S&W, Ruger, Colt, which AR-15?

[louisq]

Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start? I’d like to know that my choice would be more than a weekend toy. What if we needed a REAL 5.56 to hold up?

[Univibe]

Colt, among those choices. You should be able to get a 6920 for $900 or so.

[cyphertext]

All three are major firearms manufacturers... do you honestly believe that any of the 3 will not meet your needs?

If you want the closest to the military specs, get the Colt 6920. Other than that, depends on the features you want.

I have the first generation of the M&P 15 Sport... nothing fancy and not milspec, but a fine rifle.

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by louisq

Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start? I’d like to know that my choice would be more than a weekend toy. What if we needed a REAL 5.56 to hold up?

I don't know whether there is really any real "field" difference in any of these guns, but Colt remains the original based on the Armalite design. It may cost a little more but will likely retain value better than the S&W or Ruger and will be easier to sell or trade on the used market.

I bought three Colt products when I became interested in these guns several years ago. I have no complaints. They've been trouble-free, accurate, and appear to be of very good quality. I'm sure there are others that can say the same about the S&W and Ruger copies.

[louisq]

Surprising. I expected a S&W lean. Thanks. Enough feedback for me to trust my sensibilities and go the Colt.

[Ribwizzard]

I bought the 6920 edition with the SL magpul furniture, immediately felt the difference in how fast the colt shoots. Added a gieselle Ssae trigger, holy cow. Also bought the new colt mid length upper .

[noro]

Louis,

Also depends on how much you want to spend. You can find all 3
at attractive prices depending where you look. In my case, I have
all 3 - no problems with Colt and Ruger in 1500 rounds each.

My M&P15 Sport 11 was repaired by the factory at no cost for warranty work after about 1500 rounds. The details are in another post (M&P15 sport short stroking) Do I trust it going forward? Yes, I do and the company that stands behind it. Personally, JMHO, all 3 are quality weapons. Check out all 3 and see what talks to you and what you're willing to spend on it.

[Luger9x19]

"S&W, Ruger, Colt, which AR-15?"

All of the above!

Once you get one you will want more. Why not one of each?

In all fairness, with those three choices you really can't go wrong. They are all good rifles and will fit the bill when SHTF.

[EdinDenver]

I've bought a ton of AR platform rifles over the years...I've also sold a few. Here's a few comments....

1) You want something with a 1:7 twist. A lot of cheaper consumer rifles have a 1:9 twist (including Bushmaster).

2) You want M4 feed ramps, again, something the cheaper consumer rifles skimp on.

3) You want a full auto bolt carrier group that has been high pressure tested (HPT) and mag particle inspected (MPT) with a staked gas key.

Then, you need to consider the rifles purpose/ your "mission".

Colt - some Colt rifles use large pin holes so receivers (upper and lower) are not always compatible with just about every other manufacturer out there.

If you want high end - check out what Rainier Arms sells - they don't sell junk (Noveske, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc). Their prices are a bit high, but they specialize in high end stuff (yeah, if you look around, you'll find the same rifles for less) => Rainier Arms - Pursue Your Passion

If you're looking for a workhorse type rifle, check out Bravo Company. They also have higher end stuff and their own brand is very good. I have a pinned 16 inch pencil weight barrel (they pin the flash hider to make NFA requirements around minimum length) upper with their bolt carrier group and their lower. I've shot the heck out of that rifle and it just keeps ticking. => BravoCompanyUSA.com

If you want a good consumer level rifle then as you say, Colt, Ruger, S&W, Springfield (Saint), etc.

If you are bargain hunting, check out Palmetto State Armory => Ammunition, AR15 Parts, Magazines, Bulk Ammo - Palmetto State Armory I have bought a TON of uppers and parts from them (be sure to pay attention to what you're buying especially with the points I mention above). They have basically three level of rifles - junk, middle of the road, and good to go. Here's how it works on their uppers:

CHF - these are barrels made by FN and stamped as such. It's "machine gun steel" and rated to be the most durable. I don't do mag dumps, but I own one of these in an 18" midlength gas rifle with a 1-6x 24 Trijicon and it's an awesome rifle.

Premium - Decent rifle with a few upgrades. I believe these are also FN barrels but not marked as "CHF" or "machine gun steel". I've got a few of these in various chambers - 5.56/.223, .223 Wylde (1:8 Twist), 7.62x39, and .300 Blackout.

Freedom - Budget grade. Still milspec, still decent shooters, but not as good of a quality.

PTAC - Super budget grade....similar to Delton. I've never bought a PTAC rifle or upper and can't comment.

[cyphertext]

While I agree with some of your points, there is quite a bit I don't agree...

Originally Posted by EdinDenver

I've bought a ton of AR platform rifles over the years...I've also sold a few. Here's a few comments....

1) You want something with a 1:7 twist. A lot of cheaper consumer rifles have a 1:9 twist (including Bushmaster).

Twist rate is dependent upon the type of ammo you intend to shoot. If you are going to just shoot the 55 gr FMJ stuff from the local big box store, 1:9 works fine. 1:7 is only needed for the longer, specialty projectiles that many AR owners won't shoot.

Originally Posted by EdinDenver

2) You want M4 feed ramps, again, something the cheaper consumer rifles skimp on.

Agree that you want the M4 feed ramps... just haven't seen a new production rifle without them in many years.

Originally Posted by EdinDenver

3) You want a full auto bolt carrier group that has been high pressure tested (HPT) and mag particle inspected (MPT) with a staked gas key.

Semi auto carrier works just fine in a semi auto rifle. Nothing wrong with a quality semi carrier.

Originally Posted by EdinDenver

Then, you need to consider the rifles purpose/ your "mission".

Colt - some Colt rifles use large pin holes so receivers (upper and lower) are not always compatible with just about every other manufacturer out there.

Large pin holed receivers are not current production, and haven't been for many years.

[EdinDenver]

With relation to twist rate - have you noticed the cheaper AR rifles are 1:9? Delton is a prime example. Colt "Sporters" in the 90's (even the 6920) were 1:9 when their HBAR rifles (and Delta Elite) rifles of the same vintage stayed at 1:7....and only recently did Brownell's start putting together SP-1 type clones in 1:12. If you want versatility, and want "Mil-Spec" as the OP implied, then you want a 1:7 twist rifle.

There are quite a few rifles out there without M4 Feed ramps. Aero Precision still markets stripped uppers without the feed ramps => AR15 Stripped Upper Receiver, No M4 Feedramps - Anodized Black | Aero Precision | Aero Precision

You never know what you're going to find at a gun show or consignment unless you know what to look for....and the OP was asking what to look for....

You're right, you don't need a full auto bolt carrier group but it doesn't hurt - it's heavier (so it's going to reduce cycle time), it's HPT/MPI inspected (generally), and it's going to have a staked gas key per Mil-Spec (which is what the OP was looking for).

Originally Posted by cyphertext

While I agree with some of your points, there is quite a bit I don't agree...



Twist rate is dependent upon the type of ammo you intend to shoot. If you are going to just shoot the 55 gr FMJ stuff from the local big box store, 1:9 works fine. 1:7 is only needed for the longer, specialty projectiles that many AR owners won't shoot.



Agree that you want the M4 feed ramps... just haven't seen a new production rifle without them in many years.



Semi auto carrier works just fine in a semi auto rifle. Nothing wrong with a quality semi carrier.



Large pin holed receivers are not current production, and haven't been for many years.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by EdinDenver

With relation to twist rate - have you noticed the cheaper AR rifles are 1:9? Delton is a prime example. Colt "Sporters" in the 90's (even the 6920) were 1:9 when their HBAR rifles (and Delta Elite) rifles of the same vintage stayed at 1:7....and only recently did Brownell's start putting together SP-1 type clones in 1:12. If you want versatility, and want "Mil-Spec" as the OP implied, then you want a 1:7 twist rifle.

There are quite a few rifles out there without M4 Feed ramps. Aero Precision still markets stripped uppers without the feed ramps => AR15 Stripped Upper Receiver, No M4 Feedramps - Anodized Black | Aero Precision | Aero Precision

You never know what you're going to find at a gun show or consignment unless you know what to look for....and the OP was asking what to look for....

You're right, you don't need a full auto bolt carrier group but it doesn't hurt - it's heavier (so it's going to reduce cycle time), it's HPT/MPI inspected (generally), and it's going to have a staked gas key per Mil-Spec (which is what the OP was looking for).

You can't equate quality of a barrel, or a rifle for that matter, to the twist rate. You are parroting the milspec fan boy line... tell me why you would need the 1:7 twist for versatility. If you aren't shooting tracer rounds or some long, specialty rounds the 1:9 is a good twist rate. 1:7 handles the longer projectiles better at the top of the range, where 1:12 is better for the ligher, varmint type rounds, with 1:9 being basically in the middle.

The OP isn't looking for stripped uppers... I assume that he is looking at complete, new production rifles based on what he asked about.

I don't think the OP implied "mil-spec"... he implied quality. If you have served, you know the two aren't always interchangeable. Considering that he asked about Colt, as well as S&W and Ruger, seems he is looking for value as well.

[EdinDenver]

Just because you buy a DPMS stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a DPMS rifle



Just because you buy a Ruger stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a Ruger rifle (in fact I'm waiting on a White Oak Armament upper for a Ruger lower I'm going to use for high power this summer).





The OP stated "Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start?"

My posts aren't meant to say buy a Ford over a Chevy (even if we all know Ford is better), my posts are meant to give him a start with relation to what he's looking for.

If he's happy shooting 55 grain ammo all day long, out of a piece of junk AR that's fine. If he's looking for something that an armorer might provide him, then that's what I want to steer him toward. 1:7 Twist isn't just for tracers - it's going to stabilize a Sierra Match King 69 grain bullet much better and he's even going to be able to use 77 grain pills should he decide to hunt (small) hogs or something similar.

[lrrifleman]

Back in the late '90s when I was shooting service rifle matches, I started to feel as if my M1MkII wasn't competitive with the ARs, so I started to look at the AR15A2 HBAR with the 1:7 twist. This became my service rifle for matches, and I earned my Master classification with it. I initially used 69gr SMK @ 200, 77gr SMK @300, and 80gr SMK @600. Eventually I switched to 75gr Hornady HPBTs for 200 & 300yards and 80gr SMK at 600 yards.

My next ARs were Frankenguns I put together using Bushmaster and Aero Precision lowers.

Personally, if I were to "build" another 223 AR, the slowest twist barrel I would consider would be a 1:8. It provides the bullet versatility needed out to about 800yards.

As an aside, after I had pretty much recovered from my accident injuries, I decided that I wanted an M4 style rifle, but couldn't find any already assembled that filled the bill or cost what I wanted to pay. With judicious shopping and utilizing the stock trigger parts from when I upgraded triggers on my target rifles, I was able to put together an 18" 1:8" M4 style AR for just a hair over $500. Assembling the upper and lower receiver assemblies took less than 2 hours. Just something to keep in mind.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by EdinDenver

Just because you buy a DPMS stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a DPMS rifle



Just because you buy a Ruger stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a Ruger rifle (in fact I'm waiting on a White Oak Armament upper for a Ruger lower I'm going to use for high power this summer).



The OP stated "Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start?"

My posts aren't meant to say buy a Ford over a Chevy (even if we all know Ford is better), my posts are meant to give him a start with relation to what he's looking for.

If he's happy shooting 55 grain ammo all day long, out of a piece of junk AR that's fine. If he's looking for something that an armorer might provide him, then that's what I want to steer him toward. 1:7 Twist isn't just for tracers - it's going to stabilize a Sierra Match King 69 grain bullet much better and he's even going to be able to use 77 grain pills should he decide to hunt (small) hogs or something similar.

I realize that you can swap upper and lowers... have built a couple myself. But that isn't what the OP asked about.

Again, twist does not equal quality. Just because a rilfe does not have a 1:7 twist rate does not make it junk. Many folks shoot 69 grain Match Kings with a 1:9 twist just fine. Hogs don't require 77 grain either... Barnes TSX 55 gr puts them down nicely, as do many other rounds that are less than 77 gr.

Of the 3 that the OP asked about, all 3 will meet the needs of the average civillian shooter, imagined or otherwise. Like I previously posted, if you want the closest to what our military carries today, get the Colt... but I wouldn't feel outgunned or ill prepared to find myself holding a S&W, Ruger, or one of my frankenguns.

[Hapworth]

Colt, for reasons already well-stated by others. Make certain it's the 6920 or one of its variants; the Expanse and Competition lines are Colt in name only and not on par with the 6920, 6720, etc.

[rockquarry]

Originally Posted by Hapworth

Colt, for reasons already well-stated by others. Make certain it's the 6920 or one of its variants; the Expanse and Competition lines are Colt in name only and not on par with the 6920, 6720, etc.

What has been your experience with the Expanse? How did you find it lacking?

[JJEH]

Have a Ruger AR556 and it's alright. Put some Daniel Defense parts or it, incl. a rear sight. It's pretty accurate but more of a truck gun, I wouldn't want it as a service rifle. If you want a 5.56 I'd save up for a Barrett REC7, BCM, Daniel Defense or higher end S&W.

[Rastoff]

This is fun. We haven't had a "rabbit hole" thread for some time.

I've never purchased an AR in a fully built condition. I've always pieced them together. Mostly due to expense, but also due to wanting what I want. Even so, I've been around a lot of ARs and seen almost every manufacture in operation.

When it comes to S&W, Colt and Ruger, there is no difference in quality. They are all good, reliable guns. You'll pay more for a Colt, but I don't think you're really getting a better gun. This is debatable of course.

No one here is going to Afghanistan with a gun they're buying as a civilian. Even in the most difficult and demanding training and competitions, all of these guns will perform as intended.

My vote is for the S&W. Why? Because it's probably less expensive and has the best warranty; if you have a problem, they'll fix it and shipping is free.

That's my vote, but I've found that it's more important for a buyer to get the one that speaks to them. So, which is rising to the top for you louisq? By getting that one, there is less chance of buyer's remorse. It will be the one you want to fondle and thereby, will be the one you'll become most familiar with. This will make you a better shooter.

Then buy another one.

[Eric300]

Daniel Defense, LMT, LWRCI, LaRue, Noveske, BCM, Colt, Ranier, KAC, and a few others (Sig, POF, HK, etc.) are what would be considered 100% milspec 'Professional/Operator Grade' rifles/carbines. Just about all others are 'Homeowner Grade'. They work just fine for all-around casual shooting, but are just not considered hard working 'Top Tier' like the ones mentioned. In response to your OP question.....Colt all day long over the others you are considering. All that being said, I'm a Daniel Defense guy'.

[Bullet Bob]

"I have the first generation of the M&P 15 Sport... nothing fancy and not milspec, but a fine rifle."

Was that the one without the forward assist? Man, I wish I would have bought one. By the time I found out about them (yeah, I'm a little slow) they had moved on to the Sport II with the forward assist. I sort of looked for one for a few years, but all I saw had been modified in one way or another, and that's not for me.

Now I've quit buying guns (if I tell myself that often enough maybe it will come true).

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Eric300

Daniel Defense, LMT, LWRCI, LaRue, Noveske, BCM, Colt, Ranier, KAC, and a few others (Sig, POF, HK, etc.) are what would be considered 100% milspec 'Professional/Operator Grade' rifles/carbines.

Yet, I'll bet none of them are really "mill spec" guns. That term gets thrown out a lot, but rarely is true. For example, if none of them have a BURST selection, are they really "mill spec"?

[Ackley1952]

Does this mean the term mil-spec is meaningless? I take it no improvements have been made since Eugene Stoner was a pup?

[Luger9x19]

Originally Posted by Ackley1952

Does this mean the term mil-spec is meaningless? I take it no improvements have been made since Eugene Stoner was a pup?

I wouldn't say meaningless. Mil-spec just means built to military specifications as to material, strength, durability and cost. Doesn't necessarily mean the best or most durable. Certainly something can be made better than Mil-spec.

[MCQUADE]

Colt 6920 or A4 rifle, Bravo Company (BCM), Barnes Precision, FN. All are gtg. I suggest building your own so that you have a working knowledge of the system.

[Ackley1952]

So those companies were awarded those contracts because they were the low bidder and the companies that weren’t awarded the contract probably used better materials in their offerings??

[Luger9x19]

Originally Posted by Ackley1952

So those companies were awarded those contracts because they were the low bidder and the companies that weren’t awarded the contract probably used better materials in their offerings??

I don't know all that goes into the military selecting a contractor. I am sure cost is a factor, but manufacturing capacity, ability to meet deadlines and consistency are likely a part of the equation.

Also, sometimes several vendors are chosen. Mil-spec helps to ensure that all vendors are meeting the same specification the military requires.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Bullet Bob

"I have the first generation of the M&P 15 Sport... nothing fancy and not milspec, but a fine rifle."

Was that the one without the forward assist? Man, I wish I would have bought one. By the time I found out about them (yeah, I'm a little slow) they had moved on to the Sport II with the forward assist. I sort of looked for one for a few years, but all I saw had been modified in one way or another, and that's not for me.

Now I've quit buying guns (if I tell myself that often enough maybe it will come true).

Yes sir, no forward assist, no ejection port cover, 1:8 twist 5R barrel... People bashed it left and right until enough of them got out in the wild and were put to use.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Ackley1952

Does this mean the term mil-spec is meaningless? I take it no improvements have been made since Eugene Stoner was a pup?

When describing civilian rifles, yes, it is meaningless. If it weren't, Colt would be pushing the term hard, yet they admit that the civilian rifles are not "mil-spec"... If it isn't built for Uncle Sam and doesn't go through a final inspection by a DOD inspector, it isn't "mil-spec".


Quoted from American Rifleman | The MilSpec Definition
"Colt and FN are the only two government contract holders building the M4 and M4A1, which is the latest, most “tacti-cool” version of the AR. According to Colt, who ought to know, there is no such thing as a commercial AR that is MilSpec, even if most of the parts are identical to MilSpec parts being used in Colt’s M4s and M4A1s that are delivered to the government.

Now if anyone has a vested interest in making you believe that their ARs are MilSpec, it would be Colt. After all, the M16 and M4 are built used Colt’s Technical Data Package (TDP) which is a complex combination of know-how, proprietary techniques, fixtures and proprietary information that the historic manufacturer developed over decades of production. Even FN, their competitor, is required by contract to use Colt’s TDP.

Yet Colt is the first to admit that their commercial ARs are not MilSpec! I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that you now have your second and final piece of conclusive evidence that there is no such thing as a MilSpec AR."

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

This is fun. We haven't had a "rabbit hole" thread for some time.

We haven't had much for threads in some time!

[GRT3031]

I have a Colt 6920 and a Frankengun A4 I put together with a Fulton Armory lower and a 20" Bushmaster contract overrun meant for the new Iraqi Army. I have a 2 stage RRA NM trigger in it. Iron sights off of a bag 5 rounds under an inch at 100 yards. 1/7 inch twist on both weapons. The safety on the commercial colt is manipulated too easily, wipes on and off like butter. I sent it in for repair, and their answer was to install an ambi- safety. That didn't solve the problem. Also, I zero'd the Colt using the irons and the 25M zero, then fired it at distance 100M, 200M, 250M, and 300M with 62 grain ball. The trajectories were the same as the book says. I would cherry pick a Colt, my experience is their QC is not that great. You'll find trigger pulls vary from heavy, creepy, gritty, to crisp.

I'd like a mid length with the longer sight radius. 1/7 is good for the 62 grain bullet weight, the 1/12 55 grain, the 1/9 supposed to work well with both the weights.....

Supposedly the 1/7 was developed to stabilize the longer tracer rounds, witch makes no sense considering the main round is 62 grain FMJ ball, but its the US Military, why would it make sense.

Will you mount some kind of optic on it?

I would give the FN a hard look.

Will you hunt anything with it? Pigs?

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

What has been your experience with the Expanse? How did you find it lacking?

No time on or for the Expanse -- I like and recommend firearms (and their components) that are known and proven; the 6920 is that, the Expanse is not.

[Riverboys]

I am no expert.
I own a Ruger and it does a fine job slaying the paper Zombies that frequent the areas I target shoot.
I was curious about twist rate so I checked the specs, for what its worth;

"The 1:8" twist rate stabilizes bullets from 35 to 77 grains, and the 5.56 NATO chamber allows the use of both 5.56 NATO and .223 Rem. Ammunition. M4 feed ramps provide improved operational reliability,"

I have a friend with the Smith and he likes it just fine.
As always, it may come down to price.

Let us know what you buy!

[louisq]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

.

I don't think the OP implied "mil-spec... Considering that he asked about Colt, as well as S&W and Ruger, seems he is looking for value as well.

Spot on, thanks.

[louisq]

Originally Posted by EdinDenver

Just because you buy a DPMS stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a DPMS rifle




My posts aren't meant to say buy a Ford over a Chevy (even if we all know Ford is better), my posts are meant to give him a start with relation to what he's looking for.

Thanks but unless that’s sarcasm, you lost me.

[louisq]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

This is fun. We haven't had a "rabbit hole" thread for some time.

I've never purchased an AR in a fully built condition. I've always pieced them together. Mostly due to expense, but also due to wanting what I want. Even so, I've been around a lot of ARs and seen almost every manufacture in operation.

When it comes to S&W, Colt and Ruger, there is no difference in quality. They are all good, reliable guns. You'll pay more for a Colt, but I don't think you're really getting a better gun. This is debatable of course.

No one here is going to Afghanistan with a gun they're buying as a civilian. Even in the most difficult and demanding training and competitions, all of these guns will perform as intended.

My vote is for the S&W. Why? Because it's probably less expensive and has the best warranty; if you have a problem, they'll fix it and shipping is free.

That's my vote, but I've found that it's more important for a buyer to get the one that speaks to them. So, which is rising to the top for you louisq? By getting that one, there is less chance of buyer's remorse. It will be the one you want to fondle and thereby, will be the one you'll become most familiar with. This will make you a better shooter.

Then buy another one.

S&W after hours of reading opinions. If I were convinced the Colt or adding $500 would make for a better out of the box... Seemd like starting with a finished shootable base and growing from there is wise. And yes, I’ve experienced SW support. Amazing. Given the current state of business acumen.

[louisq]

FN 15® Patrol Carbine.

How is it an improvement? I can buy what I want. I just have no experience beyond Ruger rifles and a dozen revolvers and various 9mm arms. Remember we marched with 1903 Springfield’s and our sisters bell bottoms. I can patch yer butt up in short order but no sense as a rifleman. So I’m here surrounded by experience. I’d like to build but it’d never get done. I’d like a base to grow on. But I’d like it to be reasonably battle ready.

(Original U.S. WWII Parris-Dunn Corp 1903 Mark I USN Training Rifle)

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by Ackley1952

So those companies were awarded those contracts because they were the low bidder and the companies that weren’t awarded the contract probably used better materials in their offerings??

No, this is not how the acquisition system works. People love to say that it goes to the lowest bidder, but it's far more complicated than that.

Originally Posted by louisq

Seemd like starting with a finished shootable base and growing from there is wise.

It is indeed wise. I agree that just getting a gun and learning how to shoot it is a great way to get started. This way you're sure to have something that you can have fun with at the range right away. Then, later, if you want to explore the vagaries of building an AR, you can do that too.

[amazingflapjack]

I would choose a pistol caliber carbine with a foldable light weight stock.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by louisq

FN 15® Patrol Carbine.

How is it an improvement? I can buy what I want. I just have no experience beyond Ruger rifles and a dozen revolvers and various 9mm arms. Remember we marched with 1903 Springfield’s and our sisters bell bottoms. I can patch yer butt up in short order but no sense as a rifleman. So I’m here surrounded by experience. I’d like to build but it’d never get done. I’d like a base to grow on. But I’d like it to be reasonably battle ready.

(Original U.S. WWII Parris-Dunn Corp 1903 Mark I USN Training Rifle)

I just looked up the FN and it says for LE sales only...

My advice would be to decide what features you want, and buy as close to what you want out of the box. For example, if you want one with a free float rail system, don't buy a rifle with the standard fixed front sight... buy one with the rail system out of the box. If you know that you are going to put an optic on it and never shoot iron sights, consider an optics ready model that doesn't have sights. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle about twist rates, barrel steel, etc., just know that Colt, BCM, FN will get you a rifle made comparable to what the troops carry, but for the same money, S&W, Ruger, or Springfield Armory will give you more features out of the box typically, or a basic model for considerably less.

[sgtsandman]

Originally Posted by louisq

Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start? I’d like to know that my choice would be more than a weekend toy. What if we needed a REAL 5.56 to hold up?

They are all good firearms made from good companies. Get the one with the best price and the features you want the rifle to have. Don't get into the weeds with milspec vs commercial. Just know which your rifle is built to and act accordingly if and/or when you go to buy upgrades for it.

[samnev]

I have a S&W MP15, a Ruger SR556 and a Colt 6920. I don'e see much of a difference in accuracy or reliability between the 3. As previously mentioned the Colt would hold its value better and easier to sell if you need $$$. So I'd go with a Colt 6920.

[Riverboys]

Originally Posted by amazingflapjack

I would choose a pistol caliber carbine with a foldable light weight stock.

I agree. I bought the Ruger PC carbine because of 9mm. Cheap and fun. There are many others to choose from - see above.

I shoot it more than my AR. That may be because I feel comfortable shooting the 9mm carbine in my back yard and I have to drive to shoot the AR.
My longest range is about 100 yards.

[WR Moore]

I used AR pattern rifles by whatever maker my employers were buying and used them as issued for decades in an environment several makers considered abusive. This included Colt HBAR, 6920 and S&W M&P15.

Colt has, hands down (unless they've changed), absolutely the worst warranty & warranty service in the industry (at least for rifles). My experience over the time noted above is that they do indeed have parts that break. When they break, you get to keep all the pieces, no extra charge. They're also right proud of those parts when you buy replacements.

The M&P15 ran right alongside the Colt. Any parts that broke were cheerfully replaced and certain issues didn't crop up like they did with the products of the Prancing Pony. See below for one.

No experience with the Ruger, the piston gun uses several parts that are proprietary to Ruger.

As noted above, unless you plan on shooting tracers or long, heavy match bullets, 1-9 twist works very well and actually is more accurate with bullets in the 50-62 gr weight range than 1-7. BTW, with the Colts and 1-7 twist, we experienced jacket failure at a massive rate with 55 gr expanding bullets. Bullets would come apart on the way down range. We sent exemplar rifles & ammo to the ammo company and they suggested specific ammo with thicker jackets. Colt quite naturally blamed the ammo company. YMMV.

[Eric300]

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Yet, I'll bet none of them are really "mill spec" guns. That term gets thrown out a lot, but rarely is true. For example, if none of them have a BURST selection, are they really "mill spec"?

The term 'MilSpec' Has very little, if anything at all, to do with what fire control group is in the weapon. Military Specification(s) refers to just that, not whether it's full-auto, or, burst fire.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Eric300

The term 'MilSpec' Has very little, if anything at all, to do with what fire control group is in the weapon. Military Specification(s) refers to just that, not whether it's full-auto, or, burst fire.

The point is that the M4 specifications call for the rifle to have either burst capability (M4), or full auto (M4A1). There is not a military specification for an AR-15 built for the commercial market.

[Eric300]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

The point is that the M4 specifications call for the rifle to have either burst capability (M4), or full auto (M4A1). There is not a military specification for an AR-15 built for the commercial market.

Except for maybe the bolt, bolt carrier (FA), barrel, buffer, extension tube (milspec v commercial). Sooooo……..

[just plain joe]

I have run a Noveske 10.5 CQB (hard) since 2008. I have shot out the barrel twice. It runs like a sewing machine. Their QA/QC is second-to-none.

When I was working, I had a Colt 6920 set up similar to my Noveske for the sake of redundancy. I don't have as many rounds down range with it but have run it for about eight years. No problems with it either.

When I attended carbine classes at other agencies and participated in our own agency's quals as well as that of our regional team, many of the officers/operators utilized Colts, BCM, LMT, and Daniel Defense. In law enforcement we call that a "clue".

I won't comment on other manufacturers (good or bad), as I have no experience with them. If you intend to stake your life or that of others on your rifle, consider a quality platform.

A fellow operator once asked me what I paid for the Noveske. When I told him he cringed and implied that I had overspent for my work carbine. I recall his carbine choice, which I won't mention here. After about 200 rounds of a harsh firing schedule one day, his carbine went south. I wouldn't walk across the street for one since then. Buy cheap, buy twice.

HTH.

JPJ

[Ackley1952]

Well once again nothing accomplished or conclusion made . Point is if you want a Colt you better be rounding it up now unless you’ll be happy with a used one.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Eric300

Except for maybe the bolt, bolt carrier (FA), barrel, buffer, extension tube (milspec v commercial). Sooooo……..

Nope... None of those parts go through a government inspection when put into a commercial rifle. Mil-spec defines those inspections and processes, and if it doesn't go through the government inspection process, it does not meet "mil-spec". May be buit to the same dimensions, out of the same materials, but it is not mil-spec by definition.

Ask Colt, they will tell you that their civilian rifles are not mil-spec.