Went out today shooting AR's with some friends. One of them had an Armalite 180/AR18. Very interesting piston driven AR with a folding stock made in 1963. Thought some of you might like seeing one. I sure did and enjoyed shooting it as well.

I carried one tucked under the headrests of my patrol car for many years.
It brought calm to some hairy situations.
Then it rode in a gun rack in my pickup on the ranch for over 20 years.
It made quite a few varmints bite the dust over the years.

It's still on duty behind a closet door. Never a hangup or glitch in more than 40 years.

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Eccentric old coot

There were three versions of this gun - the first made by Armalite in Costa Mesa, CA, the second produced by Howa in Japan, and the last by Sterling in the U.K. up into the mid-1980's (I don't believe any were made, even by Armalite, prior to 1969). Do you recall which type the one you shot was? There's an excellent article on the AR-18/180 in the April 2012 issue of The Blue Press.

Finding the original scope and its proprietary mount for these is a real challenge, but even with the standard iron sights, they have a good reputation for accuracy.

I've attached a photo of the AR-180 as manufactured by Sterling. Note the 40 round magazine, also made by Sterling. These magazines will fit an AR-15, but ordinary AR-15 magazines will not fit an AR-180 without cutting an additional catch slot into them.

Attached Images

AR180.jpg (42.5 KB, 327 views)

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

I had never heard of much less seen one until today. Was under the impression that piston driven AR's were a relatively new idea. I learned something new today!

This one was made by Sterling. The guy that had it was talking about the mags and said he had been looking for an optic and mount for some time. He said it was made around '63 but that may not be correct because he also said it was the precursor to the AR-15 which I now know isn't correct. I did a search and found that article when I got home, it was a good read. We shot it at 50 yds with irons and it had around 1" groups with M193.

I had a Sterling version for many years until I foolishly sold it off .
As I recall Eugene Stoner designed both the AR15 and AR180,
The newer 180 was intended to fix the ailments of the AR15 but it was rejected by the govt. as they were too heavily invested in the AR15 platform.

IMO The 180 was not quite as sturdy as the Ar15 but they worked very well.
The 180 was easier to build and made of stampings instead of the Ar15's castings,
It incorporated a tappet rod that struck the bolt face and exhausted the gas into the front handguard instead of internally like the AR15 and had a true folding stock.

The bolt has two smaller recoil springs (like a P38 pistol) which allows the stock to neatly side fold instead of the protruding buttstock tube of the AR15 .

Another neat feature was the quick release see thru scope mount.


Some side notes,
First Goony is correct except the AR15 mags must also have the lug under the catch hole hammered down or they wont slide into the mag well without brute force ( I know as I had to mod a few).

Next is apparently Sterling used the AR180 action for the foundation of the british light infantry weapon as the internals are almost identicle. (Too bad Armalite didnt offer us that bullpup version instead of the non folding polymer AR180 copy when they tried to reintroduce it a few years back).

Also the only part that will interchange with the AR15 is the extractor claw and spring as they have the same bolt face ,
AR15 flash suppressors will thread on but are shaped differently.

Lastly is if you decide to pick one up make sure the bolt hold open works as IMO that part is extra prone to breakage .

This is absolutely cool information, thank you all!

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Grover Oathkeeper

Very cool, thanks for sharing. It's fun to get to shoot things that you have never seen before!

If I remember correctly Armalite made a later version called the AR180B which functioned with unmodified AR15/M16 magazines. It did not have a folding stock and the lower was polymer of some sort. I wish I had picked one up back in the late 90s/early 2000s. I don't remember them being that much more than a Mini14 at the time.

Two more tidibits,
I forgot to mention that M16 bayonets also fit the AR180 ,
The select fire version was called the "AR18" and it was available in a short barrel version as well.

Also a wood stock version was made in very limited numbers,
.

The original design had a smaller charging handle which was much nicer looking , the later one was enlarged to double as a forward assist,

One thing that stuck in my mind was while they went to great lengths to prevent the commercial AR15 from being converted to FA the Ar180 appears to simply have had the tooth on the selector switch filed down to accomplish SA fire only, The FA sear appears to be intact which might make the AR180 a fair candidate for legal conversion to select fire through the ATF application process ,
I do not know anything about the process just saying that if there is a legal path to do so the selector switch appears to be the only part that would need to be changed and it would be inexpensive to convert..

Mine was one of the ones built by Howa.

I have the scope mount. I put a Bushnell 3X9 power scope on it, but found for what I needed the scope wasn't necessary.

I used 30 round M-16 magazines, a simple slot machined into the side of the magazine was all that was needed to adapt them to the AR-180.

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Eccentric old coot

I have owned several of both the Costa Mesa and Howa versions but stayed away from the Sterling made ones. I found both of the original versions to be reliable and relatively accurate. I wished I had kept one ,but got rid of them in 1988 when the first ban on "funny looking rifles" went into effect. Prices being paid were high and I took advantage by selling a bucket load. Today I wish I had kept the Sig Amt and PE57 as well as some of the HK Models. Oh well, the money went into the Smith collection so I do take comfort in that.

Actually the Howa was the better made of the three as far as finish goes. They also came from the factory with part of the bayonet lug ground off. I don't know the specifics, but apparently there is a law in Japan that prevents them from building and marketing a gun for export to the civilian market that allows the mounting of a bayonet. Apparently they're concerned about drive by bayoneting too!

I have one that I've owned off an on for the past 37 years. I first picked it up used at a gun show for $175 and one of my best friends and I have traded it back and forth to each other several times over the years. The last trade back to me was about 7 or 8 years ago. I traded him a 2nd generation Glock 23 with night sights and some extra mags. I told him the only way he was getting it back again was in my will. I just love that gun. It has never missed a lick and is extremely accurate for its intended purposes. I've always wanted to pick up an AR18, but somehow over the years, even though I was a Class III dealer, one always eluded me. The unique thing about it is that when the stock is folded, even though it has an 18" barrel, it's still shorter, overall, than my 14 1/2" M16A1 Carbine with the stock collapsed. They weren't designed for buttstroking, but if the stock does break off you can still keep firing. Try that with an M16!

I purchased an Armalite Sterling AR-180 back in 1984 or '85, when I was stationed in Upstate N.Y. It came with the original Q.D. scope mount with a Colt 4X (or maybe 3X, I forget right now) scope, seven 30 round mags and a sling, for $400.

I still have it. It's extremely accurate. Every person I've handed it to has been able to consistently hit with it, from the very first round. I've never had the slightest problem with it (despite it being the "inferior" Sterling model). I do, however, try to baby the folding mechanism, as I'm not overly confident of its durability.

The good news, for those interested in acquiring one, is that I've seen quite a few at gun shows, for what I consider to be quite reasonable prices. The fact seems to be that they just aren't that popular or sought after.

Tim

Love the old 180.
The 180B not so much.

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Hold my beer and watch this!

I actually prefer the newer AR-180B with it's polymer lower that housed the standard AR trigger group. It takes standard AR magazines which is a huge plus. It's an accurate and totally dependable rifle that I enjoy shooting.

Attached Images

AR180b.jpg (115.2 KB, 168 views)

I've owned both the AR-180 and the AR-180B, I liked both but liked the AR-180 more. Paid $250.00 for the AR-180 with extra mags, a few accesories, and a factory parts kit - and $300 for the AR-180B used with extra mags and some accesories.

Still have the AR-180, haven't fired it in a long time because its on what seems to be permanent loan to my son so maybe I should say I had an AR-180. . The AR-180B I sold in 2003.

I see AR-180's and AR-180B's on occaision at gun shows and have actually thought about picking up another of each.

Foxtrot, I believe if you reread the history you will find the AR-18 was built after the AR-15. After Fairchild sold the AR-15 rights to Colt and spun off Armalite as a separate company. The AR-18 was a full auto rifle developed by Armalite because they didnt have the rights to the AR-15 and were designing a rifle to compete against it. The AR-180 was developed as a semi-auto version of the AR-18 and was first marketed in 1969. The AR-15 was designed in 1957 the AR-18 in 1963.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Was going on memory and when I realized it wasn't correct I removed it. You uhhh... didn't catch the removal did you. If your going to stalk my posts then keep up

What I really wanted to say, in short, was the AR-180 and AR-180B are derived from the AR-18 which was influenced by the AR-15 design.

The AR-18 was basically a sheet metal version of the AR-15 with a different gas system. Armalite sold the AR-15 to Colt too early, and by the time the AR-18 was developed and tested it was too late because the Army by then had standardized the AR-15. After the AR-180 was developed the British ripped it off and developed it into a bull pup version they designated the SA-80 which was later adopted by the British as the L85.

Foxtrot I dont stalk your posts, I just saw an error, wasnt trying to offend you either. My physical limitations mean that I am on the computer way more than I want to be. LOL

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Grover Oathkeeper

You didn't offend me, I was kidding.

It's alright Grover. We all know you've only got oneyeopn....

Yeah I do but I am going to keep it open for one of these. I will bet it has a way slower twist rate which would let me load some of those really explosive varmint bullets to high speeds

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Grover Oathkeeper

I certainly hope you do not get your hands on an original AR-180 and abuse it like that. The reason is an original AR-180 is a prized collectors item.

The AR-180, modern day AR-15, M-16 and todays M-4, lineage actually began with the Armalite AR-10. In 1955 the Army wanted a replacement for the M1 Garand, Armalite submitted the 7.62 mm AR-10 for consideration. No one had seen a military rifle like the AR-10, it had an aircraft grade aluminum receiver and weighed less than seven pounds, the bolt locked into a steel extension on the barrel and not into the receiver itself, its stock and furniture were plastic. The Springfield Armory T-44 and T-48 (which was a version of the FN FAL) were submitted earlier than the Armalite and they used wood and traditional steel/forged construction. The head start Springfield had could not be overcome by Armalite and they lost the race to be have the AR-10 adopted, the Springfield Armory T-44 was adopted as the M-14 rifle in 1959. However, in 1956 U.S. Army officials asked ArmaLite to develop a lighter smaller caliber version of the 7.62 caliber AR-10, the rifle developed was a 5.56 mm cartridge development model called the AR-15.

The AR-15 was too late to be considered against the T-44 and T-48 and did not fit into the long-range marksmanship doctrine of that time period. Armalite then turned its attention to the international military market and the AR-10 was licensed to the Dutch Artillerie Inrichtingen for sale on the international military market. Sales were very limited at best, no one had ever seen a rifle like this, it was radically different from the more traditional wood/steel models already in use or being purchased. Armalite licensed the designs and trademarks of the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt in 1959 (eventually selling them completly to Colt). In 1959 Armalite developed the AR-16 based upon the AR-10 design but the AR-16 was dropped in development. The AR-16 was a sheet metal version of the AR-10, it never entered production but elements of its design influenced the 1995 design of the AR-10B.

Colt had managed to have the newly acquired (from Armalite) patent AR-15 design adopted by the U.S. military. Armalite was in trouble, they had sold the AR-15 patent too early to Colt, and the AR-10 had failed to attract its intended market and they had sold that patent to Colt as well. Armalite needed to recover from those errors and began development of a new rifle that would not violate the Stoner gas system patents which now belonged to Colt in the AR-10 and AR-15 patents. When the U.S. military adopted the AR-15 it gave legitimacy to the 5.56 mm cartridge, Armalite needed to compete in its effort to replace the AR-15, the result was the AR-18 using the 5.56 mm cartridge beginning development in 1963 and becoming the Armalite primary focus for about 20 years. The AR-18 used the things learned from the AR-15 and AR-16 development and was a sheet metal AR-15 with a different gas system using a Tokarev style sliding gas cylinder under the handguards. The U.S. Army was directed to re-evaluate the AR-18 in 1969, however, the AR-18 failed to displace the AR-15 which by 1969 had been completly standardized by the U.S. Army. There were eventually two versions of the AR-18, the standard AR-18 with selective fire and the AR-18S with selective fire and short 10.12 inch barrel that had a cone shaped flash suppressor. The AR-18S was manufacturered by Sterling, sometimes its incorrectly thought and argued the 'S' in the designation stands for 'Sterling' but it doesn't and stands for 'short' in recognition of the 10.12 inch barrel. Nederlandsche Wapen-en Munitiefabriek (NWM) of Den Bosch, the Netherlands, received a production license for the AR-18 but its not factually known if any AR-18's were actually produced by them. There have been a few claims over the years of at least 20 being made by NWM but the claims have never been substantiated and there is no documentation of manufacturing, shipments, or production schedules which indicate any AR-18s were made by NWM. Its thought that NWM after receiving the AR-18 license also began getting overtures from Stoner for the Stoner 63 platform and decided not to produce the AR-18 as a result.

The AR-18, designed at ArmaLite by Arthur Miller along with George Sullivan and Charles Dorchester in 1963, has been the inspiration for later weapons such as the British SA-80, SAR-80 and SR-88 from Singapore, Austrian Steyr AUG, Heckler and Koch G36, and the Japanese Howa Type 89. After rejecting the AR-18 for military use the British copied the AR-18 design into a bullpup version called the SA-80 which was adopted by the British military as the L85, the bullpup conversion from AR-18 to the SA-80 was by Enfield. Another bullpup version of the AR-18 was the Australian Bushmaster M17S.

With military market sales being a failure, Armalite shifted to the commercial market and produced a commercial semi-auto only version of the AR-18 called the AR-180. Production of the AR-18 continued by Armalite for about 20 years and all production of the AR-18 line ceased in 1979. Howa ceased production of the AR-18/AR-180 in 1974 when Japanese government export controls forced Howa to cease all small arms production. Sterling produced both the AR-18 and AR-180 from 1975 to 1983, but then continued with just limited AR-180 production until 1985 then ceased production.

And thats how the AR-180 came to be. In 2001 Armalite resurrected the AR-180 in a somewhat modified form as the AR-180B intended for the civilian and law enforcement markets. The AR-180B featured the same AR-18 layout and action but used a molded polymer lower, has a standard AR-15 trigger group and rear sight parts along with an AR-15 magazine release and uses standard AR-15/M16 magazines, but excludes the original AR-18/180 spring loaded dust cover for the cocking handle slot. The AR-180B replaced the original folding buttstock and flash suppressor with a plastic fixed buttstock of the same shape and a muzzle recoil compensator.

Had it not been for the Armalite AR-10 the AR-15 would not have existed and Colt would never have gotten the contract for the U.S. military rifle adopted as the M-16 and from that evolving into todays military and civilian M4 type platform would not exist. Had the AR-15 not existed its likely the military and commercial markets would be seeing use of an Armalite developed and marketed design in the AR-10 lineage through the Armalite AR-18 and AR-15 platform and Colt would probably not be in business today. From 1994 to present, Armalite has produced an 'M4' platform available, marketed, and sold to civilian, government/military, and law enforcement markets except they call their series the M-15.

All original AR-180's are collectors items. Among those prized as collectors items are those AR-180s produced by Howa between October 1970 and 1973. Its the fact that most of those Howa produced AR-180s during that period never made it to their intended market which makes them a rare and prized find. The Irish Republican Army illegally acquired a number of those Howa produced AR-180s, estimates place the number at around 70% (up to possibly 75%) of the Howa production during that time period. The IRA loved the AR-18 and had dubbed it the 'Widow Maker' but AR-18 production was very limited by Howa and the ones produced were mostly on an as needed basis to fill orders from recognized government entities and thus very few went to the open market so it was difficult for the IRA to get enough AR-18s and they turned their attention to the AR-180. The IRA knew the AR-180 was the AR-18 in a semi-auto only version and with very little effort they could add auto-fire capability to the Howa AR-180 in about 15 minutes and thus have the AR-18 they favored. The IRA actions caused the Japanese government to stop all exports of AR-18 and AR-180 rifles in 1973 (but later resumed export of the AR-180 until 1974). So if you come upon an original AR-180 its a collectors item, and if you come upon a Howa produced AR-180 manufactured between October 1970 and 1973 its a prize and its a good chance its either one of the few from that period which did make it to market which makes it very rare or one of the ones the IRA had gotten their hands on which later found its way into the second and third party sales markets and is even more rare.

Notes for the above time periods: In 1967 production of the AR-18 began at the Howa Machinery Company of Nagoya, Japan. For political reasons the Japanese government restricted rifle sales to only non-combatant non-Asian nations and during the Vietnam War the AR-18 could not be exported to the United States. Howa also produced AR-180s. In mid-1968 ArmaLite set up pilot production in its Costa Mesa plant and produced 1,171 AR-18s and 4,018 AR-180s between July 1969 and June 1972. The Japanese government subsequently eased export restrictions and allowed the Howa AR-180 to be exported to the U.S. and by the late 1970s U.S. production halted. The Japanese restrictions on export of the AR-18 and AR 180 forced ArmaLite to move production to a new licensed producer, Sterling Armament Company of Dagenham, England, in 1974.

ArmaLite imported the Sterling rifles into the U.S., Sterling and ArmaLite both tried to market the rifles internationally. Sterling manufactured 12,362 AR-180s between the 1975 and 1983 (when ArmaLite and Sterling were both sold). Of the Sterling AR-180s, 10,946 were exported to the United States. There were only 1,171 AR-18s and 4,018 AR-180s produced in the U.S. at Costa Mesa, all others are Sterling or Howa produced. Howa produced 3,927 AR-180s between October 1970 and February 1974 and allowing for the IRA illegally procured AR-180s this leaves only approximately 1,178 Howa produced AR-180s exported, the exact number exported to the U.S. is not known, however, estimates place the number at approximately 900 Howa AR-180s exported to the U.S.

For import/export considerations: Considering the possibility all of the Costa Mesa AR-180s were not exported but were sold in the U.S., and considering the possibility that all Sterling produced AR-180s imported into the U.S. remained in and were sold in the U.S., and considering the possibility that all (estimated approximately) 900 exported to the U.S. Howa AR-180s remained in and were sold in the U.S. - this makes for possibly approximately 15,864 AR-180's sold in the U.S.

The exact number of AR-180's manufactured between 1963 and 1967 is unknown. However, some estimates have placed it has high as approximately 1,100 and some estimates have placed it lower at approximately 400. The exact number has possibly been lost to history as Armalite changed ownership multiple times.

Note: Stoner 63 platform rifle, carbine, commando, and light machine gun varient configurations were adopted by the U.S. Army, U.S. Marine Corps, and U.S. Navy (one adoption) in the designations; XM22 (Stoner 63 rifle 1:12 twist barrel), XM22E1 (Stoner 63A rifle 1:12 twist barrel), XM22E2 (Stoner 63A rifle 1:9 twist barrel), XM23 (Stoner 63 carbine 1:12 twist barrel), XM23E1 (Stoner 63A carbine 1:12 twist barrel), XM23E2 (Stoner 63A carbine 1:9 twist barrel), XM207 (Stoner 63 light machine gun 1:12 twist barrel), XM207E1 (Stoner 63A light machine gun 1:12 twist barrel), XM207E2 (Stoner 63A light machine gun 1:9 twist barrel), Mk 23 Mod 0 (U.S. Navy, their only adoption of the Stoner 63 platform - Stoner 63A1 commando configuration 1:12 twist barrel)

Refresh my memory-
Was it the 180 that was prone to break hammers?

I had a lot of rifles in the late 90's. Most of the evil ones went through my hands at some time. As I recall, it was a 180 that snapped a hammer in two just after I got it.....

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

In some depending on who produced the 180. There was a very rare factory parts kit that was not marketed or sold commercially that had an improved hammer included and you could get an improved hammer from Armalite at one point many years ago which is even more rare.

Foxtrot...not to worry, collectibles I do not abuse, but I generally dont buy them either. The couple that I have get treated with serious respect.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Guns is for shootin not lookin at.

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James

Pictures of my Howa w/original Armalite Scope & Mount:







Clean enough to eat out of:

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Dave

Very nice

Is that the complete serial number in the pic? Looks like there is a hint of another digit after it or is that an optical artifact of some sort? If there is another number behind that 3 for a total of five numerical digits then yours was manufactured in February 1974 (according the the info I have been able to get, see serial number list below).

This is all the information I have pertaining to serial numbers for AR-180's - got it from a friend yesterday after a PM I got asking for serial number information.

Costa Mesa AR-180 serial numbers (all manufacturered in July 1969):

S0001 thru S0012
S0014 thru S0050 (except S0030 which was manufactured out of sequence)
S0030
S0077
S0101 thru S4067

Total Costa Mesa AR-180's produced = 4,018

Howa AR-180 serial numbers:

X000001 thru X000012 - manufactured October 1970
S000001 thru S001000 - manufactured October 1970
S10001 thru S12915 - manufactured February 1974

Total Howa AR-180s produced = 3,927

The first 1000 Howa AR-180's produced were really AR-18 uppers and had the serial numbers on the upper receiver hand stamped to add a zero behind the AR-18' to make it read 'AR-180'. The added zero on some of them is not properly aligned with the 18 so its easy to tell.


Sterling AR-180 serial numbers:

S15001 thru S27363 - all manufactured from 1979 to 1985

Total Sterling AR-180s produced = 12,363


******************************************

The above serial numbers do not include variations, special production runs, development, prototypes, or the undocumented production runs, and the serial number list is not complete.

There are also four different variations on the AR-180, some claim there are a few more, don't know the serial numbers for these and they are not included in the above. The variations are the AR-180 SCS (Phil Hart sporter) with a serial number prefix of PH (there were approximately 380 of these produced) - AR-180 Police Carbine (short barreled rifle) with a serial number prefix of SS (estimates are approximately 200 of these produced but its never been confirmed) - AR-180 Sniper with serial number prefix of SW (some estimates say 100 of these were produced but its never been confirmed, its more likely that only 1 was ever made) - AR-180 SP (pistol) with a serial number prefix of SP (some estimates say approximately 20 of these were made but its never been confirmed)

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting.

I have a scope mount that is like the one in the pictures, but it accepts regular rifle scopes.

Actually the serial number is "S 0003xx" which I think puts it in the October of 1970 Group below.



My gun has the characteristics you describe above. Serial number on the upper. The "S" in the serial number was done to a different depth and not centered with the rest of the serial number. The "0" in 180 was stamped lighter and not spaced the same as the rest. Both are ever so slightly crooked. Also you can see where the word was ground off at the center position of selector switch and the final position ground smooth and re-labeled "Fire".

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Dave

Kinda thought there was something after the 3.

Yep, you are correct. Couldn't tell from the pic at first but going back and looking more closely at it now I see where it was ground off. Thats an AR-18 upper.

Looks like you got one of the first 1000 produced by Howa. Thats a genuine piece of firearms history. Congratulations

Not really sure, but would probably sell for around $3,500.00 to $4,000.00 today in the collectors market or maybe at auction in some cases. Have you had it apraised for value?

If it were mine, i'd never fire it again. I'd pack it away carefully in a proper container (or maybe enclosed display case all its own) and i'd also make sure its insured.

Something I have never quite figured out. The 1000 AR-18 uppers used in October 1970 to build the first Howa AR-180s, were they left over from the AR-18s produced in 1967 and not allowed to be exported? If not where did they come from? It would seem like they must have been produced (the uppers) prior to October of 1970.

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Dave

Heard something like that before. I've heard two different versions of answers, from what I understand, and i'm not clear on the exact timing;

Version 1: Howa had planned to start producing a run of the AR-18 in 1969 and had made the uppers but never finished assembly of the final AR-18 for some reason using those uppers. They had them on hand when the first orders for AR-180s started coming in and used the A-18 uppers on hand to satisfy the order.

Version 2: Howa had planned to start producing a run of the AR-18 in 1969 but had completly tooled up for AR-18's only, then later to do the AR-180 as well. When the orders started arriving for the AR-180 earlier than anticipated they weren't set up to stamp the uppers properly so they used AR-18 uppers and hand worked them to fill the AR-180 orders.

Both of those are pretty similar, each points to a plan by Howa to do a run of AR-18's in 1969 but I don't think thats correct so I don't put too much faith in those answers.

So, i'm not really sure. I have my thoughts but nothing firm and just hints of things here and there over time. However, they must have done one of two things - either they were not tooled to stamp the uppers properly and manufactured them as AR-18 uppers and then hand worked them, or, the AR-18 uppers were already on hand some way or another and they hand worked those. I know there was something that I read once that said they wern't completly tooled up for the AR-180 when they first started getting orders and there was some delay in getting them out and I know they were making AR-18s at the same time as AR-180s. So i'm thinking they made AR-18 uppers, or used uppers already on hand from previous AR-18 production, to fill the AR-180 orders and simply did not have the capability to properly mechanically stamp the uppers as AR-180 when the first batch came off the line so they just used AR-18 uppers (which is the same upper except for the auto fire postion) and hand worked them to fill the production order.

So these rifles are completely stamped steel like the AK47? They look cool and the production costs must have been economical. They should have kept making them. They look way less complicated than the AR10 and 15 series of rifles.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Dave,
Does your Armalite Scope have the thick post coming down from the top? I once had a Costa Mesa with orginal scope that was like that. I always loved the AR-180 but sold mine off because of the lack of spare parts and mags. I did modify some M16 20 round mags to work, I think what is did was pull the guts and inserted a piece of flat bar held in a vise and used a hammer to flatten out the bump on the left side. Then cut a slot with a dremel. They worked and a lot cheaper than orginial mags, I still have a few of these along with a 30 and 40 round Sterling mag. Here is a little Stoner trivia, the first 5.56 weapon he ever designed was the Stoner 63 weapon system, the M16 was adapted from the AR-10 by someone else with Stoner input. Also the AR-18 was proceeded by the AR-16 a 7.62 x 51 rifle which also had someone else adapt to 5.56 with Stoner input.

As I look at my gun, I have to wonder..aren't both the upper and lower from an AR-18? Why else would they need to change the words for the selector switch? That is on the lower and was clearly a three position switch at one point.

Mack: My scope has standard crosshairs. I also need the leather caps for my scope.

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Dave

From my understanding the lower externals varied, sometimes they were AR-18 lower externals with what you have and sometimes AR-180 without that appearing. I think most of the ones from Howa during that period were like what you have. I guess its possible also they simply pulled some already completed AR-18s off the line and re-worked them into AR-180s. Mine doesn't have all that on the lower like yours.

There were some from Costa Mesa done the same way as yours with first production. Not sure about the Sterling.

Other than that, I don't know. I guess its just one of those things lost to the past.

It wasn't like the AR platforms we have today where a lower is made with semi-auto use in mind. Back then with the AR-18/180 the same lower internals were used for both. In terms of todays AR platform, The AR-180 is probably as close as any civilian legal weapon straight from the factory has come to being a military weapon with auto fire. With the exception of a few minutes of modification to remove auto-fire selection the AR-180 was an AR-18, restore the part in a few minutes and you have an AR-18 - thats what made the Howa AR-180 attractive to the IRA.

I have never fired an AR180 but I did get to shoot an AR18 a few years
ago. Just a mag or two of crummy steel-cased Russian ammo but the gun
fired it without a hitch.
Fun to add another full auto to my list.

I also have an AR 180 by Howa with the Armalite 2.75x scope and quick disconnect base. It looks like the setup on 45Wheelgun's rifle. And, yes, Mack, my scope has the thick post coming down from the top. I've often wondered about that and if it was a defect, mistake, upside down???
What do ya'll know about it.
I picked my AR180 up at an auction about a year ago and still haven't taken it out...but I think I'm going to soon.
Also, is the charging handle/bolt supposed to lock in back position? Mine does not.
Steve

Thanks Foxtrot for the additional info. My Howa made 180 does have the "0" handstamped. It lines up OK but you can tell it was done separately from the "18". Its deeper and not as clean. My serial is is S0007xx; also, 1970.
This is a good thread--didn't expect it on a S&W forum.
Steve
I just finished reading all of your posts, Foxtrot, on the AR180. My rifle is exactly like 45Wheelgun's pertaining to the evidence of conversion. If its worth that kind of money, I probably won't be shooting it. Thanks.

That brought back some memories. The Arlington, TX police department used the AR180 for their first Tactical Unit back in the late 70's. I lugged one around during some training exercises, but never got to shoot one as I wasn't selected for the team.

At whatever range the scope is dialed in for, on a human target, just set the point of the upside down post on top of the head and pull the trigger. The desired result will be achieved!

This type of reticle was originally used in the AR15/M16 scope, which for all intents and purposes is the same scope on a different mount. I have the same setup, but I believe I have the dual X crosshairs, but I haven't looked at it in a long time. Back in the day, I used to dust C cell batteries with mine using the peep sights at 75 yards. The little scope's okay, but it's only 2.75 power. Good for close range though.

Regarding the original Armalite scope used with the AR-180 - there were three versions of the earliest model of the scope. The adjustment was a BDC adjustment. The most earliest had an inverted post reticle and adjustment marked in meters - the next version had an inverted post reticle and adjustment marked in yards - the third version had a duplex reticle with crosshairs. The scopes were 2.75 x 20mm.

Not my picture, but shows the above information (don't have a picture for the third version):

In a word, YES. If you are using original AR18/180 mags. There may be a problem with converted AR15/M16 mags. There is a ledge on the rear of the follower that is supposed to activate the bolt hold open device. Sometimes when people convert AR mags they don't get that part of the conversion right.

I'm surprised Jaymoore hasn't weighed in on this thread as he has an AR180 (I believe a Sterling) that he converted to use M16 mags. Maybe he hasn't seen this thread yet. I'm sure he'd be glad to post some pics..........

AR-15 mag conversion for use with the AR-180

I have the second type Armalite scope with the inverted post, 2.75 x 20mm, adjustments in yards.
My magazine is stamped on the base -- AR-18
Armalite, Inc.
But the bolt does not lock in open. Could it be an internal problem.
I appreciate all the info. All this time I thought the scope was defective!
Steve

Thanks for posting that sketch. I was going to make up few extra ar15 mags for my AR180 the slot and mag stop mods are a gimmie but I didn't notice the difference in the follower.

My leather caps are in great shape. Excellent quality leather but the elastic between the caps is getting rotten(the rubber strips in the elastic)with age and I will have to replace the elastic some time soon...so if you find a pair of caps with bad looking elastic you better buy them you may never find a excellent pair.