Ok I am having a REALLY hard time deciding what to do. I have searched and read a ton of reviews and the more I read the more concussed I feel. I would like an ar that will be used for range time and home defense. I love the reviews and info on the sport but reading ar15.com has me thinking about a PSA build. I have also seen DPMS oracles in my price range. I am fortunate enough to live in NJ so I have ban compliance to contend with as well. I would like to stay at or below $700. I have found the sport compliant at $620 shipped. Am I missing anything going with a sport. I know everyone with forward assists never use them. Is the dust cover gonna be that big of a deal???

I figure I can get a sport and have a few $ left for accys

The Sport is a great rifle. I haven't missed the forward jammer or dust cover once. Don't over-think it. Buy the Sport and enjoy some range time.

Go with the sport. It even gets good word on ar15.com. Unless you're planning on doing lots of classes and shooting 1000s of rounds it's a great gun. Well made, lifetime warranty from S&W, etc. You'll never notice the lack of dust cover and fwd assist.

Like I said its gonna be a be a safe queen. Range time and self defense. If SHTF I have a Remington 870 to help out. . I am looking for something well built (new to ar's and I don't know if building my own really enthuses me) and fairly inexpensive. Looking to add a decent optic and have fun. I don't need a $2500 piece to use everyday.

I have 2 of them. The one is lonely; it has maybe 600 rounds thru it in a year.

The other one is a gutter whore. She has eaten around 16,000 rounds now. Hardly ever barfs one up. I will venture to say that I am STILL at less than 50 hiccups with the rifle. And, it shoots as well as it ever did, with no key-holing other than from cheap ammo occasionally. It's hunted in Texas, Az, and NM for varmints and hogs. it's gotten filthy dirty.
It has done at least 8-9 training courses, with the round counts being between 400-900 a day.

I got no complaints; none at all.

Wow - quite a testimonial!

Get the M&P. It's complete, it works great and you will have no hassles. A great rifle at a great price.

It would be between the PSA and the Sport of the 3. S&W seems to have a lot more consistency in their product and their customer services makes PSA look silly. PSA seems to always be busy and it takes a while to get in touch with them. Seemed that every week, someone had a canted front sight block. I have 2 PSA lower parts kits. One has a really nice trigger and the other has one that feels like it's been dragged across a beach and stuffed in my lower. Every S&W I've shot and heard of has a really nice trigger. Mine is the best of the mil-spec triggers I have. And yes, quality of the overall rifle is top notch.

I understand what I am missing with the sport but for my intended purpose is there any real need for the dust cover or FA. Mostly the FA is used when the weapon is dirty and in essence forces the weapon to fire which to me sounds dangerous and I am not deployed anywhere where my life depends on it. Secondly the dust cover keeping the chamber clear of foreign debris entering the chamber.

I just don't want to feel like I cheaped out on the gun after I buy it. Thanks for the help guys

Just my 2 cents. I have the MP Sport and it is a great work of engineering. It was my first AR and I certainly do not have the experience that some of the other folks have. For a newbie, it is a great gun.

Based on everything I know and that I have read unless you plan on dragging yourself through a few wars the dust cover is moot. You will not need it. And if you ever need one, use a piece of duct tape :-)

Forward Assists, Dust Covers were all added after the original design had failure issues in the jungle.
Same with the chromed barrel bore and BCG. Corrosion issues with both so they chromed them to slow down corrosion issues.
The Sport's design eliminates the FA and DC but keeps all the other improvements that have been made to the AR platform since back n da day resulting in a solid, well priced shooter w/lifetime warranty unlike S&W competition.
Buy it, shoot it and be grateful we live in a country where fine weapons such as these are legal to own and shoot.

The M&P's are solid rifles, the fit and finish are clean with good attention to detail, and appear to have quality barrels. As to dust covers, unless you plan on dragging your rifle through the back forty as a means of transport to the range, you will never need it. As soon as you pull the trigger it's open anyway. How many bolt guns do you know of with dust covers? Just food for thought. Bolt assist, unless you're a member of the " I haven't cleaned my gun for 20,000 rounds and it works just fine" club, you will never need it. In all honesty, I've found more dirt collecting in bolt assist than the rest of the gun. In a fire fight in the sand box, it may get you back in the fight. Here in America, punching holes in paper or a bad guy in your home, not needed.

I have no experience with PSA, but a build, any build is only as good as the parts and attention put into it. In my opinion, it's no place to skimp on the budget.

As to DPMS, many, many folks will tell you to walk away. I'm not one of them. Every one I've owned has worked and worked well. If you insure the gas key is staked properly, and you can fix it yourself if need be, not a big deal, I have found nothing to make me leery.

Save yourself from getting an ulcer, and just buy the Smith. If there's a problem with it, S&W will make it right. Good Luck and good shooting.

__________________
SFC, US Army, Retired

Gunny has a good point. Buy the Sport, shoot it, and them come back and tell us how awesome it is. Easy peasy.

U guys are all very helpful. I am really leaning toward the sport and having money for some accessories. I know I want a quad rail a magpul 45 degree forward hand grip. And a red dot. Any ideas on a budget redot? Or where to look for used optics and find a good deal?

My opinion:
Red dots are for quick target acquisition, not for driving tacks.

Close quarter combat, quick off hand shooting = Red dot.

Shooting 100 yds, 300 yds and want to impress your pals with your shooting ability, get a scope.

Red dot on a budget, I'd get a Vortex StrikeFire w/red, green dot. @ $160. That's whats on my 15/22 and I likey lots.

AimPoint Pro, double the cost of the StrikeFire and add a little more.

If you are gonna add a 3X magnifier behind the red dot, buy a cantilever mount for the red dot to free up rail room. With the cantilever mount for the red dot, the iron sights can remain on the weapon.

At least that was my experience.

BSA red dots have been pretty good, and run about $35 (give or take). They're not heavy duty combat sights, but for everyday casual target popping, they get the job done.

Quad rails can be had for as little or as much as you want to spend. I'm not a big fan of them because, if you put one on, you feel the need to hang stuff on them, thus turning a 4 lb weapon into a 20 lb decoration hanger. I personally like the Magpul hand guards. If all you're putting on is a fore grip and maybe a flashlight, you can put on only the rails you need and leave the rest clean. A lot more comfortable as well. If you want to free float the barrel, I really like the VLTOR CASV for the same reasons. Change to a low profile gas block, and put a mid length model on and it's clean and can lengthen your sight radius if you're using flip ups front and rear.

As for your fore grip, I'll leave you alone on that one. Suffice to say I have no use for them. Just one more thing to snag stuff on, they don't aid accuracy, and don't provide a more secure/ stable grip. But hey, a lot of folks like them, so it's a personal thing.

__________________
SFC, US Army, Retired

I'm new to ARs too. It's my understanding that the FA doesn't force the weapon to fire, it just pushes the bolt into battery, so it CAN fire.

I bought after the CT shooting and the Denver stores became overrun with $1000 guns on consignment for $2000. Ain't happening. So when I found a wall full of ARs in a Steamboat gun shop for msrp, least expensive on top, most expensive on the bottom: I picked the one at my price point. It turned out to be the Optics Ready M&P. I knew S&W's reputation, so I was comfortable buying one of their rifles. Since then I found out I made a great choice.

For a first AR, buy one complete at a price you want to pay, learn about them and then build your next one.

My first AR is not an S&W, but S&W was one of the two I boiled it down to.

It will be my second. Love what I own, and love what I see, hear and feel with the M&P (aiming to pick up a 15-22 in about a month or two).

The dustcover and fwd assist were the products of the US Army "Good Idea Fairy" back in Developmental Testing. Stoner designed the gun without, and Armalite saw no need to change until the army asked them to. Both are useless if you keep the weapon clean and properly serviced....


That said, you will not beat price /quality of the M&P. <---thats a period

I like Palmetto, they build great rifles, and if cost isnt an issue, Id go with a PSA -BUT- you don't lose anything at all with the Smith.

I wouldn't take a DPMS in that price range.

Up till last week I worked in a gun store that sold these three... over the last few years I have probably moved out about 100 each or so of these rifles in all three brands. Of the PSA and S&W I would not hesitate to take either into the woods with me. Good luck on your search!

Quality red dot at the cheapest price? Primary Arms, without a question..

You can fit a Sport with a quality USA made handguard, a Primary Arms red dot and a VFG for under 1k. How can you beat that?

__________________
Still carrying my S&W 642

This without a doubt. Primary Arms just got their Micro Dots back in stock also. I have one but I'm a fan of the 30MM. Can't beat it for $69.

I think for your stated application the sport will do just fine. You really only need a dust cover if your in a combat environment and an FA if you plan on LONG (and I mean LONG) stretches of fire without cleaning the BCG.

In your shoes I'd get the S&W Sport and a Primary Arms optic. You'll end up with a solid setup at a really good price.

Contrary to what you may have read above the forward assist has more uses than just jamming a round into a dirty chamber. In your home defense situation, it can be used to silently charge the rifle. You usually pull the charging handle and let it slam forward to chamber your first round. However if you don't want to give away your position then you pull the charging handle and bring it forward slowly till it stops. Then you give a push on the FA to compleatly bring it into battery.

Now that being said is it worth the extra money? That is up to you, but please don't think that the FA is only for jamming rounds in a dirty chamber.

I have a M&P Sport and it has always been flawless.
It has eaten everything I have got my hands on.
Fit & finish is good.
I am a long time S&W wheel gun fan, I have never seen a S&W revolver that I didn't want to own and I have several.
I put a cheap UTG red dot scope on my Sport while I was waiting for my Nikon scope to arrive. Since I have a quad rail I moved the red dot to the side and that was many, many, many rounds ago. It works well and does not drift or mess up. If it ever dies I will think about a better grade of red dot, but with the low recoil of an AR platform you can get away with lower quality parts.
Optical magnification scopes, go with as good a scope as your budget will allow.
The Sport is a great value in my opinion.
My 2 cents.

You may want to just buy an M&P15 UPPER and couple it with a complete lower of your choosing. I bought a model SW812003 M&P15 UPPER RECV ASSEMBLY with no carry handle for about $550. I then added a "New Frontier" complete lower. It kept me under $700 and I could afford to buy other upgrades.

Another thing to consider about the forward assist is the temptation to use it to close the bolt on a round that simply does not want to chamber. I've a little experience with that (when bullets were flying)and it's normally better just eject the round.

And if you simply want to make sure the round is fully chambered, just push forward on the right lobe of your charging handle. That is a field expedient that we learned in the mud and it works wonderfully. Actually, after getting in the habit of just pressing forward on the lobe, you have to wonder why the FA was ever invented in the first place.

Personally, I own two S&W M&Ps and two Noveske ARs. One of my Noveske carbines is the Thunder Ranch Edition and that high-dollar ($2,300) gorgeous AR was made without the FA and that was as per the specs of Clint Smith. http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin...cat=152&page=1

I'm a retired gun writer and I believe that the Smith & Wesson M&P 15 carbines are the finest value in the AR world.

Good Luck and God Bless,

Steve

Another thing to consider about the forward assist, and a person buying an M&P Sport probably won't care about, is when hunting, the FA allows you to securely chamber a round silently. The sound of a bolt slamming closed tells every hog on the farm that you're ready to shoot.

OK, you DO have a semi-decent reason for the FA there Gatorade, but at the same time, is it a plausible reason? I mean, generally, the SOUND of a 12 gauge pumping or an AR being brought to battery can in themselves be a deterrent to attack. Besides, who would begin the sweep of a house where an intruder was thought to be lurking without first chambering a round?

My thoughts on the FA: Totally not necessary in a real world/non-combat situation. I own 4 AR's and I used to shoot them quite a bit competitively (high-power, rattle battles, etc...), and I don't think I've ever tapped the FA before.
Dust cover; unless you are marching armpit deep through rice patties or getting caught in dust-storms in the sandbox (desert), then in reality, the dust cover is just a gadget which can easily be sacrificed for a budget.

Smith VS. PSA? Both are quality weapons, so it's really up to you and your budget. On the DPMS, those aren't "junk" either, but since most of those are billet receivers I believe, I'd probably rule that one out UNLESS it can be had at one heck of a bargain which would allow you to buy lots of ammo/cool accessories along with it...

Peace through superior firepower!!!

Quality red dot at the cheapest price? Primary Arms, without a question.. I agree with this. They also just came out with a new one. For me I bought the Vortex Sparc for less then $160 on sale. After watching the review on youtube it sold me as being solid and reliable.

Plus it came with
•2x Magnifier
•Extra-high riser
•High riser
•Low riser
which are extra with the others.

I bought the M&P 15 MOE older carbine length and have never looked back but over $1k

I'm retired military, retired fed and been a smith for almost 30 yrs. I have had a class 1 or 3 FFL for over 25. I build 4 to 5 ARs each year, among other builds. I personally I would never recommend owning an AR without a FA. If you have reason to believe that water got into the barrel, you can break open the bolt slightly, point the muzzle down and the water should drain out. Than use the FA to return the round/bolt back into battery, without ejecting the round. It doesn't take a lot of water to cause a catastrophic failure. In a weapon equipped with an FA, you can verify if a round is chambered by slightly opening the bolt, verify, and than use the FA to put the weapon back into battery. You may not be in a situation where you want to cycle the bolt/ eject the round. Regarding the dust cover, Yes it keeps out dust. It also keeps out rain, mud and snow. Getting snow that might melt and refreeze inside the action should be avoided. For a civilian application, like yours, home def or range, the foregoing would not be important because they might never be encountered, so one could forego the FA and dust cover, but I would never recommend that to anyone. Just my opinion.

I like the Smith a lot, that being said, I have put thousands of rounds under the DPMS Oracle. All in the name of product testing. I had a few hours to put 1000 rounds under one in 104 deg. Tx heat. Not one FTF or FTE! I was impressed and it shot 1.5 MOA or less as well. It shot well enough a couple of buddies have bought them as hog chasing rifles,one guy has one in .308 as well. I don't think you can go wrong with either choice.

I actually got the barrel so hot it touched the rest and melted it! Says a lot about a rifle to get that hot and maintain accuracy and function.

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/...940/oracle.jpg

Hi Brian...did not read the complete thread so don't know if you have decided or not...but I purchased the M&P Sport 2 1/2 years ago with ZERO problems. It has never jambed or mis-fired on any (American-made) ammo run thru it. It was priced low enough to enable several easy, inexpensive upgrades regarding grip, sights, etc. Never wished for a forward assist...just let the charging handle fly....don't need a dustcover since I am not an "operator" and therefore won't be dragging the rifle across the ground or thru the muck.

I have not purchase an AR yet but I am thinking th sport will be my choice. As I become more proficient I may build one or change uppers. My purchase will most liky be November/December.

I just booked a celebratory Jamaica vacation for my wife and I as she has successfully completed chemo and radiation treatments for breast cancer. Dr gave 2 thumbs up. So after that is paid I'm buying myself a present as well but she is first.

Thank you all for insight. But for price and function and intended uses I think the Sport will be the best fit as a quality entry ar

Like you I was new to the AR system and was wanting to learn more. I found myself in a Walmart one day checking on the ammo situation and to my wife's chagrin found myself comparing a Windham Weaponry to a Bushmaster. Not knowing the history of the two companies but knowing the Bushmaster was big in the AR community I decided to do some research. I now own a Windham AR. I like the idea of employee loyalty.

Anyway I am willing to bet, because I felt exactly like you it would mostly be a safe queen, that you will fall in love with it. I know I did and now look forward to building my ultimate AR. Buy the best you can afford or expect to be building another. Either way it is a pure joy to shoot these fine weapon systems. And S&W don't make bad guns often and if they do they will stand by you until it is right. BTW I don't work for S&W but I own a lot of them. good luck and enjoy.

__________________
Jason Adams

FYI Vortex SPARC Red Dot Optic SPRC $199.00 with $40.00 dollars off and free shipping at Palmetto State Armory

Just purchased two Primary Arms Micro red dots. They're pretty nifty little units. Simple and effective.

I just recently purchased a sport myself and I am very pleased with it. I have build PSA stuff in the past, but this time I wanted a KISS rifle with a 1:9 twist barrel. Opted for the sport and was happy with the fit/finish and price.

I really never have a problem with this issue, for a couple of reasons:
1. I load and rack the rifle the minute I walk into the field, just as I would with a bolt rifle or a shotgun.
2. When I am hunting with an AR pattern rifle, I don't find myself in 'Tactical mode' where I need to do chamber checks every 12 minutes. In fact, I set the safety once, and I pretty much have a firm belief that the safety is right where I left it 12 minutes ago.
3. I am pretty confident in my rifles' ability to cycle ammunition and prepare itself for round 2. If I shot, I actually BELIEVE that my rifle is ready- I will set the safety, and just go about my day.

I hate to say this, per fear of the mods coming down on me.....
but AR wielding hunters tend to walk into the field with more DERP in their system than a Syrian freedom fighter. Hate to say it, but if they look in a mirror, they will see that it is true.

It's OK to believe that you will get Taliban-smoking action coming around the corner when in the field. I GET IT. But, the AR 'testicle mode' hunters should really understand that if they are that insecure about the action of their firearm- the hunter is by far the unprepared part of the system.......NOT the rifle.

PSA build.

Of course i built one on a PSA limited edition NOBO12 lower receiver and everyone at the range loves it because of what it is and who it reflects.

I dont think i would have built it any other way. So far ive had no problems with it since the build and i shoot it on a daily basis.

I have a Sport with the Vortex Strikefire red/green dot. The Strikefire and the iron sights co-witness perfectly. It's accuracy to 100 yds with this set up is incredible and even more incredible the closer the target. I want to get a scope for longer distance but so far I'm having too much fun the way it is. Buy the Sport, you won't be disappointed!

Hi guys. I just thought of adding to this thread about the M&P 15 Sport. I picked up mine [my first AR] end of July this year, had 500-rds thru it so far and had a couple of double feeds. I suspected the buffer assembly is too light and the spring might be too weak - considering a Spikes assembly in the future. I mounted a Nikon P-223 on a 1" high rings [get the 1/2" riser if you go this route to be able to keep the rear MBUS and to be able to see above and over the front A2 sight], I replaced the cheap plastic handguard with ADE Advanced carbine length quad rail - I just want to keep the A2 front sight to keep the old school look. Overall, this entry level AR is fun to shoot at the range. I don't plan on rolling in the desert so I don't really need the dust cover and FA wouldn't have helped me with the double feed anyway - found out that I over lubed it way too much that the oil was dripping into the mags making the cartridges too slick and decided to jump into the chamber two at a time. Cleaned out the lube, never over lubed it again and it was flawless ever since. I love the iron sights but my old-worn-out pair of eyes is not cooperating with the old age anymore, hence, the Nikon. I am going to build another one in the future when time comes and of course with the approval of the supreme commander - my wife, that is. My only child is handicap and somewhat limited with the use of his right hand [he learned how to use his left] but with the Nikon on, shooting with his left, his groupings were min of .5 - 1" @100 yards which is amazing, but then again he has better eye sight than his old man.

Send some down range and as always, be safe and have fun.

Shipyard Dog out!