I was curious if you guys think the older version of the 15T that came with the Troy rail and sights would be worth the extra price ($400)?
I do like the fact the older version has a chromed bore and a 1/9 twist. Opinions?

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Current 15T

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The Troy rail is better than the heavy UTG rail in the current set up, and the sights are better than the MBUS. Just depends what you are willing to pay and if you plan on making any modifications. I personally would like the 1:8 barrel with the new 15T.

Why is the Troy free float better than the current one?

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Because UTG is lesser quality across the board than Troy.....

OK, I understand that Leapers stuff is made in China and may not be the best, but saying it's lower quality means nothing to me.

What is lower quality? Quality control? Materials? Is the Troy stiffer? Does the UTG not fit as well? Is it heavier? Too thin? What is it that makes you say it's lower quality?


Edit:
I just checked and not all the UTG stuff is made in China. Much of it is made in the US.

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Freedom isn't free.

Not trying to be rude, but as long as it took you to respond to this thread, you could have done 5 minutes of research and come to your own conclusion.

UTG is made my Leapers, with most of their items being built in China, much of it for Airsoft applications.....so in other words, INFERIOR products in my opinion compared to Troy, Midwest Industries, YHM, Diamondhead, Seekins etc.

I must concede however, that the UTG on my 15T (albeit bulky and heavy) has served me well and is made to spec.

That's why I asked for some specifics. You see, I have done a lot of research on parts like this and, in fact, own a few. I also have a UTG free float forearm on one of my ARs and it seems to be very nice and it was made in the US as are most of their forearms.

I realize that UTG has a reputation for lower end products, but my personal experience, as well as what I've read about, seems to show that their products are at least acceptable. Therefore, I see no reason to spend another $400 on a product just to get something that doesn't really make any improvement. Maybe you have specific information or experience with the Troy forearm that could lend some light as to why it's better than the UTG.

This is why we come here, to discuss our experiences. I admit that I have limited experience with multiple vendors of things like free float forearms. That's why I asked what I did.

Just saying, "Brand X sucks" gives us nothing to go on but an opinion that a certain person doesn't like them. However, if a person responds with, "Widget Y is much better because it's lighter, but retains the necessary rigidity of a free float forearm" then that makes sense to me.


I have a UTG PRO Model4/AR Mid Length Super Slim Free Float Handguard. It's 9" long and not as large around as most forearms. It weighs about 10oz so, it's not very heavy. The rails are configurable so, you don't have to have a rail where you're not using it. This makes it more comfortable than the standard 4 rail models. I found the installation much easier than other forearms. Also, it is quite rigid.

I'd be surprised if the UTG on the 15T is any lower quality. This is why I asked why you thought the Troy was better. Maybe you have some experience with it and can extol it's features.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have a UTG PRO Super Slim rail on my AR, is every bit the quality of most rails costing 2 to 3 times the money. Very ridged, and a quality made in the USA piece. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a rifle with one of their better rails on it, this is not airsoft quality junk.

Would it be "worth" (subjective term) the extra price? I would not pay for UTG parts on a S&W AR anymore than I would pay for Taurus parts on a S&W revolver. IMO, it does not add "worth" just on brand name alone.

S&W advertised Troy parts on the old 15t but now just advertises "10" Patent Pending, Anti-Twist, Free-Floating Rail" with no mention of manufacturer though they do advertise MBUS. Why no mention of UTG? So what is this design that no one but the battle proven geniuses at UTG have come up with to patent? Or is this a S&W-spec item that UTG was contracted to make?

Rastoff asks excellent questions. The UTG Pro series is supposed to be made in America and with aircraft grade aluminum. I have never seen one so I can't speak to the design, fit or finish. Is in fact a Pro Series UTG handguard what's on the new 15t? In any case, UTG parts and plastic MBUS would not get me digging very deep in my wallet.

I believe it to be one of the UTG Pro Series handguards. Nothing factual, because S&W isn't saying... but based on comparing photos of the two rails, they look the same, and appear to bolt on the same.

I think if the Pro Series was branded under a different name other than UTG, they would be more accepted. It appears that they are making a very good product for the price point, but can't shake the UTG stigma. From what I have seen, they seem to be well machined, no issues with things fitting on the rails, anodizing is good, and they aren't too heavy. They are a couple ounces heavier than some of the competition, but they are also less expensive.

I'm with you on the branding. Kind of like Hyundai. They have some really nice stuff out there now but you're just not going to see a Hyundai in my driveway...

You just answered your own question. The first Gen 15T, S&W promoted their rifle with Troy parts because Troy is accepted in the industry for quality. With the latest iteration, they use the terms patent pending to dress up the fact that they are using a ******, heavy UTG rail......just as I specified in my previous post!

Actually the UTG Pro stuff is machined in the States, Michigan in fact.

Machining is done in Livonia with some pretty decent CNC machines.

Leapers, Inc. - Hunting/Shooting, Sporting Goods and Security Gear


That being said.... I would still go with the Troy :-)

Like I've said, I have a UTG Pro Super Slim 9" free float forearm on my AR and I like it very much.

So far, the only real complaint is that the UTG is heavy. How much does it weigh? What do the competitors weigh? I went to the Troy and Yankee Hill websites and couldn't find any specs for weight. If the same forearm from another competitor weighs only .2oz less, I wouldn't call that a $400 difference.

And, to add insult to injury, no one actually knows that the forearm on the 15T is made by UTG. Yet, many seem ready to bash it as such.

As far as I can tell, the UTG forearm as everything going for it. It's made in the USA (I guess if you live in some other country that's not a plus), it's rigid/strong and has a low cost (I saved about $100 over the next closest competitor). The only thing that I'm hearing that makes the UTG not as good is the name. Sorry, but the name means nothing when it comes to actual use.


So, for the OP, if the only difference is the forearm being made by Troy vs some unknown brand, I say save the $400 and spend it on optics.

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Freedom isn't free.

Now I'm curious...

Did your 15t come with the 10'' handgaurd that S&W is now advertising?

How is it labeled, UTG Pro, something else or not at all?

What patent pending anti-rotation device are they using that greatly differentiates, if at all, from others? Is it tight or does it rotate?

What does it weigh?

What is the finish like?

Right. I was asking in the other thread and I'm not sure we ever nailed it down exactly how it has been determined to be UTG. If Catch8 says it's marked UTG then that pretty well answers that.

For YHM handgaurd weight just click on the partular one you are interested in and a page will pop up with the Specifications including weight.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm My 15T's (bought 6-1-13) quad rail sez "Smith&Wesson" in white scrolling.........no UTG markings on it anywhere.

Also, S&W web page on the rifle sez "Patent Pending" 10" free float rail.

I imagine UTG has the patent on their rail........No?

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AKA: "Strange Tamer"

The Troy sights that came on the old 15T said Smith and Wesson too... it's rebranding parts purchased on contract. S&W didn't make that rail.

No large manufacturer these days makes everything in house. They all outsource lots of things. It's possible that Leapers makes the rail for S&W to their specs. Thus, S&W can put their name on it because it's made specifically for S&W. This is just like the fact that S&W M&P magazines are made by Mec Gar.

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So yesterday I was told by an M&P tech support rep that the rail is still made by Troy. But after a reply from someone about that in another forum, I decided to call S&W back today.

I just called S&W again, an you're right! It is a UTG rail. MAN, am I LIVID! I cannot get my deposit back from my LGS and cancel my order.

I tore the rep a new A-hole. S&W just lost a customer for life. My family has owned S&W firearms since S&W existed. He said he would speak with the IT department to have the info on their website updated to show that the rail is UTG and no longer Troy. I'm not going to hold my breath.

At least it still comes with the 1:8 5R barrel

I wouldn't worry about it too much yet. The UTG Pro line seems to be of decent quality and folks who actually have them seem to be happy.

UTG Pro is also made in America as opposed to plain jane UTG. Big difference between the two in how they are made as well. A lot of people don't know the difference.

Hold your horses there a minute. The others are correct. The UTG Pro line is made in the US and is very high quality. I have a UTG Pro Slimline forearm on my AR and wouldn't trade it for anything.

It's compact and light, yet amazingly sturdy. I say, give the rifle a chance. I'll bet you'll like it. Here's mine:

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Freedom isn't free.

I like the older one better, but the newer one is still the one I would buy today if I was buying a S&W. Is it worth it? Probably....... but not by much.

The UTG Pro Rails are decent and as others have stated are made in the USA but they are not a premium product by any stretch. When you look at the M&P15T it is supposed to be an "real" upgrade from the Sport II. Its a $1000 rifle. I mean honestly its 2016 not 2006, quad rails are dinosaurs by todays standards. Freefloating tubes with lighter more ergonomic keymods and M-loks are the "modern" upgrade IMHO.

With the UTG rail there is not an additional $450 to $500 in that rifle vs the sport. Low profile gas system UTG Pro free floating rail,1-8 twist and front Magpul BUIS does not equal $450 not that the Troy rail made it a $1000 rifle either.

You could get a Sport 2 and buy a Aero M-lok or Keymod 12" for $100. You could get 13" BCM KMR Alphas for $189. The front BUIS and low profile gas should not cost you more than $75. If you swapped the barrel it would cost you another $149 for a 1-7 twist 4150V Chrome Moly Steel nitride barrel. You could skip the barrel change at the BCM KMR Alpha, front BUIS and gas block and you would come out ahead but about $200 and have a better rifle.

That is the level of parts I would expect on a $1000 upgraded S&W rifle. I am not a Troy fan, not because they do not make good products but because they hire murders , but they are light years ahead of UTG Pro IMHO. They add value where the UTG product does not.

Guys sit here and banter back and forth these models. They spend thousands of words and countless hours debating saving $7. Yes, if you add up all the stuff you mentioned, it's only $7 less than the 15T. And that didn't include shipping or tax so, in reality the 15T is less.

Also, what most forget is that changing all this stuff isn't all that easy. Sure, for the mechanically inclined it's not hard. It does require a special tool or two. You'll need at least an upper clamp. You'll also need a barrel wrench. Then you'll need a torque wrench. None of those tools are expensive, but they aren't free either. Further, those tools are completely useless (not the torque wrench) once you've upgraded your rifle unless you're going to build more. Yes, you could do the work without the special tools, but you'll risk destroying the upper.

Of course they could go the gunsmith route and have them upgrade the rifle for you. Last I checked, they charge around $65-$85 per hour for the work.

In the end, it's worth every penny to just buy the 15T for most shooters. For the guy that really needs the difference between the Troy and UTG Pro (I'm not seeing it and I've used both. I actually prefer the UTG. Different strokes...) he's not looking for a S&W rifle in the first place.

So, yeah, the 15T is easily worth the $420 extra.

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Freedom isn't free.

I completely disagree. For most shooters there are better rifles on the market in the $1000 range. If you really bothered to read posts like mine you would see that the prices I quoted are delivered to you. If you leave the barrel the swap out to something better from a S&W Sport II is not that hard.

Honestly I could buy a complete upper and complete lower from PSA and it would be as good or better than the S&W 15T series with its outdated quad rail.

PSA 16" M4 5.56 NATO 1/7 Nitride 12" Precision M-Lok Freedom Upper - No BCG or CH - 7792905 $349 shipped.

PSA 16" M4 5.56 NATO 1/7 Nitride 12" Precision M-Lok Freedom Upper - No BCG or CH - 7792905

PSA AR-15 STR Complete Lower Receiver Black Blem - 7778699 $189.99 shipped + $20 transfer for a complete lower with a STR Magpul stock and Moe grip which IMHO is a huge upgrade from the 15T USGI stock and grip.

PSA AR-15 STR Complete Lower Receiver Black Blem - 7778699

PSA 5.56 Premium HPT/MPI Full Auto Bolt Carrier Group with Charging Handle $99 Shipped

PSA 5.56 Premium HPT/MPI Full Auto Bolt Carrier Group with Charging Handle

Magpul BUIS $75 + $7 shipping.

Total: $741 =/-

No tools needed all I need to do it place the upper on the lower. Hey I get it. You have a S&W 15T and you like it but it does not mean it is the best value for the money. The spec on the rifle above is as good or better than the 15T in every aspect. Full auto tested BCG, 1/7 twist, current 12" M-lok lightweight rail vs a 10" dinosaur quad rail, better stock and grip.

There is more than one way to skin a S&W 15T. LOL Again nothing wrong with the 15T. If you want a complete rifle from a company that has a decent rep for making AR15s that they stand behind then S&W is not a bad option but this rifle configuration leaves a lot to be desired. IMHO there is not a lot of "value" in the T series guns. I prefer the value in the Sport II. At that price point the compromises make more sense.

Also your math is wrong on upgrading the Sport II to a more T like configuration. I agree that it would require some tools and some knowledge but you will save more than $7 depending what you are paying for the 15T or the Sport II. If you leave the barrel you are still ahead. Even if you swap the barrel you are break even with a better configuration IMHO. I would not go that route, I would buythe PSA or similar rifle specd out above, but it can be done.

Sport II $549 + $20 shipping + Transfer $20 Whitakers Total $589
Aero M-lok or Keymod Rail $100 shipped
Front Magpul BUIS and low profile gas block $75 delivered.

That is a total of $764. OTD if you have to pay someone to drop the parts in add $50. Still cheaper than $1000.

Wow, you really hate that 15T. I don't have one, but I wouldn't bash someone for buying one.


In the end value is determined by only two people; the guy with the currency and the guy with the stuff. If someone pays for something then it was worth that price to them. Whether or not he could have got something similar for less is irrelevant.

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Freedom isn't free.

No hate for an inanimate object/tool I don't own. I am just expressing and opinion about it. As far as your "value" statement goes well we have a difference of opinion. People are fleeced everyday, not th say a person paying $1000 for a 15T is getting fleeced, and sales and transactions with ZERO value happen. Just because someone is stupidi enough to pay for something does not always set "value". YMMV