So I've been shooting mainly cheap ammo in my Sport since January (brass reloads and steel cased stuff), just to be able to shoot it as much as possible. Now I'd like to try some higher quality rounds and see how my accuracy improves. What should I be looking for? Anything that says "match"? Does anyone have a recommendation for target/match ammo that I should try to get?

My last target is below, it is an 8" circle at 100 yards with Tula Steel cased .223. I'm hoping that with good ammo I can tighten up the group some.

Attached Images

Tula223.jpg (90.5 KB, 70 views)

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

stop shooting Tula ammo.....and with your 1:9 Sport, you could shoot quality Match 55 grainers all day. Mess around with different loads and see what happens.

I guess I should have said the reloads are Freedom Munitions, not my own. I can't invest in reloading equipment until I finish my dissertation (yeah I'm a little old to still be in school). So since I don't reload myself I am looking to purchase some better ammo and would love recommendations.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

Take a look at some of the Hornady offerings. Much more expensive than Tula, but a far higher grade ammo. That's one to consider.

Good Luck and good shooting.

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SFC, US Army, Retired

Maybe something like this?
Hornady® .223 Remington Ammunition : Cabela's
Or should it have "match" in the name?

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

Please don't take this the wrong way...

I would recommend that you bring the target in closer and focus on your fundamentals before worrying about spending more money on high dollar ammo.

Bring it in to 25 yards and work on sight alignment, sight picture, breathing, and trigger control... Even with cheap ammo, you should be able to reduce your group size. Put several 1" circles or squares up and use a six o'clock hold to get a consistent sight picture...shoot 5 rounds at each one so that you can really see what your groups look like. If at 25 yards you can keep the group at half an inch or smaller, move it out to 50 yards. Practice the fundamentals and those groups will shrink. Once you can consistently shoot 4 MOA or less, then you can start looking at different ammo.

Keep on shooting TulAmmo and commercial remanufactured. Some people forget that practice makes perfect and frequent regular fundamentals practice requires affordable ammo. Affordable ammo means a little less consistency round to round leading to variances in point of aim and point of impact.

What you get from match grade and premium ammo is ammo consistency. Cases, powders, charge weight, projectiles, primer seating, overall length...all the components are top notch and there is consistency round to round, box to box within the same production lot. Point of aim / point of impact is repeatable from round to round.

The only way to make more accurate ammo is to handload and work up your own rounds matched specifically to your own rifle.

When I buy off the shelf premium ammo, I usually buy Hornady V-Max, Z-Max, and Superperformance. Other than that, I will obsessively load my own match ammo.

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-John

Cypher is correct about making sure to have marksmanship fundamentals down pat before buying premium ammo. I suck at long distance shooting past 100 yards. At 100 yards, slow fire, concentrating on employing the fundamentals, I can get a 4 or 5 shot group a little bigger than a quarter using 55 gr TulAmmo.

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-John

Hornady has a steel case round if you want more consistency from the ammo, but less cost than the brass cased equivalent. Many on here like the brass cased Wolf as well.

That is very good shooting!

Thanks guys. I guess I'll just be spending more time at the range Thanks for listing the fundamentals as well. I've mostly been concentrating on my breathing, but I haven't ever really "learned" how to shoot.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

The NRA has a good book on basic rifle shooting. I order this book for my Scouts when we are working on their rifle merit badge. It covers the basic fundamentals well. Walks you through eye dominance, positions, and the five fundamentals. Looks like you can get a copy off of amazon cheaper than I get it through the NRA.

Basics of Rifle Shooting: NRA: 9780935998016: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SDClKzALL.@@AMEPARAM@@51SDClKzALL

I have to agree with the guys; you can see about 3-4MOA with a good optic with WPA/ Wolf or Tula.
I have found slightly more hard primers in Tula ammo, but a dead round is not the end of the world.

Just practice at 50yds, and get to know the ammo a bit better. And go from there. I have found Federal Fusion was pretty good 223 ammo for the rifle, and regular old Winchester XPII is very good ammo, as is Federal brown box and blue box ammo. All 3 are very affordable, accurate, and relatively inexpensive.

With good fundamentals, especially trigger control, you should be able to shoot consistent groups half that size with Tula ammo, say around four inches. I would say your problem is not your ammo, it is that no one has taught you the basics of accurate shooting. See if anyone in your area is offering a basic marksmanship or basic rifle course.

I apologize in advance if these were already answered.I haven't read any of your previous posts.

Rifle zeroed in as best as possible at 50yds?
Groupings any better at distances shorter than 100yds?
Iron sights or a scope of some kind?
Bipod...benchrest or standing?
Has anyone else shot your rifle to compare abilities?

I'm pretty new to shooting my AR-15.Spent most of my time with the safety aspects of shooting and familiarizing myself with the rifle.Shot 8" steel last summer at 100-250yds.I plan on getting a little more serious this year and shoot some paper just to see how much I can improve.

The other posters offer great advice.Hopefully I'll be able to remember it when I get out this year.

Black Hills makes some of the best ammunition available, including a 77gr NATO round that is used by our special forces troops. They sell both new and remanufactured ammo.

Tectrry, another thought, if you have never been taught to shoot... Go to an Appleseed shoot. They teach the basic fundamentals of positional shooting. A 2 day class will run you $60 and the cost of ammo... not a bad deal at all.

For more info, see Project Appleseed Home

Just my .02 but the American Eagle shoots very well outta mine and it's cheap too.


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To me it's all about what you are trying to do with it. Personally my rifles only see a bench when they get sighted in. After that I'm not interested in tiny groups at set distances. I like classes and run and gun....if you will. If I can't do that at the very least I stand or kneel. Some people are great at shooting of a bench but when it comes time to pick up that 7 lbs rifle they can't hold it steady for more than a few seconds

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62gr with my 1/7 twist and I have a habit of key holing some shots.

tectrry,
I analyzed your group. Discounting the two shots in the 7 ring, your group is about 4.5MOA. If you don't know what that means, you've got some reading to do. It's important to understand the meaning of Minute of Angle (MOA) and how it pertains to your groups.

This is trying to improve through better equipment. It will work to a point. This leads to a question, what sighting system do you have? Iron sights? Optic? Magnified scope? Red Dot? Knowing this will help us help you.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks Rastoff. I've read enough to know what MOA means, but I've never had a class - I just go the range every weekend and shoot. One day the guy next to me told me about breathing and so I've been trying to exhale about 75% of my breath and then hold while I start to slowly pull the trigger. As for sights, after the first day I realized that my old eyes couldn't see good enough for iron sights so I bought a cheap used 4.5-14x40 off a guy but the windage and elevation don't work, so I have figured out to aim two dots up and one dot to the right of center and on the sandbags I think that is about right. (I usually have my magnification close to full probably 10x or more at 100 yards. My weekly shooting is done from a table with my elbow on the table and my hand stabilizing the forearm. I ordered the book that cyphertext suggested and will learn the fundamentals better but I am totally open to any help. I understand now that just getting better ammo is not the answer and that I need to learn to shoot better. I will see if there are any rifle classes at my range (Rankin Field). They have lots of CCW classes on the pistol side but I've never seen a rifle class yet. I think there is an Appleseed in the hills above Fresno that I could probably get to in June.

Thanks again for taking the time with me.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

Thanks for the reply. Let's talk about some of the issues you're having:

The old school method of breathing was:

• Breathe in...
• Let a little out...
• Hold your breath...
• Squeeze the trigger for the shot.

We've learned a little over the years and don't teach that anymore.

Everyone has a pause between exhaling and inhaling. Because that pause is natural, it's the best time to take the shot. Let's look a the target:

There are really too many shots on this target to do a proper analysis, but notice the trend indicated by the arrow. This would be called stringing. It is most often caused by breathing.

So, breathe normal. When you hit that pause between out and in, hold.

While holding, build pressure on the trigger until the shot goes off. While building pressure, concentrate only on holding the cross hairs on the target.

No, what you bought was a complete waste of money. You simply have a tube with some glass in it. I know that sounds harsh, but a broken scope is next to useless. If, and this is a big if, the reticle is not moving as you shoot, it's still a best guess as to where the point of impact will be.


I see that you are in California. I live in Tehachapi. If you're anywhere near me, I would be more than happy to work with you personally. I am a certified NRA instructor and generally charge for classes, but my goal is to help shooters get better. If you can come to my range, or if we could meet somewhere, I'll be glad to help set your feet on the path to better shooting.

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Freedom isn't free.

Wow, this is a big help just to have someone analyze my shooting & breathing (and poor decision on a scope). Most days I'm the only one at the rifle range, and other than the one guy who talked to me about breathing, I've been limited to learning on my own. I think that I will look for a better optic, and when I get some vacation time in July, I can probably come down to your neck of the woods for a day of instruction. (I'm south of Fresno so it's about a 2 hour drive). I'll PM you when I have some potential dates.

After shooting pistols for a while, I figured I could just grab a M&P Sport and it wouldn't be hard to adapt to a rifle, but it is totally different. Thanks again.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

In the other thread you mentioned having shot 1,200rds. If you've shot 1,200rd with irons that you could not see well enough with and a broken scope, it's time to put the rifle in the safe and leave it there until you have new scope. Then go to the range and see how you do with the steel case ammo you've been using.

I see your point and I'm looking for a real scope now. It's was easy to pay a guy $40 for the used scope but it is a lot harder to know what is worth spending real money on. I need magnification and I can't spend more than the gun cost on a scope right now. So, I'm going back and reading old posts about scopes.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

The first thing is to come to terms with what you want from an optic.

Hunting in inclement weather and/or low light?
Battle proven durability?
Fast target acquisition?
Fair weather range toy bench shooting?
Fair weather range toy plinking?

Narrow down the use, and then you can better narrow the search.

This would probably describe me. For me it just fun, some people golf, I like to shoot. I got the bug about 18 months ago and started with pistols. Then I got the Sport in January and can't get enough of it. Going to the range every weekend is my reward for a busy week.

I've seen you talk about Primary Arms in other threads and have been looking at their site and Cabela's for the past hour or so and have found a couple of possibilities with at least 10x and in the $200-$300 range that I will keep investigating. When I am at the range, I want to hit the bullseye more and when i go to a friends farm I want to plink tin cans. If the SHTF, I might need it for other purposes but for now it is my hobby/sport.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

The Redfield Revolution Rifle Scope 3-9x 40mm would be my first pick for you. It's made in the US, will cost about $210 and they are getting good reviews.

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Freedom isn't free.

Any 3-9, 4x12, or 4x16 from Burris, Nikon, Redfield, Vortex, Leupold, and Weaver should do the trick. They start from $150-$450. It'll be more than adequate for any scenario. I had a Burris 3-9x40 on a 20" hvy barrel AR, at 100yds I was 1/2 moa all day, it also got me out to 600yd plate shooting. The scope was only $200 and an excellent one.

Some stuff to consider....

Shooting 100yds at paper does not require much magnification to just hold center on a target. Higher magnification like the 4-14x you were using will allow you to see bullet holes in the target but that isn't necessary to shoot well for what you're talking about. A 1-4x is one of the most popular magnifications for an AR. It will allow you to aim an AR accurately enough at 100yds and the lower end of the magnification will allow you to do that plinking offhand much easier, and it compliments the general purpose of a battle/self defense rifle.

I will definitely consider that. I love how much a guy can learn in one day on this forum, even when my original posting wasn't really the question that I should have been asking.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

Nothing wrong with that. You sound like me. None of my friends were firearms enthusiasts. None of my family. I learned on my own.


I started with a Glock 19. I got checked out on safety fundamentals. I read books and watched videos. I hit the range and figured it out on my own. I bought a Ruger 10/22 to learn about shooting a rifle. I read books and watched videos. Hit the range to figure it out. Then came the 15-Sport.

While rifle shooting is different, pistol marksmanship fundamentals did help the learning curve.


+1

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-John

Sorry didn't read every word of every reply (getting past my bedtime).

Every hear the phrase - aim small, miss small - you might try getting a target which is essentially a series of bullseyes and take one shot at each - forces you to focus each time and make adjustments along the way.

Just my opinion here based on what i have read - Match Grade ammo is not inherently any more accurate than other ammo - and price alone does not determine the quality of the ammo.

Match grade means simply that there is less variation between rounds - or to put it another way - tighter quality control during the manufacture process - with the goal being a more consistent performance from all the rounds in a batch. This CAN translate to more CONSISTENT performance of the ammo - but CANNOT improve your technique.

In other words - if you were to take your firearm and lock it into a bench rest and fire 50 rounds of match grade ammo then repeat with common ammo - you should expect less variation in the match grade ammo - and that may translate to more consistency when you are holding the gun, unless you technique is such that the variation from shot to shot in your technique is greater than than any deviation in the performance of each round.

Also there is a difference between accuracy and precision - see Accuracy and precision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sure what the real numbers are but lets just say that with standard ammo the variation in bullet weight and powder charge from round to round is +/- 5% with an occasional odd ball round that is 10% off the desired spec which match grade ammo might be +/- 1% with the odd ball at 2%. For plinking or target practice or proficiency the variation in standard ammo might not matter - and even if that 10% variance results in missing the point of aim by twice your average is that a terribly thing? compared that to a competition setting where every shot is scored having a single outlier that is 2% out of your normal level of proficiency might be acceptable but 5% or 10% outside of normal could mean you lose the match.

I have been reloading for nearly a year now - and so long as they go bang and there is a hole somewhere in the target (or in the vicinity of the target) that is a success - if they are ALL on the target that is better.

I should have taken a photo of it - my last range visit - first shot out of a 1911 with one my reloads was not only a bullseye - but drilled it to within about 1mm of dead center at about 15 yards. (local indoor range only goes to 20ish - gotta go about an hour away to get to between 25 and 100 yards).

Another problem you'll have to overcome is breaking some bad habbits you may have already developed over the coarse of self teaching. It's a minor obstacle to overcome so don't be discourage if things don't turn around as fast as you'd hope.

Teaching the kids. I mount a rifle with iron sights in a rest and move a blank piece of paper on a box out 25 yards. I zero the rifle myself to the center of the paper on the box,then go sit on the box with a dark cyrcle mounted on a stick with a hole in the center that I can mark a dot with. I start off target with the cyrcle & stick and have the kid move into the prone position only looking through the sights. They then talk me (cyrcle on the stick) to the center of the sights and I mark it on the box. I do that 4 or 5 times. Then talk them through what they have done. Amazing how fast they will pick up on lining up iron sights and will have tight groups in short order. Working on breathing and trigger pull can be practiced in the same way with out the rest and just marking the hole when I hear the trigger click. That will give them the fundamentals for live fire. Live fire on the range I let them use the front rest for the confidence builder.

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THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Excellent advice. Like cars, electronics and a lot of other things, high-end ammo follows the law of diminishing returns. As you get closer and closer to the high end of the cost scale, the incremental improvements in accuracy become smaller and smaller.

I don't know anything about your reloads; some are the equal of decent factory ammo, some are not. But IMO there's a definite step up in quality from Wolf and Tula to, for example, the commonly-seen and relatively inexpensive Federal American Eagle .223, PMC and, my favorite, Independence 5.56. You might be pleased with those, and they're only a buck or two more per box. But match ammo is a waste when developing basic skills. Better to go inexpensive, and shoot twice as much.

Too heavy for a Sport's barrel with its 1:9 twist. Smith reccommends a top weight of 68 gr for the Sport for the bullet to stabilize.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

For the OP.
http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR...fm3_22x9c1.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITp2OM7Qzqs