This is my first time so hear goes nothing . I have been collecting AR's for about 1 year now & did a lot of reading & asking questions to try to catch up on knowledge so I didn't waste too much money . I have a Vtac 2 & TS & 15 X & Sport model's of S&W rifles . I also have Christensen Arms Recon 10 & JP Enterprise JP-15 & Wilson Combat Recon 15 & several others like LWRC & Adams Arms & Ruger & Sig so im not bias towards 1 single brand but Ive owned a tremendous amount of rifles now & I feel like the S&W rifles are so just as good as most any other AR's . I have ran thousands of rounds threw them & absolutely never have any problems but I have had a lot of problems out of most other brands . I just get tired of reading bad reviews on S&W AR's from people who don't seem to have ever owned one . I can't figure out why so many people wanna put them down & put them in the same category with DPMS & Windham & Bushmaster when they clearly make better rifles ? Any thoughts ?

I've herd nothing but good things. Especially about the sport. I think you answered your own question,they're unfamiliar or defending their own purchase. I own 3 m&p rifles, all have exceeded my expectations. Impressive rifle collection you got there.

I researched the Sport before I bought one about 5 months ago. I found mostly good reviews. The only criticism was that S&W substituted a 1/9 barrel recently for the original 1/8R barrel. But, my 1/9 is very very accurate. I look at the barrel change as a difference without a distinction.

I think some of the posters on some "black rifle" forums, and most of those I consider opinions, not reviews, are a little jealous that the low cost Sport is as good or better than their high dollar rifle. There seems to be a certain group also the swears by " milspec". However, milspec means a certain range of tolerance that allows interchangeability and which doesn't guarantee accuracy.

If you are going to be tactical, you have to have the latest and greatest AR made by boutique manufacturers that only turn out one gun a month because they have to be made during the dark of a new moon.

I own four AR's made by three manufacturers that have been individually set up for for special purposes. All have had the snot shot out of them without any issues. Any AR made such that it's parts are totally interchangeable with any other AR will work better and last longer than 99.5% of us will ever need.

What bad reviews? Even on other boards like ARF and M4C the Smith is consider a solid AR by most. Sure, some sneak through QC and have issues but not nearly as many reported as from other manufacturers. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places but even Grant who has been in the game for a long time and is a big Colt advocate once stated that the M&P MOE is one of his favorites (at least I thought I read that somewhere)

When you see it compared to Windham, Bushy, DPMS and others it's typically because that's the target market and target price point. Nothing wrong with that especially because when it's listed in that category, it's considered the logical choice. Also understand that most think "Sport" when they think M&P because it's one of the most popular AR's that Smith has in the market.

Probably because Ford owners talk down Chevy owners, Chevy owners talk down to Dodge owners, so forth and so on.

Bottom line is, who friggin cares??

The person on the receiving end of any AR isn't gonna know if the bullet came from a Colt or a Smith and really could care less.

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AKA: "Strange Tamer"

I hear a fair amount of talk about S&W's not being "mil spec". From what I understand most AR's on the market today aren't, in the clinical sense of the term. Frankly, for me, I really don't think it'll ever matter. But it does raise a question. If S&W's aren't "mil spec", then what parts AREN'T interchangeable with "mil spec" rifles or other AR's?

Somebody is always bashing something. There's a lot of AR snobs out there. If it works it works. These rifles are just a collection of parts. Most people don't shoot enough to wear out the lowest spec rifles, and if that did happen it's inexpensive and simple to rebuild one.

It's not that they aren't interchangable, it's that they are not built to the TDP. The specs outlined there are considered Military Specification. That said for example, a S&W M&P BCG works just fine with a Colt AR or any other that is built to spec. The difference is that it is built on a Semi Auto carrier. Semi Auto carriers are not "Mil spec". Full Auto carriers with more mass are the spec.

Is it a big deal? To the "mil spec or die!" crowd, yes. To the rest of us, nope. It's a solid build, backed up by a solid warranty and goes bang every time.

That's what I thought, thanks. I can't ever see me doing it, but if I ever decided to change my upper, or my barrel for example, I could swap them with different brands without an issue, right? Is there anything on my rifle I should not use another manufacturer's parts for?

Yes. My M&P upper is actually sitting on a Spike's Tactical lower right now as I wanted to see how a new trigger group felt with it.

This started out as a M&P OR. It's my Cocapoo's weapon of choice when defending our home during his shift. It's a bit different now because everything is interchangeable with standard AR parts. Enjoy your high quality, highly rated and highly enjoyed M&P.

I just bought an M&P 15 Sport. It's my first AR. I am very happy with it so far. I this S & W has done a great job with it.

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BillyJack2012,
Glad to see that you are protecting the identity of your guard dog.

I will grudgingly acknowledge that some the top-tier, top priced rifles assembled by low volume shops do have an advantage over the AR's most mere mortals can afford. Conversely, it takes one hell of a skilled marksman to eke out every little bit of advantage that the top-tier, top priced rifles has over an Average-Joe AR-15. It's like putting me behind the wheel of a track ready Ferrari. I can drive it, but not as good as the guy who spent years learning to properly drive on a track. IMO, the law of diminishing returns applies to AR-15's that are at the leading edge of innovation.

I honestly believe that if S&W did not cater to the entry level AR firearms enthusiast with the 15-Sport, S&W M&P 15's would garner a stellar reputation from anonymous internet forum range ninja's. It's the 15-Sport that makes a poor marksman with a fat wallet who believes $$$ overcomes practice & earned skill get defensive.

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-John

Never owned any AR until today and after (literally) hours and hours of research I bought the M&P 15 Sport. I really wanted to buy the Colt LE 6920 because I have been a Colt guy for years and who makes the military M4... but the M&P 15 Sport it is a total "no brainer" that seems way too good to be true. This AR is so much for so little and it is built in the US by S&W. I know it is a great AR and I can use the $400 I saved on lots of ammo for practice and a few toys.

And having procured millions of dollars in hardware for the military I'll add that MILSPEC is just that: Military Specification. It is not necessarily better (or the best). It is what some group of engineers in the DOD defined as minimum specification for a part. There are Milspecs for everything from bullets to toilet seats. When something isn't "MILSPEC" it doesn't mean it's inferior, it just means it's different from what the military buys.

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Dave

You said it perfectly. Many of the "mil spec" details are construction techniques, not even parts. The barrel for example is made in a fashion that a "grenade launcher" can be attached to it. Not real important for most applications.

BTW a Military M4 has a 14 1/2 barrel anyway

This guy is very smart: Before You Buy A M4 or AR-15 Know Your Facts - YouTube

But this guy is smart & practical: S&W M&P15 Sport review by Nutnfancy - YouTube

You all made a great purchase.

Terry

Very true JaPes! We'd probably all be better marksmen, and much more effective if the situation ever arose, if we all practiced more instead of buying another gun. But, I'm as guilty as the next.

Someone on this forum has the signature line: "beware the man who has only one gun."

Short answer, because the people who talk down are generally the same people that can't get past the price tag or the brand name.
For those folks, if the price doesn't start well beyond the $1000 price point,or the brand name doesn't start with a "C", it just isn't worth looking at.

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SFC, US Army, Retired

Where can I get one of them milspec toilet seats?

For $3500 I'm sure one can be found.

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SFC, US Army, Retired

Unless you're referring to the mil spec purists at M4C, most folks speak well of the M&P 15. That said, I'm curious as to why S&W necessarily makes a much better AR than the ones you mentioned. What is the criteria for saying that S&W clearly makes a better rifle than Windham?

I don't know who makes the best but I buy the best I can afford. I started with the M&P15(wife "bought" it for my birthday). I used that rifle for several year and had no problems with it, none.
With that experience in hand I purchased the 15-22 a couple of years later, again VERY happy.
When S&W brought out the M&P10 well, you guessed it, had to get one. Hell, I might end up getting the 300BLK that they offer. Untill I see a reason to spend more money for ARs I will keep buying the M&P offerings. It could have easily cost as much for one "high end" name brand rifle as I have in all three of my M&Ps.
$995 M&P10 MOE
$1100 M&P15 MOE
$500 15-22 MOE

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You basically have 3 levels. Below mil-spec, mil-spec and above mil-spec. Is your rifle junk because it is below mil-spec, possibly but not necessarily. I own a M&P15 MOE that is not built to military specifications, but it is a pretty good rifle. It is accurate enough, has a good trigger (albeit MIM), and is built as a mil-spec copy so everything can be interchanged with mil-spec parts if I choose. That being said, I also own a mid-length BCM that is a much better rifle. The trigger that came in my BCM was junk, so I had to change it out with an ALG, but that was cheap enough and the rifle is built a lot better than my M&P. If you buy above mil-spec (such as Noveske, POF etc) your rifle will be a better rifle than my BCM, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I need your rifle. It really comes down to what you are going to use the rifle for. If you are buying a rifle to put in a safe so you can show your friends that you have an "M4", buy the cheapest thing that looks good because you probably won't hardly ever shoot it. If you are a competitor, buy whatever the pros are running for whatever game you play. If you want a fighting rifle that you would stake your life on if you needed to, I advise you buy mil-spec. All that being said, I bought my M&P15 MOE for $865 new with my military discount and got a $100 mail-in rebate on top of that whereas the Colt LE6920 was $1098. If the price difference between the M&P and a Colt were closer, I would have went with the Colt (which is the whole reason I bought my BCM when I did, becuase it ended up only being $40 more than the Colt when I was ready to step up to a different rifle). When new people ask me what I recommend, I tell them to buy a Colt, buy a bunch of ammo, shoot the life out of it and what you learn while shooting will let you know what you need to do from there.

The answer to your question is ignorance, lack of research ability, and more money than brains.

The Nutnfancy review sold me on the Sport. His review turned out to be absolutely accurate. I concur with his results. The Sport is a great carbine.

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Death? Smile back...

You dog!
You can try to hide, but I know who you are.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

If I were going to buy a DI AR, I'd get the Smith.
If I were going to buy a gas piston AR, I'd get the Ruger.
Both are companies with quality products and stellar CS.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

If he's that smart, why does he incorrectly refer to "lock time" when he means "dwell time"? Lock time is the time between the trigger releasing the sear and the firing pin igniting the primer. Dwell time is the term generally used to refer to the length of time the breeching system stays full locked.

In addition, some of the military specifications are only applicable if you're dealing with a select fire (full auto) weapons system. They may be unnecessary, illegal or possibly both on a semi-auto only firearm. They can also be excessively expensive from a cost/benfit standpoint.

The difference between a trash AR and a good AR is quality control. QC costs. Besides the line inspections, there has to be a process that checks the incoming parts to verify that they meet specifications. All the specifications, all the time. Price point does matter though. The manufacturer has to be willing to produce a quality product.

If you spent $1600 or more on a rifle from a small company, that average people have never heard of, you don't want the value declining because a major, well know, American company is making rifles just as good for half the price (w/ lifetime warranty).
S&W is here today. They will be here tomorrow and they will be here when I'm gone and my son needs the rifle worked on.
That just makes you try to justify your exuberant purchase.

This is for the guy who cant seem to find the bad reviews . I never said they were professional reviews done by major Gun Magazine's . If you look you will find a lot of personal reviews & opinions about S&W AR's that are negative . I cant find a single bad review done by a professional writer . I like to read peoples opinions but it gets hard to filter through all of the **** . I would put my Vtac 2 up against any other AR out there & know for sure that its gonna be dependable & accurate & smooth . I just wish more people would give them a try & learn what true cost effective quality looks & feels like . Ive had the worst luck with buying defective guns so I understand first hand how poor the QC is from most gun manufacture's is . I read 1 guy who said S&W AR's were very poorly made & had horrible QC with terrible accuracy & reliability . These opinions cant be based off of facts . Im trying to stop reading so much so I wont get so Pissed Off when I read comments that seem to have zero facts backing them up . Also I had 2 Ruger 556 R rifles , 1 SB & 1 E model . Those are 2 of the worst rifles Ive ever owned or shot . The guy that recommended the Ruger 556 needs to try Adams Arms or LWRC or PWS . The Ruger is front heavy & 1/9 twist & bulky rails & they get extremely hot for a Piston gun . When I don't like something I list the facts on why . This is what I want to see from everyone with something negative to say .

I love em, got 4 M&P15, M&P15x, M&P15or, M&P15t....... No complaints here.

S & W Isn't going to put out garbage neither is Colt or Kimber. I am happy with my M&P

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I do not see an overly large number of bad reviews of the S&W M&P15. To me, the S&W is a very solid rifle.

Colt, of course, until recently was the sole maker of the real deal M4 sold to the military (Remington got a contract for M4s recently, so whoever thinks Bushmaster* is a slouch needs to "get a grip"), which means that Colt's rifles go through tests required under those stringent military contracts.

Since the rifles sold by Colt to the commercial market are made to the same specs as the government M4s, the commercial Colts are clearly very good indeed. And the Colt will hold its value against all of these "Johnny come lately" companies such as some of the ones the OP mentioned.

That said, S&W makes a very fine M4 type rifle.

*Bushmaster is owned by Remington and makes the Remington R4.

A lot of people talk this gun down because of the fact that the sport model doesn't have a forward assist or a dust cover. If you are shooting out in Nevada, Arizona or any other area with desert. Dust covers are nice. But for the most part you don't need one. Forward assists are good for hunting. These two features on the upper are nice to have, but not a deal breaker. All in all I think the gun is great. But I cant say I haven't put aftermarket parts on it. My M&P 15 sport has been a project gun. I might soon even be swapping the STRIPPED upper out for one with a forward assist and dust cover. In the end it just comes down to the fact that the AR 15 platform is incredibly versatile. It's all a matter of preference and if you truly want the "perfect gun" get one built for you or build your own. I have customized mine to fit me but I still love the gun. You can critique any gun worth the time.

The ejection port cover does very little against the fine gypsum sand in southern New Mexico. That stuff gets into everything. I can take it or leave it. For a military rifle, sure, give it to me... maybe it will at least slow down the rate that my action is covered with sand.

Many people say this, and I don't see it as a valid argument for a forward assist. If you ride the charging handle forward and need to insure the bolt is fully seated, nudge it forward with your thumb.

Many will comeback with something along the lines of "try that when the bolt is hot", which obviously, if your bolt is that hot, you don't need to charge the weapon silently, and if a round doesn't chamber, then you need to eject it.

Even when following the military's SPORTS, before you Tap the forward assist, you have already Pulled the charging handle to the rear, Observed that the chamber is clear, and have Released the charging handle. If the bolt doesn't go into battery at that point, you have an issue that will not be cleared with immediate action.


The main gripe against the S&W I have heard, like others, is that the M&P line is not built to TDP. Why anyone would expect a civilian firearm to be built by Colt's proprietary specifications for a military weapon is beyond me, but they do. No one yet has been able to explain to me how I would benefit from a 4150 barrel vs. a 4140 barrel that I currently have. Same with the BCG... What I have works and is reliable.

If you want to see "real" AR snobs and bashing, I'd encourage you to visit the ar forum specifically dedicated to these weapons.

If you suggest something is "good" other than what the long-time members there TELL you is good, you'll be ridiculed, receive no help, and be run-off the board.

To me, if you like something, and it serves your purposes (price, features, weight, etc)., and it works for you, then it's a good rifle. Do your homework, understand the pros and cons, treat the weapon with respect and care, and you'll be happy with whatever you have, be it a Daniel Defense, M&P or Bushmaster.

Here is my take on it. I can buy a WWII vintage Remington Rand 1911A1 that is milspec offered for sale for over $1,800. The Remington Rand will shake, rattle and roll. I can buy a Springfield Armory current production Range Officer for $850. The Range Officer is not milspec. The Range Officer is far more accurate, has a better trigger and has adjustable sights, etc. Now, just as a shooter, which is the better pistol?