I wouldn't buy a combat weapon without a forward assist.

It's there for a reason. A life-saving reason.

And they do work.

If you plan on only using your AR for the range and polishing it to show your buddies, then you don't need a forward assist.

But if you ever think your AR may one day be called on to save your butt, you need a forward assist.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

You are correct, it is there for a reason...Reason being that the gov didn't follow the ammo specifications for the rifle and used a powder that burned dirty and fouled the chamber and gas tube. Once the powder was switched, that problem went away.

The original design did not have a forward assist. The requirement for the forward assist was also a hold over from the M-1 Garand and the M-14. Both of these rifles had the bolt carrier connected to the operating rod or charging handle. If it failed to chamber a round, you could smack the rod or charging handle and force the bolt into battery. The M-16 bolt is not attached to the charging handle, so the Army wanted something like they had on previous rifles. Stoner gave them the indention on the bolt, but they didn't like that.

Anyway, if you like a forward assist, then get one. I don't feel it is necessary on a civilian rifle, and to suggest that you can not protect your home and loved ones with a firearm that does not have a forward assist is simply ludicrous. Life and property have been protected with firearms that are a whole lot less than an AR-15 that does not have a forward assist.

Oh and believe me I know my Sport is not the Best out there. Not by a long shot. But what it is, a good value, quality construction, extremely accurate Sporting Rifle for people like me who would rather take it out and run it through its paces alot without worrying about how much money it cost.

Believe me if I had the money, I would have one with a monolithic upper, and I know a company that produces match barrels with the 1:8 5R rifling, melonite treated. Heck yeah I could spend a lot of money. But my Sport does the job. Only time will tell down the long road how long the melonite lasts but I like it.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Yep, I see your point and should clarify my earlier statement. When I talk competition, I am referencing 3 gun matches. Should have made that clear.

There are 3 gun competitors that use unlined, stainless, etc but chrome stands tall in its ability to keep up with the round count and heat generated in a competition rifle.

Actually, according to S&W's own website, the M&P15 Rifle and a couple of other models (ORC, etc.) have a chromed barrel, gas key & bolt. That's the model I happened to have bought because Sports Authority only had that model and the Sport and I didn't want the cheapest model. From what I've read, it seems that the melonite coating is very durable and more than adequate for our civilian semi-auto use. If we had full auto, then the chrome barrel would supposedly have an advantage. For me, it didn't matter; I'd have been happy even with the melonite barrel (for as much shooting as I do). I think that some of these things are beginning to sound like the "Ford vs. Chevy" or "Honda vs. Toyota" kind of arguments. For my uses, I don't think the accuracy difference between barrels, etc. at 400 yards matters much; my shooting distance is more like 20 yards max (home defense).

lol, your the one justifying your purchase. I'm happy with what I have, congrats on paying for for options will will probably never need or use. So some how your AR functions and preforms better then mine b/c it has a dust cover? Show me the complied data of failed ejections, fireing and loading due to no dust covers then get back to me. We can agree to disagree but I by no means need or have no reason for a dust cover or forward assist and while it can be useful in some cases how often is it "really needed" and unless I go play war games on a beach I'll probably be just fine w/ no dust cover considering lots of other weapons do not have then and function just fine and I still stand by the fact that the actual complied data shows an advantage of melonite over chrome lined.

Forward assists are also great for follow up after a weak load, dented cases, dirt or grit in the chamber, etc.

On my hand guns I can smack the slide forward. On an internal bolt you need a forward assist.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Its not useless in all cases, what these are used for most of the time I dont believe it is needed. Would I be upset if I bought an AR that did have one...Nope but for what "I" am going to use this particular gun for its not needed. I had a dented case just last week that did not properly go into the chamber. I did not need a forward assist to fix the problem.

It isn't me making claims against established standards. You are. The data is on my side of this argument. After 50 years of refinement by the US military the specs call for FA/dust cover/chromed bore. If anyone needs to produce data to back up their claims, it's you. The bottom line though, is that these deviations from spec are solely to meet a price point/profit margin. Nothing more.

The more you post, it becomes more and more obvious that you have little experience with hard use of the AR15 platform. That is OK, but don't mislead others with misinformation.

Let me clarify my position on the M&P15 Sport and other lower tier AR type rifles. They are fine for range use for folks that can't or won't pay for an upper tier rifle. They are fun to shoot, like any AR. My problem is with folks that make nonfactual claims on an open web forum where someone might be on seeking information to make a buying decision. That someone might be looking for a home defense or duty weapon and need the "real thing".

BTW, I have "used" the features you claim I overpaid for while firing tens of thousands of 556 rounds.

Please oh please let this typical AR15 minutiae pissing match thread die already.

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-John

You have the option of not posting and moving on...

I'm willing to let it go if you are.

I have used the forward assist to save my bacon and that little dust door some people think is unnecessary also. I guess my M-16 just saw more dirty, muddy, dusty action than some range-only weapons do.

I like both of those particular options because I know what they have done for me. That's all I have to say about it.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

+1 for lost lake...when those features are fallbacks when the shtf, u appreciate them more...and vmax, i will say that japes and oneeye are 2 members of this forum that i (as well as many others im sure) show great respect for their knowledge when it comes to the AR platform...perhaps u should allow their objections be noted and weighed with a certain amount of reverence before being so quickly dismissed...we have all heard your points, thank you for the input, and hope that you contribute to other threads in the future...

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part-time ninja...

Ok, so you used the forward assist and the ejection port cover on your issued rifle in Afghanistan or Iraq...but was it really the forward assist, or one of the four steps you took prior to tapping the forward assist that got you back in action?

And I understand you want it on a duty weapon in the desert, but do you really think it is required for defending your home in Wisconsin? My Sport rides uncased in the rack in the jeep or in the bed of my truck while we drive all over the deer lease in West Texas. The thing is covered in dust. Never has had an issue. I can't say it never will, but I have shot it enough in those conditions to feel confident that the firearm is reliable.

Fair enough. Having stated my case, you're right, its time to move on. Hopefully the information presented will be useful to someone. I certainly harbor no ill feelings toward anyone here. Its been an upfront, civil discussion among predominantly like-minded folks. Let's face it, we all agree on far more than we disagree. Happy shooting.

Interesting. More and more LEO's are carring M&P Modern Sporting Rifles in their cars as Duty weapons. Not to mention M&P sidearms as Duty weapons and also BUG's too. You might say cost,they say reliability and accuracy. They are also buying M&P Sporting Rifles and sidearms for personal off duty weapons.

I have shot your upper tier and the so called lower tier S&W's. My M&P Sporting Rifles will give your (so called) upper tier a run for the money with the same length barrels. I have both,enjoy both and have more than a couple of both.

Needing the "real thing" in a home defense situation would be a 12 guage shot gun,not a Modern Sporting Rifle of any "flavor". You,of all people and your "tens of thousands of rounds" should know the balistics and the devastation of 5.56 rounds flying through the air at 3200-2500fps and the range of the bullets... Your bullets would/could be flying through neighbors houses 5-600 yards away easy... You'd be wiping out hot water heaters,cats,dogs,people and more than likely,never scratch what you were shooting at in the first place. A well seasoned intruder will disarm your un-trained "hiney" and had your hat to you before you could find the safety lever...

I opened my eyes and gave BOTH a good run for the money.

As for the military. ...they are the best at dragging their feet on ANY change. Too much going on under the table.

OK, now that my head has stopped spinning, I'll make three points in reply to this (as my last comment in this thread)...

• You do know that S&W makes an upper tier AR too, right?
• You do know that 556 typically has LESS penetration in home defense/LE scenarios than many SG and pistol rounds, right?
• Do you really believe it would be easier to disarm someone with an AR than a shotgun? Really?

VMaxSplat, I asked you earlier why you thought S&W has switched to Melonite on their upper tier rifles, and you didn't answer. If you look at the VTAC II and the MOE, they are Melonite treated, not chrome lined.

V-Max. I am still waiting on empirical data that the chrome lining is better than melonite treated. I can show you that it isnt. But other than saying something about the military using it for 50yrs, That doesnt prove its better, it proves its the military. All I ask is that you prove it, I understand that you believe it is. Thats fine...where is your Data!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

True.

Your opinion is just that, your opinion. Same as mine. This thread devolved into a pissing match by those who staunchly believe they are absolutely "right". Arguing isn't going to change the opinion of someone deeply entrenched in their opinion.

All that will happen in this thread from this point on is an ever increasing level of butt-hurt and name calling. I've seen it on a certain forum dedicated to an Austrian pistol forum.

If you absolutely believe in the mil-spec gospel of the TDP, then M4C is the place to be. You'll get nothing but individuals in agreement. Then you can argue the merits of the Rockwell hardness of a hammer pivot pin in a top tier rifle or any other esoteric M16/M4 detail to your hearts content. Run quasi home brew "scientific" tests, claim to be a subject matter authority, and argue away. Be happy in the company of like minded individuals.

If you're a civilian leaning AR15 enthusiast who believes that the civilian market has the flexibility in materials & construction to exceed the minimum standards set by the military, then this is generally a good place to be. We like to try out the latest innovations the civilian AR15 market has to offer.

There are those established forum members that advocate the mil-spec TDP, with whom I do not agree, yet do so in a consistent manner that gain respect such as C4IGrant.

In the end, all that matters is that you have an AR15. If the S ever hits the F, I don't care what rollmark is on the rifle of the person standing and fighting next to me. Just as long as that person's rifle goes bang, I'm a happy camper.

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-John

Wow this thread went downhill quick. Just to add my .02, I didn't have a bias either way when it cane to melonite vs chrome as I'm fairly new to the sport of shooting. But as an outside perspective here trying to learn, I followed links provided here and did some digging on the web on my own and now have decided that I made the right choice with my melonite barrel. There is, in fact, third parties that have nothing to do with firearms that have proved there are far more advantages of melonite vs chrome. Lubricity (which I didn't even know was a word until now) would be one the main benefits I see, especially when you do apply it to firearms. More research proved that accuracy was actually better with the melonite. I had no opinion either way before this, but now I do. To a newbie trying to get it all figured out, the military using it for 50+ years has argument has no real bearing. Not when data and facts come into play. My thinking on that is, most likely the reason they don't change the spec, especially on something like barrels, is that there's how many thousands, if not millions of weapons they'd have to change? Thank you everyone for input though, it's all helped in my learning more about this wonderful sport.

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-Dik

Yep. I'll take every advantage I can.

Mil-spec is what it is, it insures your AR upper works on my AR lower.

Mil-spec did make the Hummer H1 which is a whole lot more truck than a civilian Hummer H3!

The military designs equipment for getting the best product at the most reasonable price assuring it will work for x-amount of years with y-maintenance under z-conditions. It's usually pretty durable stuff.

Yes there is better available. MUCH better. I'd like to look at this Melonite coating and check it out. Sounds pretty nice, I've got nothing against it at all.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

#1 Read what I said. I have shot your upper tier and the so called lower tier S&W's. I have both,enjoy both and have more than a couple of both.

#2 Wake up. You just blew your cover on that one... "Kool-Aid" anyone ?

#3 Seasoned bad guy verses Un-seasoned civilian... In less than a heartbeat holding either weapon... It's the moment of hesitation from an un-trained,un-skilled civilian about to wet his pants in pure fear..

(as my last comment in this thread)...
BYE BYE

Dude, that is apples and oranges...but compare the HMMVW to the first gen civilian Hummer (early 90's)....

They rolled down the same assembly line, to a point. Then the civvy version was tricked out with decent interior, a little softer ride, etc... everything to make it function in the day to day environment, not the wartime environment. If you wanted to take a girl out to dinner, a movie, and maybe a cruise down by the beach, the civvy H1 gets the nod. If you wanted to throw it on a pallet and drop it out the back of a C-17, maybe not. Different versions for different "missions" and environments.

Now the H2 and H3....nothing like the old H1, only has the name.

I see the lack of a forward assist in the same manner. It isn't really necessary for a civilian rifle in my opinion, so offer a model without it. Same for the dust cover. And yes, it lowers the price point, but I wouldn't call the Sport an econo, cheap, or junk rifle. It has a good barrel and is running the same BCG as the rest of the M&P line.

The melonite barrel could possibly be an improvement over chrome, some testing has shown that it is. But the military will be slow to adapt and we all know this. Look how long this rifle has been in use, with modifications being made overtime.

The good thing is that there is a rifle out there for all of us.

That too. And if you watch people with the dust covers,I've noticed many of them are open 80-90% of the time anyway. I've yet to see anyone use their FA on the range or hunting.. I didn't buy the M&P T because it had a FA & DC,I bought it cause I liked it. I didn't buy the Sport because it didn't have a FA & DC. Bought it cause I liked it too (and Grover was twisting my arm having all the fun with his). AND S&W has them listed as MODERN Sporting Rifles. I've ran them dirty & clean,hot & cold with out ANY glitches yet. That dancing pony is old enough to be in the glue factory,never new the military to be too quick on making changes when there mind is set. I never saw anything about MODERN on their lables and it must keep the FA & DC because it still needs them.

I wish people would stop calling it a coating. Melonite is not a coating but rather a treatment to the barrel steel. Chrome lined, on the other hand, is a coating and because so it can be irregular in its application.

do ak-47's and ak-74u's have dust covers and forward assists? if not then they surely seen their fair share of wars in all types of environments. why would the ar-15 be required to have these, then?

I just wonder why the 1:8 twist and 5r rifling hasn't been brought up on our "lower tier" rifles... From the reading I've done the rifling has major advantages. But than again, I am still a newbie.

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-Dik

If you look at S&W's current top of the line rifles, VTAC II and the MOE, you will find that they now have Melonite treated barrels, with 5R rifling in a 1:8 twist. The barrel is made out of 4150 instead of 4140 on the higher end rifles, but they have incorporated the same characteristics as the Sport.

I doubt S&W would have made this move had Melonite not been at least equal to hard chroming in their opinion.

I meant brought up in this discussion. Sorry, I didn't word it correctly

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-Dik

I own some AR's that are chrome lined and some that aren't. Doesn't seem to make a bit of difference. Wouldn't pay extra just to get a chrome lined barrel. A high percentage of foreign made military arms have chrome lined barrels due to the fact that they use a lot of ammo that is corrosive.

My Colt SP1 has no forward assist but all the rest do. It is one feature that I have never used. If a round fails to chamber, I want to get it out, not use the forward assist to ram it in. If I was in a combat situation where my life might depend on chambering that round I may think differently.

I'm willing to bet you would.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

It's because that AK is so loose in tolerances that it doesn't need them. One of the best and simplest weapons ever made.They run wet,dry,dirty,clean,hot,cold and in every environment on the planet. They get dirty,you just give them a bath in a dirty creek shake em off and get back at it. Our old M-1's and M-14's were almost that simple too. Our leaders at the time wanted a lighter weapon,lighter rounds (weight wise). The "16" was built with too tight of tolerances,early chambers were unchromed... Then shoved (by the early 60's wizkids) out on the military after a lot of cost & corner cutting and well before it had gone through all the proper testing it should of had before being sent into combat. It's tests were in the field durring that 10,000 day war we called a "police action".

bolt carrier is notched to allow your finger to act as forward assist with a slight nudge. does this not qualify as a forward assist?

if your finger can't forward the bolt then will a forward assist do a better job? if you even require the forward assist to chamber the round then will the next attempt even work, assuming bolt carrier group is that dirty? if its that dirty why not quickly yank out the bolt carrier and wipe it down with your shirt or something?

so many questions. just trying to justify the common saying of "if it aint got forward assist it's not a rifle."

Well I didn't say it isn't a rifle without a FA. I just said I prefer having a FA.

There's a dozen reasons to have it. And no, pushing on the serrations isn't the same as hitting the FA.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

Ever pick up a hot pan out of the oven or touch something hot ? The bolt carrier isn't notched for your finger and doesn't just nudge forward... You don't mamby-pamby the forward assist,you RAM it home like there's no tomorrow. You don't yank out a HOT BCG and wipe it off on your shirt or something...this ain't a paintball game we're/they're talking about. One is life and death COMBAT,the other is shooting on the range or hunting.

Over all. I'd need to "play" with the M-4 for about 10,000 rounds and I'd let you know if I needed the forward assist over the M-16-A1 model for combat. For hunting and range time shooting gongs,I can live with-out the forward assist and I don't hunt anything I couldn't drop with my sidearm if need be...