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Old 01-13-2013, 07:56 PM
trammd trammd is offline
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Hello, this is my first post. Lots of great info here!
I recently purchased a M&P15 MOE, great gun. Upon firing it for the first time (after cleaning and oiling the gun)

I was noticing after the first 2-30 round mags I would get a failure to fire. Gun cycled fine, just NO Bang. upon cycling the charging handle the spent cartridge was inspected (55 grain PMC FMJ) and had what appeared to be a light primer strike.(see pic) At first these failure to fires ocurred about every 3-4 rounds after the first to magazines were fine. Then the gun would not fire ANY rounds chambered by the gas operating action of the gun.

I could MANUALLY chamber a round by pulling the charging handle and releasing and the gun would fire ONCE, But the follow up shot will fail to fire every time now with the lightly struck primers. I did make sure the gun was cleaned and lubed, pulled the BCG and sprayed down with Ballistol then reinstalled but same result. The manually chambered round fired fine but any following shots chambered by the rifle gas/buffer system resulted in a click, No Bang. Light Strikes.

Any Ideas as to what is happening? The gun is stock. I came home today and disassembeled the gun and BCG looking for issues but everything seems OK. Firing pin and trigger group work smoothly with No apparent issues. Once again this was ALL PMC 55 grain on a NEW never previously fired gun and the first 2 30 round mags fired with zero issues. It was the second 2 when the trouble started and finally turned my AR into a manual bolt action rifle! Any and all help and input is appreciated!
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:35 PM
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It sounds like your gas tube is slightly plugged if I were to venture a guess. For some reason the BCG is not going far enough back to reset the trigger. I would also look at the trigger group to see if it is hanging up. And pull out the recoil buffer and spring to make sure nothing is causing it to hang up.

Check and make sure the gas rings on your bolt are not lined up but are staggered. If you have something like non-chlorinated brake cleaner with the little red spray tube, you can take it while pointing the upper down and into something to catch the run-off. Squirt it down the gas tube to make sure that it is not plugged up. If it is not plugged the cleaner should run down the inside of the barrel close to the muzzle, not outside around the gas block.
Because of the gas system size on the M&P15 series rifles, the bcg should come back with enough force to reset the trigger and hammer.
Does it eject the spent cases with some force or do they just come out. It should sling them at least 5 or 6 feet away.
I hope this helps.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:21 PM
trammd trammd is offline
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Thanks Grover! I did check the gas system with brake clean...looks good.(it runs out the barrel) I also checked the gas key for obstructions. Checked buffer and spring ....looks good. Trigger action feels good with no hang ups. I did stagger the gas rings and lubed the BCG with Ballistol. Did a function check, and everything seems to function properly. I don't understand. I cleaned everything good and I will try again tomorrow. Can I over lube the bolt and the BCG? Also it was fairly cold out when shooting today...27 degress F. could this hinder my bolt action? Oh and yes, it seems to eject spent cases fine. I do beleive the trigger is resetting because of the light strike on the primer.

Last edited by trammd; 01-13-2013 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:28 PM
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That temp (27) shouldn't bother anything. Did you change out the stock buffer or spring .
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:37 PM
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NO, I am running the stock buffer and spring. I did purchase a spikes tactical ST-T2 buffer and "Blue" Spring to try but i figured the gun should run fine with the original equipment fine first before I start changing stuff.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:43 PM
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depending on the oil, it may thicken up at lower temps. I would try it again tomorrow,
I dont believe you can over lube a BCG, I am using 5w30 mobil 1 on my rifles but when I run out of this quart I will change to a 0w30.
Just by the operation of the rifle, when it puts a bullet into the chamber and the BCG seats and locks it will leave a small dimple on the primer just from the free floating firing pin, not enough to set it off but a dimple non the less.
What brand of ammo is this? Could you have purchased some with a batch of extra hard primers? Have you tried different ammo?
I am just trying to run down the list of possible things that would cause your problem. Good luck and let us know, we all learn from helping each other.

OOOPS I just reread...55gr PMC...I havent heard of anyone having problems with it. You may try a different brand of ammo, just in case it is ammo related.

p.s.s. if there was an obstruction in the gas tube the brake clean would have washed it out.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:49 PM
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Anyway you can test that ammo in a different gun? Perhaps test another box/brand. I know there are tolerances that ammo has to meet and there are tolerances for gun chambers. It would be possible how ever unlikely that the ammo meets the upper end of the tolerance factor while gun chamber meets the lower end. Causing the spent brass to expand to much thus dragging in the chamber causing it to retard the ejection system just enough to cause the trigger to not wanna reset. Thus when you manually rack it works fine?

Given this is just a idea using the Sherlock Holmes principle ‘If you’ve eliminated all other possibilities whatever remains must be the truth,’. I use this when working on computers my self and I am completely stumped.

The dimple your showing is the same kinda dimple I seen on the ammo when I manually chamber a round.

Anyway you could give us a view of the fired case standing up? This might also help diagnosing a tight chamber.

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Old 01-13-2013, 09:53 PM
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there goes that stacking tolerances again...
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:07 PM
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Default Light Primer strikes with new MP15

Are there any odd witness marks on the bolt carrier group, upper receiver, or charging handle that would indicate binding?
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:08 PM
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well..........I just confirmed that indeed the little dimple on the primer is Not from a hammer drop but just apparently the bounce of the free floating firing pin when you cycle the action with the charghing handle. Not sure how this helps me to find the problem but at least I know now that the trigger is NOT resetting after firing a round.

Does this mean that somewhere in the gas system their is an issue? The BCG cycles beautifully manually. (NO sticking or noticable unusual friction) Trigger group looks great
(Smooth action, good springs, no contaminants etc.)
Nothing wrong with the stock buffer tube, buffer, and spring)
all gas circuits are open and in alignment.

Well tomorrow I will try some different ammo and see what HAPPENS.....
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trammd View Post
well..........I just confirmed that indeed the little dimple on the primer is Not from a hammer drop but just apparently the bounce of the free floating firing pin when you cycle the action with the charghing handle. Not sure how this helps me to find the problem but at least I know now that the trigger is NOT resetting after firing a round.

Does this mean that somewhere in the gas system their is an issue? The BCG cycles beautifully manually. (NO sticking or noticable unusual friction) Trigger group looks great
(Smooth action, good springs, no contaminants etc.)
Nothing wrong with the stock buffer tube, buffer, and spring)
all gas circuits are open and in alignment.

Well tomorrow I will try some different ammo and see what HAPPENS.....
The kind of friction I am talking about would not be noticeable thought manual cycling. Manually cycling the bolt would not cause the case to expand. The tolerances I am talking about would be thinner then a piece of paper.

Three more things come to mind
1. Could be slightly under powered ammo PMC is really good stuff but every manufacture has a off day that's just a given it could be loaded a little on the light side.

2. The next thing that comes to mind is springs. I know with my Glock the spring was so tight on it would not function properly with 115gr plinking ammo. Took 500 rounds of 124gr RWS to loosen the spring up enough to function with the 115gr stuff.

Also it could be possible the the manufacture messed up and sent Smith and Wesson the wrong springs. The springs could have been mixed up in assembly.

3. Is the bolt completely returning to battery? I know with my semi auto's there is a fail safe so if the slide is not completely in battery the gun will disable the trigger. That way you don't cause a really bad day at the range firing out of battery. Most can be just a hair out of battery and still not fire.

These are just some out side the box idea's Sounds like you pretty much checked everything else.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trammd View Post
I do beleive the trigger is resetting because of the light strike on the primer.
Trigger control for the reset is one of the initial lessons to learn when using this rifle.
Fire the rifle, and HOLD the trigger down. Then, let the trigger go. You will hear the 'click' of the trigger reset.
More important than most people would ever imagine- but it is important to learn this. (Even when fired quickly, it gives you a split second for target acquisition, and a distinct single shot every time, rather than a series of shots.)
If you are not hearing the reset, then the trigger is not being reset by the recoil well, and you need to look to the gas system/ velocity of the ammo used.
My guess is these are hard primers. One very easy way to tell- load them back in the rifle, and fire them. If they go off, then the rifle is not resetting the trigger to allow for a full strike with the firing pin. If they do not fire, then the ammo has a hard primer.
Hope this helps you. (Yes, I have had multiple hard primers. I had a lot of older Tula ammo, and it had about a 1 in 30 hard primer ratio- on 10-15 year old ammo...... you get what you pay for! In Federal xm855, I have had 2. One refired after 3 tries, the other was just rock hard. The worst ever hard primer I have had was on a hog here in central Ca; the boar was huge with massive tusks we could see from 40 yards away. He surprised us, and jumped out from the barley in front of us, and I put the crosshairs directly on his shoulder and squeezed the trigger, only to hear a sickening 'tick'....... as I racked a round, my partner made the pig take a dirt nap, and was rewarded with 330lb of beast with over 5" tusks.
Sometimes, being the faster draw, and the better shot will not help you. )
I mailed the round back to the manufacturer, with a pic of the pig and the story. They sent me a hand written note, and 2 boxes of premium 30-06. I still shoot their ammo to this day- they do make good stuff, and bad components do occasionally happen.

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Old 01-14-2013, 10:12 AM
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OK. Try taking the BCG apart. Any parts feel sticky or slow moving ? See how the firing pin is moving. Does it feel sticky,gritty or "slow" ? It should move/slide very easy on it's own. Might try using a lighter oil on those inside parts. Also might try running a pipe cleaner down the firing pin hole. Something gritty could have got in there. I wipe my firing pin down with a light coat of oil,but wipe it all off before re-assembly.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:38 AM
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First. I’m certainly no expert on AR’s. I played with M16’s in the Military and I just finished my first AR build a few months ago.

Did you give the gun a good through cleaning before taking it to the range? Most gun companies coat the carbon steel parts with a good coat of preservative oil that will keep almost any part from rusting in almost any conditions till the gun gets from the factory to your hands but this stuff does nothing for functioning and normally has to be removed for reliable functioning.

I had the same problem with my new AR when I shot it for the first time, only with handloads. It worked for a while, then it didn’t.

When diagnosing mine I noticed, with the upper off, to bolt seemed to not want to close all the way using just finger pressure.

I field striped the gun (and bolt) and gave everything a good through “inspection ready” cleaning and the bolt would then go in and out of battery easily. It’s been solid ever since.

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Old 01-14-2013, 01:51 PM
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I did clean the gun very thouroughly and lubed it before firing for the first time. Including disassembling the BCG and cleaning, stabbering gas rings, lubing and reinstalling. Bolt lock up area was clean and bolt,carrier,firing pin,and trigger group all function smoothly with no apparent binding or unusual friction.





[IMG]http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b586
/trammnd/IMG_1287_zps456d0472.jpg[/IMG]



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Old 01-14-2013, 02:29 PM
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Now that is clean and pretty....please let us know how she shoots?
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:59 PM
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It just dawned on me that your MOE is a mid-length system. It runs with a little lower gas port pressure, so maybe there is an issue with the PMC you are shooting being a little under powered. I have shot PMC Bronze through carbine and rifle length systems without issue, but I suggest trying some different ammo (5.56 specifically) until your sistem is fully broken in. I see that you have it well cleaned, so now lube the BCG liberally, too.

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Old 01-14-2013, 07:01 PM
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I think that is a very valid point about the PMC, and me breaking in a new Mid length AR. Never the less...the gun ran beautifully today!
I paid very close attention to my "trigger form" and carefully listened for the reset after each shot.
Also I did notice The PMC cases were not thrown as far as the Hornady Z-max, Rem UMC,or HPR. The PMC was actually ejected up to 2-5 feet less than the other brands!

I ran shot about 200 rounds without an issue!

Oh, and I did cycle and fire the PMC (20+ Rounds) from yesterdays malfunctions.

I did force a failure to reset once by being really sloppy on the trigger. (rapid fire and not paying attention an allowing full travel of the FCG)

I am new to the AR platform an I am learning how important good trigger control is!

So it was probably several factors causing my issue and I believe they were:

1- New Gun (needed some break in)

2-PMC ammo may have not been the best choice for initially breaking in the gun as I think it is on the low pressure end for my mid length AR.

3- MY using lazy trigger form! I now am a believer that you need to learn to allow for a proper reset with each shot!

Thanks so much for ALL of the great advice!
I hope I can return the favor to someone else (new AR owner) that may need help in the future getting through their rifles growing pains.

Thanks Again

Video Below of my gun cycling perfectly!

MVI_1294_zpse4aa929a.mp4 video by trammnd | Photobucket

Last edited by trammd; 01-14-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:21 PM
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Welcome to the forum...glad we all could help!!! It is a learning experience but I will bet you had fun!!!
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:27 PM
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trammd glad to here it ran flawless today I bet you did really have a lot of fun with it at the range.

Welcome to the forum I hadn't noticed your post count till Grover said something. Hopefully we will see you around more we have a pretty solid (maybe one of the best) AR community's here.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:16 PM
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Have to say,OUTSTANDING photos too. Welcome and great to hear your up and running.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:59 PM
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I agree with MadMax; you did a really nice job with the pics. Glad everything worked out for you, that is great to hear.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:47 AM
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Glad ya got it Dialed in Buddy..

I have shot hundreds of PMC rounds and never an issue. Now I never really did com pare those to the federal Rounds though... But never seemed under powered...
Annyways... Glad all is Good, Maybe yer Box was just a monday Run Batch


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