When using a rifle, I prefer the Eotech Reticle's holographic window, 65 MOA ring and 1 MOA Dot over the Aimpoint's single dot tube because I find it much, much, faster to acquire a sight picture.

I'm in the camp that believes an AR 15 carbine is preferable over a handgun or shotgun for home defense.

I have one mounted which has 2 tours in Iraq, and 1 tour thru A-stan...... and a hit while riding in a rig that was taken apart by an IED. Yes, we had to repair the battery terminal a little; but it works perfectly, and held the same zero after the blast. And the rifle was about 40 feet from the Humvee after the blast. I'd venture to say the Eotech is very, very durable.

Geeeez, you got money.

You have to love how everyone is quoting the guy who currently sells aimpoints.

Funny thing is that he stated he choose an eotech when he was spending our tax dollars and that his vision doesn't allow him to benifit from an aim point, meaning he wouls spend his money on an eotech. Seems as though the only time he would spend money on an aimpoint was yours when he sold it.

I think that is all I need to hear

That and I spent my money on an eotech😝

Alright...what in the world is a "wi point," and which poster exactly are you referring to?

Wi point must have been an auto correct error

I am referring to post 22 and his subsequent posts.

Truth be told I am sure both are good optics, just wanted to make a point that many times the guy trying to sell you on something praises it for reasons other than what is stated.

What do you mean by, "praises it for reasons other than what is stated"? From what I've read, what nyeti has said is just the truth. It seems to be what he observed.

I may or may not agree that one is tougher than the other, but you can't deny battery life.

Today I did some practicing with a friend for upcoming class. He has an Aimpoint Comp M3 and I have an EOTech 556.A65 HWS. At 7 yards all my hits could fit in a dime, his, not so much. At 15 yards I was faster and my group was on target and smaller. At 25 yards it was a draw. At 50 yards my groups were a little smaller. We were shooting timed controlled pairs at a torso sized target. Close in were head shots in a 3"x4" rectangle and further back was to the chest area.

I believe the difference was due to reticle. The EOTech reticle gives me a little more control. The 1MOA dot allows a tiny bit more precision at distance.

In the end though, I'm just splitting hairs here. We both have approximately the same experience with the AR style gun, but I have a little more training. Give both of use about 500 more rounds down range and our times and accuracy will be similar regardless of optic.

I really like my EOTech. Even so, I also like the Comp M3. My next purchase will be one of these:
Comp M3
Comp M4
PRO (I like this one, but I have shot the M3 a bunch. It's hard to not like what you have experience with.)
EXPS2-2

Notice that there are three Aimpoints in there, but only one EOTech.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

+1 Aimpoint. Size and battery life.

I think you are interpolating too much from those posts, really... I took from those posts he contracted EOTechs originally, and due to issues with those he's moved on to Aimpoint. Nothing wrong with an EOTech, if that's what the user wants.

Now I do run a T1, I choose it over the EOTech b/c the EOTech reticle fuzzes out on me due to a slight astigmatism. I also like the always on function of the Aimpoint, and the smaller size and weight. But that doesn't mean the EOTech is junk, or that someone won't prefer it for other reasons.

As for the "Torture Test videos", personally I think the are kind of gimmicky, but plenty of people seem to like them so I bet Larry will keep on doing them.

BTW, is Larry sponsored by both Daniel Defense and BCM? Seems like a conflict of interest there... Or did he leave one for the other?

I'll answer this and bow out, as its not why I am on this forum. Now that its personal and my integrity is being questioned.

Yep, I put E/O Techs into my agency, and shot them extensively in both training and used them in the field. I shot and trained far more than most cops. I started seeing major issues with battery life, ergonomics and holding zero. I switched to Aimpoint. We also had horrific issues with the E/O techs with our SWAT guys who were issued the sights. Every single SWAT callout I could remember somebody had an optics failure of either turning itself off or the batteries dying. Then they just started breaking. By the time they were switched out to Aimpoint PRO's when the PRO's came out, the failure rate was 80%. SO those taxpayer purchased E/O Tech's were essentially an aquarium for the iron sights. E/O tech also stopped any sort of warranty work. If you wanted them fixed, you had to pay for it. By the way, due to failures, irons had to be run in the up position with the E/O techs. So as far as that goes, while I do contract work training folks on Aimpoints and answering questions and demo'ing the sights, I don't actually "sell" Aimpoints.

One of the things I do when demonstrating sights is throw them across parking lots and concrete sidewalks. My Comp M4 (that was personally owned prior to working for Aimpoint) has been removed from a rifle, thrown across asphalt or parking lots and remounted with no failures or zero shift 1,000 times. It is also a high use demo gun with well over 25,000 rounds through it with the sight on the gun with zero optics failures. It was retired from its 1000th throw at SHOT show 2 years ago. It has had to have three replacement QRP2 mounts added due to extensive damage to the mounts. I have thrown this in front of the E/O Tech guys, and offered any of their guys I have been at demo's at if they want to join in the fun. They have never accepted (I also get along great with a lot of their reps and have known one of them for over 25 years, so it isn't a personal thing and they are good guys).

If you like E/O tech's, awesome for you. They look like TV sets, have neat reticles, and are visually appealing. Many think they are faster (I prefer to see times on drills rather than they "feel" faster) on all out drills. I can set up plenty of very applicable drills that may change folks mind on what "fast" is that is very specific to proper use of force in the United States. Keep in mind, I went through all of this myself. It's not like I just came up with this stuff from reading gun magazines and reading gun forums. I logistically supported an E/O Tech equipped team for a lot of years. I was the guy who had to get issues fixed, order batteries, and deal with all the various issues. I also have run the E/O tech through several high round count classes with guys like Bill Jeans and Ken Hackathorn. So, I have a bunch of time shooting the E/O tech, training with them, supporting them, and using them in the field. With that background, I made the personal decision to spend my own money to replace my E/O Techs with Aimpoints long before doing contract Pro Staff work for Aimpoint when I retired from Law Enforcement. I think it also says something that unlike "sales reps", Aimpoint actually uses a couple of guys who have very extensive field and training experience on these things. My partner has extensive time at a training academy for folks deploying overseas that issued thousands of E/O Techs and has seen every conceivable issue out there with them. Like me, he was shooting an Aimpoint on his own stuff long before doing some work for Aimpoint.

So, I'll leave it to the readership here to decide if maybe I have a clue about what I am talking about and if the previous information given is worthwhile. In the future, you can go back to listening to folks who likely have far less time on these systems to get your information.

Mushki,

Feel free to correct any technical information or disagree with observations posted. However, swipes attacking the integrity of Forum members won't work here.

I found nyeti's postings to be quite informative and generally were in agreement with what I have read and personally observed in my limited experience. His time and effort posting here is appreciated.

It's rare to read actual useful, real world info on an internet forum. Thanks NYETI for the taking the time to post your experiences.

Well guys, for what it's worth, a 2MOA T-1 will be the optic that finds a home on my new build. And for the record, I also currently own an Eotech 556.

I just can't seem to find anything unappealing about a sight that weights so little, functions so long and takes so much abuse. For a SHTF build, what more could you possibly ask for?

I forgot to also add some information about "selling" you stuff. Generally, sales reps from companies or rep groups "sell stuff" usually at the dealer and distributer level. It is why when people sometime talk to these folks they can have a bad experience as they are in the large quantity sales job and not working at a retail level with individual buyers.

Some companies employ Pro Staff, and some Rep groups have Technical Services people. These folks are usually contract employees and are often not actual employees. They are usually hired because they have a level of technical expertise with a type of product as established end users or technical expertise. They don't get these jobs because they are great sales people, and sales is not really what they do. They are more educators and subject matter experts who do training and help to explain how products work and the positives and negatives. Many of us are fairly agnostic as far as a particular love of the companies themselves and tend to be more shooter geeks. Most could go to work for their "competitors" as well. As an example, I have been shooting ACOGs longer than any other optic and it is still my favorite mid-range optic. I have been using them since they came out, and mine's serial number was in the 600 range as an indicator that I was a very early adopter. I have had Trijicon's "Sales reps" send people to my booth to explain how the reticules work when they didn't have their rep groups technical services guys available. I helped their customers and respected their rep because he was getting some questions above his knowledge level and rather than b.s. the end users he sent them to somebody who knew the product better than he did. Reps are sales guys, they move around in the industry, and are not always technical geeks about their products (especially with a big product line). Many have never used the product they are selling. That is why some companies retain folks who have actually used their products and understand the nuances from and end user point of view. Most of these people are, or have been, instructors and understand how to talk to people about how things work and how to use them.
I also do employee training for some dealers. This is so consumers can get good information from the other side of the counter at the gun shop. This is actually some of the most rewarding stuff I do because it multiplies quickly in helping to get solid information out to consumers. How many of the posters and readers of this thread would have preferred to have gotten some of this information from the guy behind the counter at the shop or from the person on the other end of the phone when you were buying a sight? It is what is very lost in this industry today.

I like 'em both

Aimpoint for
battery life
ease of use

Eotech
reticle
field of view

I like the on/off/intensity knob on the aimpoint much better than the up/down buttons on the eotech

I like them both, and either is a fine choice

I can shoot smaller groups with the eotech, but I don't think it's any faster on target, speed is about muscle memory and practice

top carbine is a 6.8mmSPC

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NRA Life
USPSA/IPSC

Great choice!

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Be Well

I put an EO 517 on my M&P 15 OR and used it for about a year.
It is a fine sight, however I never was real happy with the pixilated look of the outer 65 MOA ring.
The 1 MOA dot was great, clear and sharp, but I just didn't like that outer ring looking all pixilated.

The solution for me was to replace it with an Aimpoint PRO. I have shot it for about 15 months now and love it.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Been pleased with my T1, I had the matching 3x but found it blew apart the dot due to my astigmatism, so just run the T1. Works better when looking "past" the dot as mentioned a few posts above. Also works well "obscuring the dot", or what ever it's called - particularly for me as I'm Left Eye Dominant but shoot RH often, so I can focus left eye on the on target & see the dot, not even really looking at the T1 - and be pretty darn accurate. Minute of Bad Guy no problem .

I tried a "AR" style optic, a PA 1-6x actually. Fun to shoot on the bench, but reality is I'd never run it. Heavy as a pig, and small eye box. I've got a cheap Bushnell 3x9 I'll throw on it for range fun, otherwise the T1 stays on.

The Devils at LaRue emailed this to me the other day. T2

Aimpoint Micro T-2 2MOA/M4 QD Mount Combo | LaRue Tactical

Man, I know Aimpoint and LaRue make great products, but $761? If I were an LEO or active duty, then...no, I still don't see it.

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Freedom isn't free.

What's the difference between the T1/T2 vs the Patrol optic?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Check this out: Compare red dot sights - Aimpoint

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Eh... if you want top shelf you're going to pay a bit. The EOTech XPS with LaRue QD ain't much cheaper. What's the alternative? The mid-priced stuff from Vortex isn't worth it. Save money buying an older style EOTech or Aimpont Pro if that's what someone wants. Those buying an AR to save money ought to just toss the rifle out in the woods and forget about it.

I have no experience with Aimpoint, but I did have an XPS 2-0 for a while. My old eyes could not focus on the circle of dots, with or without eye glasses. It was really frustrating, so I sold it. I'm sure it would have been awesome if I could have seen it clearly.

Oh, I agree that if you want quality optics it will cost you.

So, convince me. Why should I buy the T2 when I can get a Primary Arms red dot for $600 less?

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Freedom isn't free.

Battle worthy reliable optic able to handle extreme abuse and conditions.

You just got night vision gear and need an optic suitable for it.

Optic that is on and ready 24/7 with battery life that meets that demand.

Less parralax. Better lens coatings.

While the initial outlay is greater, the T2 will hold value.

But the most important reason is that it's much more cool to post AR pics on the Net with a T2 than a dime store optic.

Have you preordered the T2 yet?

Like I said, I'm not headed into battle. Not convinced.

The PA is night vision compatible.

The PA has a 50,000 battery life just like the T2.

The PA is parallax free. Hmmm, I seem to remember a video about this. Now where did I see that...?

Yeah I guess, but I guarantee that it will be easier to sell the PA for half it's value and I'd be out less money.

Yeah, Aimpoint probably sells more optics because they can say the military uses them than for any other reason. Alas, I'm not one of those guys.

No, and I don't think I will. I admit that I really want a Comp M4, but can't justify the expense. However, based on yours and others comments about the PA, I am seriously considering this one: https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_...to_p/pacrs.htm

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Freedom isn't free.

I can no longer resist.

I prefer my ACOG.

AIMPOINT's were more costly long before they were adopted by the US military.

They aren't made in China.

They have always been top quality optics.

for Sunday afternoon tin-can plinking, the $80 red-dots are fine.

For serious work, the rugged aimpoint is the wise choice

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NRA Life
USPSA/IPSC

I have two PA MicroDot and was wondering what you were talking about. Heck, ive left mine on and come back to a dead battery more than once. But I see they have a "New" one.

You should buy it and do a review.

Nice. Which ACOG/reticle ya got?

I have been considering a Trijicon TR24.

Yeah, I think PA is responding to the market with some good upgrades on new models.

The one "feature" I don't like on the one I linked to previously is an automatic shutdown after 8 hours. So, I wrote an email to PA about it right after I made that post asking if that could be disabled. Not surprisingly, Todd from Primary Arms wrote me back. He said it couldn't be disabled, but suggested that an Aimpoint might suit me because they don't have the auto shutdown. I mentioned the price differential and he responded again with this: https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_...s_p/md-ads.htm

The above link should take you to the PA MD-ADS. It's a micro sized red dot like the T1 or T2, but has no auto shut down. It also has a 50,000 hour battery life. The best part is that it's only $169 (a few dollars more if you want a different mount).

I just may have to get one and test it out. While I'm sure it's no Aimpoint, I'm hoping it will do the job.

I wish I had found out about it earlier. I'm headed to a 4 day rifle class next weekend. That would be a good place to test it out.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have both, the T1 on an AR and the PA on a 15-22.

Everyone loves the PA around here, personally I'm not that thrilled with mine. Not fair to compare it to a Micro of course, but it's essentially a cheap chinacom red dot. If that's all you want/all you need, then it works great. In particular I don't like the mount, the adjustment knobs, the on/off knob, the dot, or the glass. Other than that, it's fine.

The mount was ****, I replaced it with an extra Aimpoint QD I had laying around. The adjustment knobs are too large imo, and require tools to adjust. The On/Off/Brightness knob nearly requires herculean strength to turn, and will start to screw the battery cover when turning off if you aren't careful. The "2 moa" dot is easily twice as large as an Aimpoint 2moa dot. Realistically, it works ok enough for my plinker AR Style 22, but I wouldn't want one on my AR-15. It's a cheap, low tolerance item from overseas - I knew that going in. As long as you keep that in mind, it's an ok item. Plenty of people use them on AR's though, along with the Bushnell TRS Red Dot. I'd suggest taking a look at it as well.

I wasn't aware of the battery life - that's good to know, I'll start leaving mine on like I do with the Aimpoint. Probably the thing I hate the most about the PA is the on/off/1-10x knob. As for the NV - I don't own any NV, but on the PA settings 1 and 2 are brighter than all but the highest Aimpoint levels, matching up around 8 or so really - so I don't think the PA would work very well with NV, if that matters...

EDiT- Also just noticed they have a new model - so the battery life/NV parts above can be ignored.

Also, don't want this to come off as PA Bashing - I've used their 1-6x, and while not for me, it was a great value for what you got. I've just not been thrilled with my PA Red Dot specifically.

78Staff,
Which model of PA do you have? Many of the older models have much shorter battery life and would do well to have an auto shut off. So, I don't suggest just leaving it on until you determine which you have.

Also, some models have specific NV settings and others don't. I suspect that yours is one that doesn't. I don't have any NV stuff either so, it's a moot point, but there it is.

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Freedom isn't free.

yeah I must have the previous version - bought earlier this year. Apparently they have a new model with better battery life and NV settings now. Updated my post...

On their site, I see 11 models of red dots. I guess it's easy to make many models when they're made in China.

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Freedom isn't free.

I had a PA red dot. It crapped out after one year and less than 5-6 hours of actual range use. I love them and have a PA scope that's been great, but once you have a product **** out on you it can make you hesitant to try more.

In true fashion, PA's customer service was top notch. They refunded my full purchase price, even after a year, which I applied to my Primary Arms. You have to look long and hard to find a better company to deal.

Comparison between my Aimpoint Pro and the PA red dot? There is none.

Oh, come on now. There's some comparison whether it's good or bad. Tell us what you like/don't like about the PRO. Stuff like, clarity, ease of use, durability and so forth are all useful.

How long have you had the PRO?
How often do you use it?
What type of shooting do you do the most?

I'm sure there's more, but you get the idea. What is it about the PRO that makes it $300 better?

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Freedom isn't free.

I agree. If the Aimpoint meets your criteria of a battle worthy optic then it is meaningless that some Chinese look-a-like only cost $150. Doesn't matter if they gave me one free if it meant I had to keep in mounted on my rifle. It's just doesn't fit the role that I expect my AR to be able to provide beyond range entertainment.

Hey Rastoff,

If you are serious about the PA but the auto shutoff isn't what you want, might check back with them. PA has their own section over on that other forum. There is supposed two new ones. Both are based on the Holosun I believe. One has auto shutoff and one not. Both rated for 50k hours. Reading between the lines, sounds like Holosun is the new PA. Anyway, might want to follow up. If you do, let us know.

I guess you missed post #83?

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Freedom isn't free.

When I bought the PA red dot it was because I wasn't ready to spend $300 as I had no idea if I'd even want a red dot or not at all. I saw that PA had great reviews regarding their customer service, but in all honesty, it was on sale for $100 bucks or so and I was willing to risk loosing the money if it went south.

I certainly did NOT expect it to go south after less than 10 hours of actual use. Now, my situation is rare as PA does make good products, but now that I know I want an AR that has a red dot mounted, I want something that is proven.

The PRO stays on target even after taking it off. It has a battery life second to none. Its glass is very clear. It is sturdy, I know I can drop it and it'll be fine, but MOST importantly, I trust it.

I've had my PRO since early summer and have used it about 10 hours this year and it's had 500-600 rounds worth of shooting. I can hit targets out to 200 yards and get great grouping with it. In short, it's exceeded what I wanted out of a red dot, but I now know that if I need to hit a head sized target at 200 yards that I can do so with confidence. Confidence is second only to trust in my book.

Trust is something that is very valuable in the gun world. Once its lost its very hard to regain, and for me, I'll pay for a product that I can trust today, but more importantly, one that I can trust tomorrow and many tomorrows from now.

If my PA scope ever craps out, which to be fair, it's been great so far, I'll step up some glass that I know I can trust to work.

Wow, you guys are still at it? Don't make me send all of you to the corner for a time out. I thought this was about Eotech vs Aimpoint, and now we're bashing PA, not nice. My 30mm PA is going to get a complex, and it's still working so well, even with my Aimpoint Comp M2 setting in the other room.

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SFC, US Army, Retired

It's Phil's fault!

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Freedom isn't free.

I read it. The reason I posted what I did is because what I'm reading on that other forum in the PA section, posted by PA, doesn't jive with what you posted. Might want to check with PA again if you are seriously thinking about it. That's all.

That darn Phil! We can cut him a little slack, he's got other duties to worry about.

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SFC, US Army, Retired

It's an older TA31 with the red chevron. The MSRP on all things Trijicon is sky high but if you search high and low you can find deals for sometimes under the $1K line. I still love that thing and the bendon aiming whatever really does work even with me being right handed and left eye domininant. I sold off my 20" AR that it was mounted to and keep meaning to replace that rifle now that they are cheap again.