I am getting ready to reload for some prairie dog hunting. The question is what kind of accuracy can I expect from the Sport at 100 yards. Just trying to get a handle as to what I can expect and not wip a dead horse if I get there and not know it. LOL

thanks

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

have you shot the gun yet?

Oh yeah. I actually have had it a couple of years but really never tried to wring out as much accuracy as I could. I am just starting to work up some loads but just wanted to know if 1moa is reasonably possible or should I be happy with 2 moa? I know all rifles are not created equal including the same make and model. Just trying to see what my goal should be within reason. I hope to do some prairie dog hunting this again summer and want to get out far enough with accuracy do do the job.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

With the right loads and shooter, 1 MOA is possible. Search for some old posts from oneyeopn in this forum... you will see what a Sport can do.

Add a good scope..Once you find the right load, you might be able to reach out to 200-250 yards easy too.

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THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

In prairie dog language oneyeopn is the name of the god of death that comes out of nowhere.

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-John

Yep. Prairie dogs fear oneyeopn like we humans fear Chuck Norris.

There are a lot of things that go into rifle accuracy. A good start is to do an internet search on marching your bullets to your rifling. Predominantly, they will related to .223 Remington and 5.56X45mm. The short answer is, the heavier the bullets go with the tighter barrel twist (1:7) and the lighter bullets with the looser twist (1:12). Most of them cover the full ranger of 1:7 to 1:12 but 1;7 to 1:9 is the most common in newer rifles.

It appears that most S&W AR15s seem to come with a 1:9 from what I have seen but check your barrel first. That and paying attention to the shooting fundamentals will go a long way for shooting prairie dogs. A trigger job and a free floating barrel will allow you to reach out any further. Depending on the type of shooter you are and how you have the rifle set up, you could hit accurately out to 600 yards but a lot of little things come into play when you get out that far.

Yep I heard all that. My Sport has a 1:9 twist. I will be shooting 55gr soft points. I have a bunch so that's what I have to shoot. Same with primers and powder. I will be using Accurate 2520. The question is how much power and OAL. I have two load books so I have somewhere to start. I will also be using once fired military brass(5.56) but will be loading to .223 specs since I have a bunch of .223 brass also. I have to check again but I think my max load is 27.8 grains. I will start by cutting that back by 10% considering the military brass has less volume in the case. I don't want compression loads. I plan to start at 24 grains and work up a little. Not sure where to start the bullet seating depth though. Also when working up the load in what increments do you suggest with the powder? I asked around,but want to make sure this is right, and was told I can raise the powder until I see an indentation around the primer indicating the primer is beginning to be pushed back into the firing pin hole. Also to look for the primer being flattened out a bit. I am not looking for hot loads necessarily but accurate ones that will carry enough energy to 3 or 4 hundred yards to do the job on the little critters. Most, if not all my shots last time were under 250 yards and that is still a long way out there for a Pa. boy that hunts ground hogs. LOL
Anyway I really do not know of what I speak that's why I'm asking and trying to find out. For this I thank you guys. I have no exp. with seriously working up loads.

thanks

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

Chuck Norris moves his hands so fast on film, you can hear the air moving over them.

When he contacts someone's face, it sounds like a bullwhip cracking.

No wonder we mere humans fear Chuck Norris. He duh man!!

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AKA: "Strange Tamer"

possible, but not probable. Non free float, 1:9 twist, no optics.....highly unlikely rather! I have to work at it to obtain 1 MOA with my 15T using match grade ammo, bench bag, and EOTech.

Funny my barrel is marked 1:8 twist.

Anyway what is reasonable to obtain with the sport?? Now I will be using a scope and working up loads. I am trying to fine where its time to quit.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

You don't know oneyeopn.

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-John

A very basic thing to remember is that any contact of the handguard or barrel with anything will vary the point of impact from shot to shot. Of course this is if you do not have a free floating handguard.

If your handguard is the standard factory version, it will be necessary to rest the weapon on the magazine for best accuracy. You should also be as consistent as possible even when doing this.

A stock AR15 type of rifle is simply not the best long range varmint killer even if it has a good scope!

Again, go search posts for oneyeopn. He even put up video of his shooting.

"Non free float, 1:9 twist, no optics"... nobody said he couldn't use optics, some Sports are 1:8 twist, and some have been made free float.

There is another guy who puts up pretty good groups with a Sport and a homebuild... JaPes has posted some impressive groups as well that were MOA if I am not mistaken.

I think this is the vid...

My Latest Sport Shooting.

1. Never say never.
2. Marksmanship fundamentals are essential.
3. Fancy doo dad's are nice, but not necessary.
4. I was having a good day.
5. I suck. I try to improve all the time.

I'm not a distance shooter. I'm trying to learn. That being said...


Home build. 1:9 CMV (no chrome). Polished combat trigger. 55 gr TulAmmo. 100yds. Open sights. Wobbly bench. Forend not free floated rested on a bag. Slow fire.



This is the rifle as it was configured at the time. This is why I absolutely love the A2 rear sight that has both elevation and windage adjustments. I just can't beat it. Every other iron sight is a compromise.



Everything just worked that day.

Some other slow fire, same session, not as spectacular as the first one.







This was fast pace fire.



I stopped keeping track of pictures. I'll see what I can pull off this summer. I got to remember to bring a camera.

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-John

Edited because I am now behind a real keyboard...

^Grover is my Yoda.

I really hope what I posted earlier isn't interpreted as bragging. When I was born, my mom and dad set aside shooting. Until last year, I had no idea they ever went target shooting. I was raised to stay away from firearms because they were dangerous. None of my family shoots. I was the first of my close friends to take up recreational shooting. I had to learn everything on my own. I watched videos and read books on shooting technique and pistol marksmanship. It was months of figuring it out on the range.

I decided to buy an AR-15. I bought a 15-Sport. I found this place. Oneyeopn, Madmax, Phil, Bill, and a few others gave me tips and encouragement. Again, I read books and watched videos. I did my best to apply what pistol marksmanship skills I have to shooting long guns. I went to the range, and did my best. I'm still learning.

I love modifying an AR-15 and trying out this, that, and the other. I believe that no matter what, it is in my best interest to know how to shoot a bone-stock, plain-jane, AR-15, with iron sights. I love shooting semi-auto pistols, but believe it is in my best interest to know how to shoot a revolver well.

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-John

I have an older sport, 1 in 8 5R. I am LH so I love the fact that it has no forward assist. I also see no need for the dust cover since I am retired LE and not a warfighter. I put a VTAC troy Alpha FF rail and a G-SSA trigger. I will soon mount a Leupold V-XR 1-4 red dot scope. Then I will shoot some groups and let you guys know. I think the FF rail and the SSA trigger will make a huge difference.

Funny story, a buddy has a Stag LH AR, we were looking at it at his house the other day, I mounted a rail and red dot for him. Every time he charged it (not loaded, no ammo involved - just inspection, checking it out, etc) he would reach around and flip up the dust cover. Same for an old SP1 he showed me. Every time - release bolt handle, reach around, flip dust cover back up. I chucked a little and had to hold my tongue.

This is why reading threads on forums makes me beat my head against the wall. The OP made a blanket statement regarding what he can expect from his Sport. He never said anything about using optics, or if he added a FF rail etc. So I was responding to his direct question, not hypotheticals and conjecture. As it sits, the M&P Sport has a 1:9 twist barrel (OP never specified which sport barrel he was running in his original thread), and is non free floated. This is a mid length AR that is not built for long range shooting or varmint hunting...which is to say that doesn't mean it can't reach out and perform. My contention is simply this: Just because one person with years of experience shooting can obtain a level of accuracy, does not necessarily translate into user X or Y obtaining the same results. I have been shooting long enough to know, that 1 MOA accuracy with a stripped down M&P Sport is the exception and not the rule in regards to accuracy.

The I'm trying to make is that the biggest determining factor to accuracy is the skill and ability of the marksman behind the trigger. Just because I can't do something doesn't mean that someone else can't.

A buddy of mine and I decided to buy Ruger P95's. Same platform, same range conditions, same ammo. For the life of me I couldn't get decent groups at 30ft. I couldn't manage anything better than a 4" group. To me it felt like I was patterning a shotgun. I look over and my friend is shooting bullseye groups with his. I blamed my gun. There had to be something wrong with mine. I'm a good shooter. I know what I'm doing. Me and my buddy switched P95's. I shot a 4" group. My buddy was shooting the same bullseye groups. Lord did I ever catch some friendly ribbing after the range session at lunch.

The only real way to judge one firearm's accuracy potential over another is to remove the human factor by firing it from a bench test rig.

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-John

I am the op. Didn't want to start something here just wanted to know for the average guy with the sport what would be conceded reasonable accuracy. I am trying to get an idea. Is this a 1moa 2moa 3moa rifle? My reasoning is I want a base from which to measure an approximation as to good results. If it is reasonable,with a scope and an 1:8 twist to get 1moa I will work toward that goal. If I get there then anything better would be gravy. If I can expect 2moa ok that is a goal also. If this is a 2moa rifle in the hands of an average shooter than trying to work loads to get to .5moa may be a waste of time. I see that some manufacturers state they guarantee 1 moa. I realize that that required possibly the exact ammo and conditions to get to that 1moa. That's fine I guess the question is what am I trying to achieve? What is my goal with this rifle?

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

My thoughts exactly...which is why S&W does not advertise the Sport as a 1 MOA rifle! If it was, you can believe they would be making such claims on their website.

You didn't start something bad. You sparked a friendly conversation.


Thumbs... I consider myself to be "average". I don't get out to shoot longer distances often because of my location. The 1:8 5R progressive gain twist barrel is capable of 1 MOA. Oneyopn has proven the 1:8 5R capable of 1MOA. Work up your loads until you get to 1 MOA. I think that's a realistic goal.

Too bad Oneyopn and Bill don't frequent the forum anymore. I think they're the guys you'd want to talk to.

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-John

Then good don't want to start a fight. LOL

Ok that is the down and dirty. Work toward 1moa and be happy. If better great. I loaded five different loads yesterday and they are ready to go later this week. The rifle seems to shoot pretty darn well but that was with some thrown together loads. I hope to dial this thing. Just want to know what is reasonable.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

^^^This......get yourself a good optic and a bi-pod or range bag with some 70+ grain match grade ammo and you will be tack driving all day!

Reading is fundamental... the OP stated that he "starting to work up some loads", which tells me he has more experience than just taking a gun out of the box and buying cheap ammo like the average shooter. Besides, optics have nothing to do with the capability of the firearm itself. If you put the Sport in a ransom rest where it could not move, use quality ammo, and apply steady trigger pressure, it would shoot MOA or dang near straight out of the box. The rifle is more accurate than most shooters.

May sound nit picky, but no, it is not a "mid length" anything. It is a carbine and when discussing AR-15s, the term "mid length" refers to the gas system. Please do not misuse terms, as folks can get confused.


I agree. Just because Grover can shoot lights out with his Sport, you or I may not be able to duplicate his skill, even when shooting his rifle. However, the question posed was if the rifle was capable, not the shooter... and the rifle is very well capable with the right loads.

Since you have been shooting "long enough to know that 1 MOA accuracy with a stripped down M&P Sport is the exception and not the rule", please explain to me how not having a dust cover and a forward assist affects accuracy? After all, that is the only portion of the Sport that is "stripped down".

Here is another link that shows how capable the Sport is. This one is being compared to a Colt LE6920. The guns are wearing a 3.5 - 10 power Leupold, but stock other than that.

Sport/Colt 6920 accuracy test data

I don't think the OP needs 70 grain projectiles to do the trick. 70 - 80 grain is the top end of the projectile weight range for a 1:8. If building a dedicated long range .223 then a 1:7 and heavier projectiles will better buck the wind.

The OP is a handloader / reloader. No need to buy match grade ammo. When you're hands on and consistent with each and every detail of the ammo you shoot, it becomes match grade. Work up a load suited for that particular barrel.

Here's a tip. Every barrel has it's own quirks and personality. My 1:8 5R barrel will behave a little different from the OP's. It's just the way it is.

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-John

That was an epic thread. Lots of useful insight there.

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-John

Just to add to what JaPes said above, Oneyeopn reported some of his best groups with bullet weights around 40 grains. Also, if you look at the link I posted comparing the Sport and the Colt, some of the Sports larger groupings were with the longer projectiles.

I chatted Matthew a while back. When ammo became scarce, his long term test kinda dropped off. Hopefully, since ammo is readily available again, folks will start going back to his facility and running those rifles. I still want to see the long term results.

I think we are getting a little off track with this thread. First of all you are correct, the Sport is a carbine length AR so I misspoke. Secondly, we are talking about hunting applications here which if we all read the OP, is what the intentions are. Shooting prone, using a ransom rest, hitting a paper target when you're heart rate is steady is a slightly different environment than varmint hunting.

In regards to the dust cover and forward assist being bare bones, I was actually referring to the lack of a FF hand rail. You can't possibly think that all things being equal, you will obtain better accuracy (or the same) with a non FF vs a FF?

And in response to your link, even the person performing the test comments about how more time is needed, "Two rounds of testing make it too soon to really make a judgement of consistency". And once again, the OP made no assertion in regards to optics, yet in the test you state that a Leupold was used but nothing else as if to diminish the capabilities of a good optic......so that really does nothing to enhance or validate your argument.

I have had great success at the outdoor range up to 200 yards using just my EOTech shooting 75 grain Hornady match grade ammo, using my 1:8 Tactical and agree that the law of diminishing returns applies when getting heavier. I think we are forgetting about an important topic in regards to twist rate and ballistics, is barrel length. A 24" 1:9 twist bull barrel will obviously stabilize a bullet and outperform a 16" with the same twist rate.

Thank you...

You are misspeaking again... Have you ever been prairie dog hunting? I'm guessing you haven't. Many shooters hunt prairie dog from a bench with a rest. All prairie dog hunters use a rest of some type. Many will prone out with a bipod or bag. Others will be seated with a bipod, or tripod for stability.

You said "stripped down". Most AR 15 rifles on the market are not free floated from the factory. Yes, you can increase accuracy by free floating the barrel. I would assume that any hand loader already knows that and, if working up loads for accuracy, have also tuned the gun for accuracy. They go hand in hand.

I'm not sure where you cherry picked this line out of the thread, possibly where Grover said he was not going to run 77 grain bullets. But at any rate, the rifles had 1200 rounds through them at the time the chart was posted. Later in the thread, they had 2400 rounds through them. It isn't an accuracy test either, it is a long term service test to see if a S&W can hold up to the same use as a Colt. The measurement of the groups is just one of his data points to judge wear. As the test goes on, the groups will begin to open up as the barrel is worn.

The OP has stated he is going to use optics. Prairie dog hunters use optics. Again, if you knew about the subject at hand and were not speaking out of turn, you would not assume that he is shooting an iron sighted rifle.

Please tell us more about this "great success" of shooting 75 grain at 200 yards with an EOTech. Why are you using match grade ammo with a red dot at 200 yards? What are you trying to accomplish?

Also, again you are misspeaking on barrel length and effect on accuracy...

The Truth About Barrel Length, Muzzle Velocity and Accuracy | The Truth About Guns

That is only one article, but there are many more. The thinking used to be that shorter barrels were less accurate, but now many are finding that is not the case. The shorter you go, the less velocity you may have if the powder is not being fully burnt, but accuracy does not diminish.

All, I feel the need to publicly apologize to thecatch8 for addressing him the way I did above.

thecatch8, While I still do believe that you are speaking from a position of inexperience regarding prairie dog hunting and the accuracy potential of the Sport, I should not have stated that you were "talking out of turn". That type of response is too common on other message boards and not the type of camaraderie we try to foster here on the S&W board. For that, I truly apologize.

Let me try to re-word this where you aren't offended as well.

What kind of shooting are you doing at 200 yards with match grade ammo and an EOTech? Typically, the EOTech is not a precision optic, but a quick target acquisition optic. You can make hits with one at 200 yards on a B29 silhouette, no doubt... But that doesn't require match grade ammo. I can do that with surplus ammo and an SKS. But since we were talking about accuracy and prairie dog shooting, I took your post to mean that you are doing more than just making a hit at that distance. I took it to mean that you are shooting MOA at that distance. Is that what you are saying you are doing?

I'm a big boy, I can handle it

A little video to watch while you're doing cardio on your elliptical....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MOtgFidWFE

Instead of just spending 10 seconds google searching "evidence" and second hand data and regurgitating it ad nauseam in here, I will actually provide some empirical data when I go to the 200 yard range next week and post up my results using to your chagrin, match grade ammo and my EOTech......cheers!

That's really not the way to do it.
Please buy some reloading manuals and stick to nothing over a max load.
Your best accuracy usually comes from something less than maximum.

I dunno... it seemed like I hurt your feelings from your PM. As far as easy PT, if I had wanted to be a bad mutha and PT hard, I would have joined the Marines, you know... the men's department of the Navy!

That was some decent shooting, but nothing that really wrung out accuracy, well, until the last shot... if he could only see three inches of that plate at 200 yards... ya, that was a good shot.

That is the type of shooting the EOTech is good for. Hits on large targets. It is great for getting quick hits too. But that is much different than MOA shooting. Even holding steady on a large target to get a decent grouping is different than picking a target that is a three inch circle and getting a hit at 200 yard (about the size of a prairie dog's head).

If you still doubt it, go get yourself a bowling pin or a prairie dog spinner target and stick it out at 200 yards. Try that with the EOTech.

And a little video for you too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgxfoxvq-m4

You have to be joking me? That guy was achieving a group no larger than his hand from 210 yards using an EOTech with no magnification using cheap FMJ's.....I give up, they just don't speak reality down there in Texas! EOTech only good for large targets and quick acquisition?

Unless I'm mistaken, none of those guys are using an AR15.......all bolt action. Again, your responses don't provide any data to support your position. And are we classifying prairie dogs as the only varmints, or are we including Coyotes as well? Perhaps you would be better suited posting your video in the old timers section on the AARP forum!

No that was not my intent. What I meant was I am using military brass which has a little smaller capacity. I have not found loads for 5.56 as of yet so I am loading to .223 specs. I want to load to .223 spec anyway. I am not going over, and in fact about 10% less than the .223 max load. What I meant was to start low and work up paying attention to signs of pressure. I figure it is possible to use max load for .223 in the 5.56 case and the possibility of over pressure is possible. So I won't really get to max load for the .223 but I will watch for pressure signs anyway using lower charges just as normal. I will be starting with min load and work up slowly never exceeding 10% under .223 max and still looking for pressure signs. And yes in most cases almost no matter what your shooing black powder, air guns and smokeless most of the time your most accurate is under max.

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thumbs
Souderton, Pa.

What was this thread about again? Oh ya, shooting prairie dogs with a Sport. Do you think you are going to hit a prairie dog at 200 yards using an EOTech with no magnification?

Yes, he got groups as big as his hand. Ok... But he is shooting at a target as big as a human torso. If you use the same hold on the target for every shot, and employ good technique, you will get groups. However, the difference is that the target he is shooting at is large enough that he can see it without magnification and that he can use the same hold... center mass. How big would his group be with a scope?

Again, put a 3 inch circle out there at 200 yards... It will be the rare shooter that could hit it with a EOTech equipped rifle.

The guys in the vid may have all been using bolt action, I didn't post it to show you a gun. I linked it so that you could see a typical prairie dog hunt. But since you are just being argumentative, here, watch this one... complete with AR. About the 12 minute mark, a 400 yard shot... Think you are going to do that with an EOTech?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLS64jQclrI

So, are y'all trying to say that 1MOA accuracy out of a stock Sport is reasonable?

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Freedom isn't free.

I don't even know anymore.....trying to reason with someone suffering from alzheimer's and borderline dementia is an act in futility. All this guy wants to talk about is unless your rifle can execute head shots on prairie dogs from 200 yards, it isn't worth buying....and is apparently the new spokes person for the anti-EOTech fanboy association!

More for your reading pleasure, straight from EOTech's website...

Notice, 300m with extreme accuracy within a tactical engagement area... in other words, man sized targets. But the advantage is CQB, requiring speed or fast target acquisition.

Again, they mention speed...

Again, #1 advantage is speed.

No one said you can't shoot an EOTech at a target at 200 yards, but depending on the target, it may not be the best tool for the job. Red dots are for close quarters and speed, scopes are for precision shooting at distance as a general rule.

I can use my boot as a hammer, but it is not the most effective.

No, that isn't it at all... are you really this dense, or just being argumentative.

I haven't said anything about any rifle not being worth buying, nor am I an EOTech hater... Just that the EOTech is not the right tool for shooting prairie dogs at 200 yards.

The OP asked if the Sport can shoot MOA and you said it can't. I said it can. JaPes says it can. Oneyeopn says it can.

Given the appropriate sighting system for the distance to target and depending on the skill of the marksman, yes.

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-John

Thank you. I was beginning to wonder if the answer would ever come. Talk about your rabbit holes.

By the way, JaPes, did you get my PM?

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Freedom isn't free.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Internet forums. I never know where a thread will go.

I did get your PM. Interesting info for sure.

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-John