bore snake through, then I pushed patches soaked in the Frog Lube through. Would alternate wet/dry a few times then wet again and let it sit. Then I ran a brush through, then one of those mops and then another patch. They have all been coming out black to varying degrees. The rust colored stuff is still there.

I'm not sure if Frog Lube would turn the copper blue on the patch or not. Perhaps I should use something else? Is it possible I got a bad barrel?
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:40 PM
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Get some foam bore cleaner and see if these dark areas disappear from the bore and chamber. I have read postings in the last few weeks where Russian steel case ammo was causing corrosion when the ammo was marked non-corrosive.

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Old 06-28-2012, 08:17 PM
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I have had some copper fouling but usually it cleans right up.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:26 PM
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Get some Hoppes Copper Solvent, run a sopping wet patch down the barrel, and let it sit the requisite 24 hours. Next day, run a patch lightly moistened with the copper solvent. If you see green on the patch and the discoloration is off the barrel, it was copper fouling.

If it is rust, call S&W.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:27 PM
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Two points. Frog Lube needs to have copper solvent used occasionally. The other is that rust has been reported (rarely) on the XD forums. XD s are also melonite treated. It is not a rustproof coating but rust resistant. I use Frog Lube and have had no rust or copper obvious in my bbl. but it is chromed, not melonite. Try a copper solvent as advised in this Amazon review......................................

"Just like to do a follow up review since my first one. I had plenty of opportunities to test frog lube's ability to remove copper fouling. Let me just say this first, all in all this is by far the best lube I have used. It removes lead fouling like nothing else. On top of that, it's environmentally friendly. It however does not have the ability to remove copper fouling. Being that this product repels petroleum products, there are still plenty of potent copper removers out there that are petroleum free. Either Barnes CR10 or KG-12, etc will get the job done for those seeking to remove copper fouling. If you do not shoot copper jacketed bullets, then frog lube is a complete gun care package for your firearms. I still keep my petroleum free copper solvents around in addition to the frog lube just in case I need to get rid the copper fouling."
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:09 PM
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I guess I'll have to get some copper solvent and hope this is the issue. I know S&W has great customer service, but I'd hate to have to send it back to them so soon.

One thing that gets me though is that this was (supposedly) a new firearm. So I don't get why there would be any fouling in the barrel at this point. But I'm also not sure just what the factory testing procedures are. However, I did come across another posting on this forum regarding an M&P9 (also Melonite) that someone bought new which had copper fouling in it.
I just hope I'm being paranoid, it would suck if the Melonite on my barrel was defective. The Melonite 1/8 twist barrel was really the major reason for my trading up.
I know S&W would make good on it though.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:20 PM
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You are being paranoid. Clean the copper fouling out your barrel instead of imagining problems.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:24 PM
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You are being paranoid. Clean the copper fouling out your barrel instead of imagining problems.
I like where your head's at!
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:27 PM
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You are being paranoid. Clean the copper fouling out your barrel instead of imagining problems.
When you hear hoofbeats look for horses not zebras.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:32 PM
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You are being paranoid. Clean the copper fouling out your barrel instead of imagining problems.
I knew I was missing a name today....Dragon88 has always been a source of great information also!!!
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
Get some foam bore cleaner and see if these dark areas disappear from the bore and chamber. I have read postings in the last few weeks where Russian steel case ammo was causing corrosion when the ammo was marked non-corrosive.

Do NOT use foaming bore cleaner in the AR 15 platform. The stuff stays sticky, and will cause issues with the gas port.

The modern Russian ammo is not corrosive today, and has not been for several years.
When the rifle is shipped, it has oil in it, which is applied after test firing. In general, you are going to see some dark patches for a short while, it is normal. If you use a copper cutting cleaner, you will see serious green/ blue & black on your patches if there is much copper present. The cleaner changes color and is an indicator that there is copper present.

Remember; just because you see a little color on a patch does not mean you have 'Copper fouling' in your barrel. The real test for this is going to boil down to accuracy tests/ grouping. While it is desirable, a gin clear patch is not the end all, be all for rifle cleanliness and proper function.

Frog lube tends to collect tons of goop, crud and powder in AR 15's. I tried it, and switched back to Slip, and similar light oils. They run much, much cleaner thru the shooting I do.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:00 AM
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It has been my thought for some time that many people fret to much over cleaning AR type rifle barrels. Unfortunately, the "M&P Sport" doesn't appear to have a chrome lined bore (like a proper AR type weapon should), so copper fouling, rust, and barrel life will be much more of an issue than with a mil spec barrel.

The unlined barrel will need to be cleaned after every use to prevent rust. Copper will need periodic removal, but don't go overboard with it. I'd recommend "normal" cleanings with CLP and limited use of copper solvents. A bore snake is great for leaving a trace of CLP to help prevent rust.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by VMaxSplat View Post
It has been my thought for some time that many people fret to much over cleaning AR type rifle barrels. Unfortunately, the "M&P Sport" doesn't appear to have a chrome lined bore (like a proper AR type weapon should), so copper fouling, rust, and barrel life will be much more of an issue than with a mil spec barrel.

The unlined barrel will need to be cleaned after every use to prevent rust. Copper will need periodic removal, but don't go overboard with it. I'd recommend "normal" cleanings with CLP and limited use of copper solvents. A bore snake is great for leaving a trace of CLP to help prevent rust.
Sir I must disagree with you seriously, If you read the independent engineering studies on Melonite it surpasses chrome lining in every study and case. It is harder, it has more lubricity, it wont flake or wear out. It is not a plating but a treatment that actually is thicker than the chrome lining and according to the engineering studies it is rust resistant also to the level of chrome plating. The molecules are changed such that iron oxide (rust) wont adhere to them. If you will look under the sticky posts for the one titled "barrel specs for sport" you will find a bunch of these studies. Every so often we have someone come in and try to extol the virtues of chrome plating. At the time these weapons were designed chrome lining was the best that they could do. Metallurgy has come a long way since and the result is Melonite or Salt Nitride Carburization. Please take some time to read it. If you notice S&W originally put this barrel on the Sport now it is going to a lot of the other models and some of the biggest names in Barrel manufacturing are starting to use it as well. Have a good day!

Here is the link: http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...ecs-sport.html
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:46 AM
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It would probably take a metallurgical engineer to really tell us about melonite and its properties, but the fact remains, the mil spec is hard chrome. Another fact remains. In a quick run down of S&W's "law enforcement" M&P15 product line, I am mostly seeing chromed bores, no melonite. The melonite treatment seems to be reserved for the consumer grade rifles. I must confess though, until your post I thought melonite was an exterior treatment and the OPs bore was unlined.

I've never shot melonite barrels, but do have many rounds thru various chrome lined barrels. A good chrome barrel is accurate, cleans easily, doesn't rust and lasts quite a while.

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Old 06-29-2012, 12:23 PM
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If you read the treatises in the link you will learn a lot, they do actual comparisons between hard chrome and Melonite. The Melonite wins hands down. Most Police departments have to go by Mil-spec standards when they buy AR type rifles. There are also a lot of departments buying the Sport. In a couple of different forums there are comparisons being done between Colts with the Chrome lined barrel and the Sport. I honestly am waiting to see what failures if any are suffered between the two. The Sport has already shown itself to be twice as accurate in both tests. A lot of people drink the mil-spec koolaid....just remember that spec is close to 50 years old. B52 bombers are also that old but you don't see any of them running around with the avionics that they had when they were new. Just because the Military doesn't want to go through the hassle of a barrel material re-eval it doesn't make their spec the best. I now have two melonite treated barrels one from S&W and another from AR Performance. I love them both. Also it is hard as heck to scratch them....
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Old 06-29-2012, 12:24 PM
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FWIW, there were several reports of rust problems on the XD forums. Springfield Armory XDs are spec'ed with Melonite treatment for both the slides and bbl.s

I own two XDs, an early "M" model and a more recent "SC" carry weapon. I have treated both with Froglube, wear the SC concealed daily in humidity and exposed to sweat and have never had any rust at all. My AR has been treated with FL too and cleans easily. I do clean all my weapons after use and run the bolt on the AR wet with FL, just as I would with any CLP or lube.

I feel the Sport bbl. benefits most from the twist type rather than the melonite but think it is a good process. Any bbl. can show surface rust from abuse or lack of maintenance, IMHO.
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Old 06-29-2012, 12:31 PM
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S&W has just added two new M&P 15 rifles to their list. (Model M&P15 MOE Mid MAGPUL® ) which has a melonite barrels. Check their website.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:04 PM
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A lot of people drink the mil-spec koolaid....just remember that spec is close to 50 years old.

No koolaid here, just 15 years of satisfaction with hard chromed AR barrels. I understand that melonite is working for you and that is great to hear. Your feedback is appreciated and I have learned new things about melonite from your helpful posts.

My early XD40 slide will rust if you look at it the wrong way. It may be pre-melonite though. That is a distant memory, but it seems like the early guns were finished different than the later production units. Is that correct?

It may just be that I am suspicious by nature when it comes to things like this. Let me explain. Hard chrome is a separate process. Wouldn't melonite treatment be done to the bore and exterior of a barrel at the same time? If so, that eliminated a process step (and increased profit margins?) in manufacture. I can't help but wonder if that is really the motivation behind deviating from the milspec.

If melonite proves itself over the next few years as being better than chrome, I'll eventually change. To prove that in my mind, the US Military will need to adopt it as the new standard.

Until then, I'll personally stick with hard chrome because it has worked for me over the tens of thousands of rounds of 556 downrange in the past years. It has also worked for our military for the past 50 years.

Back to the OP, I wouldn't worry to much about a small amount of copper fouling in an assault rifle barrel. If it gets heavy, there are product readily available that will get it under control.

Happy shooting.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:12 PM
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I understand exactly where you are coming from...being as I wasnt a fan of Mattels toy when I was active duty...and then never even thinking about owning one until I shot my nephews OR last fall. I did a bunch of research before I purchased one....where I live we dont have a rust problem on anything...there is still farm equipment sitting in fields that have been there 30 years and looks like it was parked yesterday. We all tend to stick with what works for us and as long as we are happy with what we have thats all that matters....Have a great weekend VMaxSplat, I do love those bullets!!
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:21 PM
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Just to add, I think the XDs have been melonite treated for the whole US bound production run. However I also believe that just like stainless, a below par batch of steel will rust regardless of a surface treatment or even nitrate type baths.

In an analogy to vehicles being undercoated, years ago it was learned that undercoating which was being sold as "rust preventative" on cars and trucks only "locked in" corrosion that was already present in poorly treated or weathered metal parts from the factory.

In other words, kind of a garbage in, garbage out thing. IF the metal being treated isn't corrosion free at the time of treatment without first removing the corrosion present, no treatment will be effective.

I realize this is anecdotal and am not an expert on metals or rust but know the effects of "sealing in" rust on an auto. Like painting over it it simply masks the rust, which will soon find its way to the surface again.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojodiablo View Post
Do NOT use foaming bore cleaner in the AR 15 platform. The stuff stays sticky, and will cause issues with the gas port.

The modern Russian ammo is not corrosive today, and has not been for several years.
When the rifle is shipped, it has oil in it, which is applied after test firing. In general, you are going to see some dark patches for a short while, it is normal. If you use a copper cutting cleaner, you will see serious green/ blue & black on your patches if there is much copper present. The cleaner changes color and is an indicator that there is copper present.

Remember; just because you see a little color on a patch does not mean you have 'Copper fouling' in your barrel. The real test for this is going to boil down to accuracy tests/ grouping. While it is desirable, a gin clear patch is not the end all, be all for rifle cleanliness and proper function.

Frog lube tends to collect tons of goop, crud and powder in AR 15's. I tried it, and switched back to Slip, and similar light oils. They run much, much cleaner thru the shooting I do.
1. I use foam bore cleaner in all my firearms, AK-47, SKS, M1 Garand AND my AR15 PLUS all my bolt actions. I use break cleaner to blast it from the gas systems and bores of the gas operated rifles. Please give a little credit to others and the fact that YOU are not the only one who knows how to clean firearms. I believe in sparing the cleaning rod and spoiling your bore. You need to get out more and visit other AR forums, and you might want to read this excellent AR cleaning sticky at M4Carbine.net. (they use foam bore cleaner)


2. In other forums people have gotten Wolf ammunition with corrosive primers and have taken photos of their rusty chambers, bores and flash suppressors. This ammo is believed to have come from the Ukraine and the boxes mis-marked as non-corrosive.

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Old 06-29-2012, 03:14 PM
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Okay so here are some close up shots of what I am talking about. I talked with Smith and Wesson and they felt it was probably just copper fouling, but to send them pictures so they can see if the barrel needs refinishing or not. I still haven't tried copper solvent yet, but I will, I wanted to get pics taken first. Bear in mind that this is a brand new rifle. I haven't fired it yet. It's only been test fired at the factory.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
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Okay so here are some close up shots of what I am talking about. I talked with Smith and Wesson and they felt it was probably just copper fouling, but to send them pictures so they can see if the barrel needs refinishing or not. I still haven't tried copper solvent yet, but I will, I wanted to get pics taken first. Bear in mind that this is a brand new rifle. I haven't fired it yet. It's only been test fired at the factory.

That appears to be minor copper fouling. My advice would be, don't sweat it. If the rifle were mine, I'd go give it a "proper" break-in. That would probably consist of 300 or so rounds, mostly rapid fire, lol.
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:27 PM
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That appears to be minor copper fouling. My advice would be, don't sweat it. If the rifle were mine, I'd go give it a "proper" break-in. That would probably consist of 300 or so rounds, mostly rapid fire, lol.
Extremely minor. I just finished working for two days on a 300 WSM that hadn't had the copper removed in 500 rounds. It still looks worse than that, but I'm calling it good. I figure I'd have to work for two more days to get it all out.

FWIW, very few rifles will shoot their best without a certain amount of fouling.
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:57 PM
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And this isn't anything unusual to find in a brand new gun that I haven't fired yet? The factory testing would be enough to leave that fouling there?

Please excuse my ignorance and paranoia here. I don't mean to irritate anyone.
My first AR had a comp on it which made it impossible to see down the muzzle. It was NCL to begin with so I wouldn't have been shocked to see rust.
My first ever rifle purchase was years ago with my 30-06 and I do remember copper fouling on that gun but it was only after I had fired it and the color was the blue/green of copper after oxidation. So I guess seeing it like this came as a shock to me because, well, I've never seen it like this. But I am glad that so far the consensus is that of copper fouling. And again, I'm sorry if my paranoia is irking people.

I should also probably learn how to clean a gun better...
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:10 PM
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+1 on the copper residue...see how it follows the edge of the land. Maybe yours was one chosen to test fire or something like that. VMaxsplat was right I would break the barrel in (I personnaly dont believe it has to be rapid fire shots) 100 rounds should do it. Use the time to get your sights really adjusted and get the feel for your rifle but I believe it is copperfouling. I used borebutter when breaking in my barrel but there are a lot of things you can use. I would clean it and then run a patch with a little bore butter on it through it and then go shoot it. I helps to season the material and I thought that if it worked real well on my Hawkins it would work on my AR...
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PainterlyShotgroup View Post
And this isn't anything unusual to find in a brand new gun that I haven't fired yet? The factory testing would be enough to leave that fouling there?

Please excuse my ignorance and paranoia here. I don't mean to irritate anyone.
It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.

It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.

It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.



How many more times does it need to be said?
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.

It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.

It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.



How many more times does it need to be said?

I feel like I've been here before.....


How did this turn into a hard chrome vs melonite argument?

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Old 06-29-2012, 11:51 PM
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I feel like I've been here before.....


How did this turn into a hard chrome vs melonite argument?

Who knows. Threads like this are really irritating, and very common on the forum these days. Stressing over copper fouling in your barrel, and contacting S&W, and contemplating sending it back for repair, when you haven't even fired it yet.

Shoot your gun. Clean the copper fouling with copper solvent. Stop imagining problems. Dang it....how hard is that?
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Old 06-30-2012, 12:04 AM
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Who knows. Threads like this are really irritating, and very common on the forum these days. Stressing over copper fouling in your barrel, and contacting S&W, and contemplating sending it back for repair, when you haven't even fired it yet.

Shoot your gun. Clean the copper fouling with copper solvent. Stop imagining problems. Dang it....how hard is that?
Okay man. No need to get upset. I hear ya loud and clear now. I'm deciding on a solvent to order. I'll clean it, shoot it and enjoy it. Thanks everyone for your input!
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PainterlyShotgroup View Post
And this isn't anything unusual to find in a brand new gun that I haven't fired yet? The factory testing would be enough to leave that fouling there?
You need to figure that the first five shots (or whatever S&W fires for proofing and function checking) are going to be on new Melonite or chrome. These first shots will be like rubbing the bullets over fine sand paper until the finish smooths out.

I don't believe in the shoot one and clean theory of break in. That's another topic and doesn't affect chromed or Melonite finished barrels anyway. What I have noticed is that it usually take a minimum of 40 shots for a rifle barrel to settle down and start shooting respectable groups.

Run a couple of patches down the bore, go to the range, put a couple of boxes of ammo down range, clean, and repeat.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:50 AM
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I feel like I've been here before.....


How did this turn into a hard chrome vs melonite argument?

I must apologize for that but when someone posts that the melonite barrel is not as good as a chrome barrel, and talks about the melonite plated barrel I always feel the need to make a correction. I should learn to ignore those statements but they go to the heart of the Sport, that really nice barrel. And that melonite is not a plating but a treatment inside and out. My apologies to the readers of this thread and especially to the OP.
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Old 06-30-2012, 12:24 PM
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I must apologize for that but when someone posts that the melonite barrel is not as good as a chrome barrel, and talks about the melonite plated barrel I always feel the need to make a correction. I should learn to ignore those statements but they go to the heart of the Sport, that really nice barrel. And that melonite is not a plating but a treatment inside and out. My apologies to the readers of this thread and especially to the OP.
No apologies necessary Oneyepn. As with any conversation, discussion forums tend to branch off in various directions at times.
If anyone should apologize, I feel like it should be me for letting my paranoia get in the way of accepting sound experience and info.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:04 PM
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I'm deciding on a solvent to order. I'll clean it, shoot it and enjoy it. Thanks everyone for your input!
Just go to your local gun store.



^ Run a wet patch down your bore. Let it sit for the required 24 hours. After the wait, pull patches through. The patches will have a blue-green residue on it.

When in doubt, reach for good ol' Hoppes.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:27 PM
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No apologies necessary Oneyepn. As with any conversation, discussion forums tend to branch off in various directions at times.
If anyone should apologize, I feel like it should be me for letting my paranoia get in the way of accepting sound experience and info.
And this is why this forum is above the rest.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:51 PM
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Trying not to beat a dead horse here...I'm trying the Hoppe's Copper Solvent now on my 686's. Should I expect to remove every/all trace of copper from the barrel, or should I expect some traces to remain?

I've put about 200 rounds of FMJ through the new barrel. Streaks are on the edges of the rifling only.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:56 PM
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In my experience all traces will be cleaned out but YMMV. Sometimes I go overboard with the brush and the patches but as was said in a different thread "The Melonite is Harder than anything you will clean it with" But also I find that barrels in general are harder than bronze and or steel brushes.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:06 PM
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That appears to be minor copper fouling. My advice would be, don't sweat it. If the rifle were mine, I'd go give it a "proper" break-in. That would probably consist of 300 or so rounds, mostly rapid fire, lol.
I prefer to break a barrel in a bit easy before playing master blaster. About like breaking in a new woodburner or fireplace. Get it warm and cool down a bit. Check everything over. Next a little warmer and less cool. Like doing slow fire 5 shot target groups for sighting in.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:11 PM
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I used CU+2 copper remover by Bore Tech. Followed the instructions on the bottle and it did wonders. Hopefully I'll get to break this gun in tomorrow.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:00 AM
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That would be copper fouling, don't waste your time with the Hoppe's copper solvent, get yourself some Sweet's or Shooter's Choice, a nylon brush and cleaning that copper out. Soak the bore, brush it then wet patch dry patch until they come out clean, i.e. no color on the patch. Copper will usually show as green or blue depending on the solvent being used.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:07 AM
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its just a little bit of copper and its going to look way worse after you actually shoot it. I get the feeling like you are going to be spending a lot of time cleaning barrels.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:12 PM
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This subject has been covered before. Use the orange search button.
Thread closed! Schultz!!

Oops, wrong web site......

Just kidding guys.

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Keith R said "And this is why this forum is above the rest." Amen.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:15 PM
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Uh....guys...my post was a lame parody of another caustic AR forum where the OP is often cut off and closed down within just a few posts.

Sorry Painterly for killing your thread. I apologize.

Hobie
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:13 PM
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Uh....guys...my post was a lame parody of another caustic AR forum where the OP is often cut off and closed down within just a few posts.

Sorry Painterly for killing your thread. I apologize.

Hobie
LOL, I got the joke Hobie, no worries. Everyone was right about the fouling and I should have listened right away instead of being paranoid. This thread should die.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:11 PM
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It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.

It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.

It's copper fouling. Stop being paranoid about it and just clean the barrel with a copper solvent.



How many more times does it need to be said?
One more. I recommend Sweet's.
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Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles Thread, Rust in my melonite barrel or is it copper fouling? *Pictures added* in Smith & Wesson Rifles and Shotguns; So I just got my Sport and went to clean it and noticed some discoloration in the chamber as well ...
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