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Old 11-28-2012, 09:44 AM
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Default 20" melonite barrel S&W ?

Does S&W make any model AR rifle with a 20" melonite barrel ?
I have a desire for a 20" barrel and have looked at Colt and Windham Weaponry. I have friend that have Colt's which do not have the accuracy so I ruled out a Colt. I have friends that have the Windham Varmint Extreme and they shoot one hole groups at 100 yds. SO if I cannot get a melonite barrel in 20" I am going to buy the Windham.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:21 AM
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Are you talking about the Windham Weaponry VEX-SS Varmint Exterminator in .223 Remington chamber?

One hole groups are no big deal, the first round from any rifle is a one hole group - its the second round that spoils your record

Last edited by Foxtrot; 11-28-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
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The Windham has a .223 chamber, is it a Wylde or standard .223. That would be a deal breaker if it is the standard .223 because all of my handloads are for a 5.56 chamber and I would hate to over pressure my rifle.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:14 PM
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Grover and Foxtrot this is the email I got from Windham about the chamber on the varmint exterminator.

Hi Robert,
The chambers on the stainless varmint guns have what is called a 5.56 Compass Lake chamber with a bolt matched to the chamber for match grade headspace. The leade in this chamber is somewhere between .223 and 5.56 NATO. Not as tight as .223 but a bit tighter than the NATO spec.
These are also marked .223 rather than 5.56. We do this primarily because the chamber is a little tighter and better suited to match grade .223 ammo. While the chamber is tighter than 5.56 in the VEX, the leade is still longer than .223 Remington. We have tested these rifles with 5.56 ammo as well and they are perfectly safe with that ammo too.

Cheryl Eliason
Customer Service Manager
Office: 207-893-2223

Also the Windham has a life time warrante that is transferable to a new owner if you sell it.
If you go to compass lake engineering you will see they offer the compass lake chamber in kreiger and douglas barrels, which are both supposed to be top of the line barrels. The compass lake chamber is nothing new and was not created by Windham but by compass lake which is a barrel specialist. They also sell uppers and lowers, complete rifles, triggers and other accessories.
My hand loads are all 223 in LC brass, I have never seen any 5.56 hand loading data until the new Hornady book came out recently. There are no available dies for resizing 5.56 brass, 5.56 brass that is resized is done in a 223 sizing die. Thus the only difference is the thickness of the brass case. Even the Colt's and other rifles are chambered for shooting both 5.56 and 223 ammo.

Last edited by rebs081; 11-28-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:17 PM
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Rebs...wow changed my mind in a hurry...LOL I like match grade!!!
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs081 View Post
Grover and Foxtrot this is the email I got from Windham about the chamber on the varmint exterminator. Also the Windham has a life time warrante that is transferable to a new owner if you sell it.

Hi Robert,
The chambers on the stainless varmint guns have what is called a 5.56 Compass Lake chamber with a bolt matched to the chamber for match grade headspace. The leade in this chamber is somewhere between .223 and 5.56 NATO. Not as tight as .223 but a bit tighter than the NATO spec.
These are also marked .223 rather than 5.56. We do this primarily because the chamber is a little tighter and better suited to match grade .223 ammo. While the chamber is tighter than 5.56 in the VEX, the leade is still longer than .223 Remington. We have tested these rifles with 5.56 ammo as well and they are perfectly safe with that ammo too.

Cheryl Eliason
Customer Service Manager
Office: 207-893-2223

They should indicate this on their web site because the normal convention is that just listing caliber as .223 means a SAAMI .223 chamber and 5.56/.223 or just 5.56 means a 5.56 chamber. The 5.56 Compass Lake chamber is not a .223 chamber, its a 5.56 chamber that is technically almost a hybrid type of chamber. The caliber should have been listed as 5.56/.223 on the web site. We have two custom supressed SPR's that use the 5.56 compass lake chamber and matched bolts, its a good performer and I think you will be happy with it.

Now, back to your original question in your first post; You are comparing apples to oranges in a way - the varmint exterminator is a varmint rifle with match grade attributes. The S&W M&P15 series are not billed as match grade.

Last edited by Foxtrot; 11-28-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:21 PM
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Foxtrot I guess I was just figuring how accurate the sport is with its melonite barrel and a 20" melonite barrel would also be just as accurate as the sport maybe a little better.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:17 PM
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Melonite is just a trade name for a finishing process that involves salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing, the other trade name for it is Tenifer (like used in Glocks and other weapons). The only difference between them really is the name because both end up doing the same thing with the same basic attributes.

The real Tenifer process its self can't be used in the U.S. as the EPA doesn't allow it because in the Tennifer process cyanide salt is used, but parts finished with Tenifer can be used in the U.S. (for example, Glocks sold with Tenifer finishes). The Tenifer process could be used in the U.S. if the cyanide salt was replaced with a different chemical, and some companies have done so (Glock did in their Georgia manufacturing) and its not really the true Tenifer finish but just as tough and close enough to be legally called Tenifer.

Melonite is used on the S&W Sport. S&W chose Melonite for several reasons, two main reasons which are its main attributes are durability and it can be used on both 4140 steel and 416 stainless steel. However, on 416 stainless the process removes some of the material attributes which ultimately allows for rust and/or corrosion. Accuracy is not a selection factor for Melonite, its got nothing to do with accuracy really.

Last edited by Foxtrot; 11-29-2012 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:22 PM
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Foxtrot. from the engineering specs I have read the treatment has better wear and corrosion resistance even than Stainless. I have also read that stainless doesnt accept the treatment as well as regular chome-moly or just plain steel. And that is the reason you dont find melonite or tenifer treated Stainless Steel. You did nail the difference between tenifer and melonite. The salt used in the melonite process is not as hazardous to work around or to dispose of. But the outer layer of the stainless base material is not near as accepting the process.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:48 PM
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I am assuming that what I have read about chrome lining barrels detracts from accuracy to a degree. I am also assuming that the melonite along with the R5 rifling is what gives the sport its great accuracy am I right ?
Which would you say is the more important factor in the sports accuracy, the melonite or the R5 rifling ?
I am thinking its the combination of both. I also see where other gum builders are starting to use melonite.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:02 PM
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Grover;

Well, thats true to some extent. It doesn't actually have better wear than stainless, it has better wear in terms of longevity as a protectant but not as a stand alone substance like the stainless would be. In other words when its worn away finally in the somewhat far future, compared to an untreated barrel you will probably get the same basic service for wear from the untreated stainless steel but for a shorter period of time. Its a sacrificial coating, it just happens to have a long life span.

Last edited by Foxtrot; 11-28-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs081 View Post
I am assuming that what I have read about chrome lining barrels detracts from accuracy to a degree. I am also assuming that the melonite along with the R5 rifling is what gives the sport its great accuracy am I right ?
Which would you say is the more important factor in the sports accuracy, the melonite or the R5 rifling ?
I am thinking its the combination of both. I also see where other gum builders are starting to use melonite.
We believe that there are a number of factors that contribute to the accuracy of our Sport 095. Similar good accuracy from Remington 700's with 5R rifling lead us to conclude that the 5R rifling helps. With respect to the melonite, we have seen no evidence that melonite makes a barrel any more accurate than a chrome moly vanadium or a stainless steel barrel. What we are seeing is a trend that, if it continues, will establish that melonite treated barrels can be more accurate than chrome lined barrels of similar quality. We also believe that the trends are pointing to melonite contributing to how long a quality barrel will be able to maintain a high level of accuracy. Accuracy also benefits from Sport 095 having one of the best stock single stage trigger I have ever seen on an AR style rifle. Once broken in, the trigger breaks at an average of 6.0 pounds with an extreme spread of break weight of .4 pounds in our most recent trigger pull eval. 3/64 inch of creep before break and 6/64 of overtravel have been noted. The next equipment element of a highly accurate rifle is a good scope. Sport 095 is outfitted with a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x 50 in Burris heavy duty rings. All told, several things have to come together to make a rifle shoot really well. The next element that we hope to move forward on will be developing an accuracy load. It will be interesting to see what 095 can do with tuned ammo.

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Old 11-28-2012, 06:10 PM
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I agree with Matthew, I do believe the best part of the accuracy of the Sport is the 5R rifling, I also believe that the Melonite coating is a contributing factor because of the fact that there seems to be an issue with the chome lining being consistent all the way down the barrel. After my last shooting episode I proved to myself that trigger control is a very important part of accuracy. If you cannot pull the trigger without pulling the rifle off of the target you cannot shoot accurately. I have had a tremendous amount of training but sometimes I really have to go back to the basics to get consistent accurate groups. It is also easier when Pdog hunting than when shooting at a target.
Matthew you will be blown away with tuned ammo!
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by oneyeopn View Post
I agree with Matthew, I do believe the best part of the accuracy of the Sport is the 5R rifling, I also believe that the Melonite coating is a contributing factor because of the fact that there seems to be an issue with the chome lining being consistent all the way down the barrel. After my last shooting episode I proved to myself that trigger control is a very important part of accuracy. If you cannot pull the trigger without pulling the rifle off of the target you cannot shoot accurately. I have had a tremendous amount of training but sometimes I really have to go back to the basics to get consistent accurate groups. It is also easier when Pdog hunting than when shooting at a target.
Matthew you will be blown away with tuned ammo!
It's all in connecting the dots in the right order and being consistant.Reloads are a tremendous help.

It also helps with some of the new add ons like a handgrips that fit your hand better so your trigger finger reaches the trigger at the same point each time naturally. Not too long,not too short. Stocks "almost" made to order for a good cheek fit. Front handguard of choice. Bipods are a tremdous help.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
We believe that there are a number of factors that contribute to the accuracy of our Sport 095. Similar good accuracy from Remington 700's with 5R rifling lead us to conclude that the 5R rifling helps. With respect to the melonite, we have seen no evidence that melonite makes a barrel any more accurate than a chrome moly vanadium or a stainless steel barrel. What we are seeing is a trend that, if it continues, will establish that melonite treated barrels can be more accurate than chrome lined barrels of similar quality. We also believe that the trends are pointing to melonite contributing to how long a quality barrel will be able to maintain a high level of accuracy. Accuracy also benefits from Sport 095 having one of the best stock single stage trigger I have ever seen on an AR style rifle. Once broken in, the trigger breaks at an average of 6.0 pounds with an extreme spread of break weight of .4 pounds in our most recent trigger pull eval. 3/64 inch of creep before break and 6/64 of overtravel have been noted. The next equipment element of a highly accurate rifle is a good scope. Sport 095 is outfitted with a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x 50 in Burris heavy duty rings. All told, several things have to come together to make a rifle shoot really well. The next element that we hope to move forward on will be developing an accuracy load. It will be interesting to see what 095 can do with tuned ammo.

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My Sport has considerably more creep that what you specify, is there anything I can do other than returning the gun to the factory ?
Bob
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:42 PM
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It's all in connecting the dots in the right order and being consistant.Reloads are a tremendous help.

It also helps with some of the new add ons like a handgrips that fit your hand better so your trigger finger reaches the trigger at the same point each time naturally. Not too long,not too short. Stocks "almost" made to order for a good cheek fit. Front handguard of choice. Bipods are a tremdous help.
Longarm fit is an element of the art of shooting which has been for too long neglected by riflemen. One of the recent areas of great improvements in riflery has been getting back to fitting the rifle to the rifleman. Proper cheek fit, length of pull, and trigger geometry make focus on the fundamentals much easier.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:57 PM
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I think oneyeopn and rebs have proven what dialed ammo can do and have the targets to prove it...truely amazing what the little sport can do.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:02 PM
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Matthew
My Sport has considerably more creep that what you specify, is there anything I can do other than returning the gun to the factory ?
Bob
095 had more creep and a heavier pull when it was new. Getting it broken in has really settled it in nicely. It has 2400 rrounds through it, plus 900-1200 dry fire reps. We put a ALG ACT trigger with a yellow JP trigger spring and a red JP hammer spring on another one of our AR's(Bushmaster XM-15 HBar). For $75 we got a crisp trigger that breaks at a little over 4.5 pounds. Creep on the ACT is about 1/16 of an inch and overtravel is about 3/32. It had about 700 reps on it when I last measured it.

I believe that having substantially similar triggers on one's rifles so that your brain and trigger finger get accustomed to performing the same act over and over is more conducive to good rifle shooting than having a $300 dead solid perfect trigger on one rifle and stock triggers on the rest. I think that "trigger pull confusion", for lack of a better term, causes quite a bit of the mediocre marksmanship that we see.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:59 AM
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I believe that to get good accuracy, you must have a good barrel that is capable of good accuracy, a smooth trigger helps alot, dialed ammo and last but not least...good shooting skills if your looking for one ragged hole. At my age...a good scope is a must have because you can only shoot as good as you can see. I see a big difference between bulk ammo and ammo that is dialed in for the rifle you are shooting, most of the ammo is satisfactory for hunting...but if you are really into tight groups...you have to have all of these factors in play and each one makes a difference.
John
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:53 PM
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My new Thompson Icon doesnt have a melonite barrel but it does have 5R rifling and the accuracy is phenomenal so I have to give more credit to the 5R rifling. I am shooting the Thompson and a Winchester both with the same length barrels, both with the same twist rate but the accuracy of the 5R barrel is way better than the other. Neither rifle shows any wear to the bore so I am attributing the extra accuracy to the 5R.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Longarm fit is an element of the art of shooting which has been for too long neglected by riflemen. One of the recent areas of great improvements in riflery has been getting back to fitting the rifle to the rifleman. Proper cheek fit, length of pull, and trigger geometry make focus on the fundamentals much easier.
Now you are talking "old school" weapons and how I was brought up. My Grandfather would custom fit/cut butt stocks to fit as I grew up. I was also "given" weapons that "fit" my size and age. When I got older he hands on taught me how to fine tune a trigger and other handy little tricks. Did I mention he was a Sniper in WW I ??? I was taught by the Master of Master's. I just hope it doesn't become a lost art...
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