I am going to install an optic on my new sport to help my "old eyes". I will be shooting from 10 to 100 yards (HD and target). A Red Dot will work fine for the shorter ranges, but I am curious if a 1x4 Illuminated Reticle Scope would be even better by giving me a Red Dot at shorter ranges and a 4x scope for longer ranges. I would appreciate your opinions and guidance.

1x red dot is for fast target acquisition. Unlimited eye relief and no precise alignment with the optic is required, and can be used in tandem with iron sights, Once you get a magnified optic that's over.

If you just want to sit at a station and shoot at a bullseye get a magnified optic. Illumination isn't required and typically darkens the glass with cheap lens coatings unless you get a quality scope.


If you want a magnified optic that you can seriously count on for self defense that has a dot type reticle, look at the Trijicon TR24. Leupold has a cross hair and lit dot that they call FireDot which is a good one, and Vortex makes a good one too. There is lots of other low and mid-priced 1-4x junk like Millet and Primary Arms.

I have to disagree Phil. I actually OWN and USE the Primary Arms 2.5X red dot scope with the ACSS CQB-M reticle.

I cannot afford the expensive glass, but I HAVE used several and the PA compares well. Thanks to the reticle it IS a good optic for CQB even though it is magnified and the quality is FAR from junk.

I've never been in the military, much less combat, so how would I know if it is a good battle optic, both at a 2.5X and in close quarters? Two of my nephews have 16 years combat experience between them in Iraq and Afghanistan. Both shared your opinion of the scope when hearing it described. Both also changed their tune after getting their hands on mine.

Both have said they would gladly carry this PA into combat.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

In my experience, a red dot will work out to 100 yards, no problem. I you want to shoot tiny groups then go with a scope. I have red dot and scope sights. I have a Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 1.5-4 with SPC reticle and an illuminated green dot. This scope has a 1" tube. It works great well beyond 100 yards. Is it as good as an unmagnified red dot sight up close? Not quite. I also have a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 30mm tube scope with an SPC red dot reticle. It is better up close and all around than the Mark AR scope (costs about 50% more too).

WELCOME TO THE FORUM, BODARK. I HAVE COMPROMISED VISION ALSO. I HAVE USED AIMPOINT AND ULTRADOT RED DOT SIGHTS ON HANDGUNS, INDOORS IN BULLSEYE COMPETITION FOR YEARS. IMHO, THERE IS NO EQUAL OUT TO 100 YARDS OR SO--HANDGUN HUNTING RANGE. WHEN IT COMES TO RIFLE USE AT RANGES OUT TO 300 YARDS (THE LONGEST RANGE THAT I HAVE ACCESS TO) I WOULD GO WITH THE LEUPOLD VX-R VARIABLE WITH THE ILLUMINATED RED DOT RETICLE. I HAVE ONE ON MY BUSHMASTER VARMINTER, AND IT DOES THE JOB…...

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

The owner of Primary Arms would disagree with your nephews... He makes no bones about the quality of his products. They are great for range and recreational use, but he does not recommend his own product for duty use.

Primary Arms, LLC: Why Three Versions of Primary Arms Micro Dot?

"Keep in mind we do NOT endorse these products for combat or duty use. While Primary Arms strives to sell quality, well made products, they are not made to the same specifications as an Aimpoint or Eotech (thus the price difference)."

My 1x red dot is perfect for 200yds. That's the idea behind a 50yd zero with a 1x red dot.

At the Club, shoot off hand at steel plate the size of upper torso at 200yds. Bring the rifle up fast, bang. Better hear a ding. That's what an AR and a 1x red dot is all about IMO.

I share with you the "old eyes" and have gone to using red dot to assure target acqusition. For close quarters I use an Eotech EXPS3, for more distance (100 yards) I combine with a G33 magnifier. You can move the magnifier out of the way to use just the reticle. The key is this is the best set up for me. I have tried several other red dots (usually a lot cheaper) and they just didn't quite satisfy me. Using a 1.5 to 4 power scope took away my quick target acqusition. Like you I'm not ready to call it quits and found a solution for my "old eyes".

I was referring to the PA 1-4x $119. Hardly a combat optic.

That said, I agree with you that "junk" isn't appropriate description. They are what they are, not for duty optics. I have three, two PA MicroDot and a PA compact 4x. They have given me years of great service on my .22s, and lots of folks use them on ARs too.

Agreed. I have 2 PA Micros, 1 30MM, 1 Multi-Retical (sold) and the 1-4x (sold). For multi use, close quarters, fast acquisition and mid range shooting, the red dot is the way to go. The 1-4 is fine but has limited eye relief and is not good for fast target acquisition. Perfect for a bench rest though. That said, I sold it and only use irons and red dots for anything out to 100 yards. And my eyes suck these days.

If you were going to go with a magnified optic, I'd consider the Primary Arms 1-6. The 1-4 was way too long for what it was and also very heavy. Just didn't do it for me.

This!

Too many people buy and AR and then try to figure out philosophy of use for the rifle.

You should figure out what you want to use the rifle for before you buy it. There is nothing wrong with a scope on a AR, just realize that there is no perfect optic to rule them all.

My AR is for self defense. Min of head out to 200 yards (8 inch steel target) Min of man out to 300 yards IPSC steel target. I do this with a red-dot and those 200 and 300 yard shots are fully supported. Past 300 its a suppression rifle.

In reality I would probably never use it past 100yards (if that) for defense. I would rather retreat to and fight another day if the target was past 100 yards, especially if I can do so with out them knowing.

Any optic that has eye relief with be both slower and not as optimal at close ranges vs one that does not (scope vs red-dot).

I bought a UTG 1-4.5x28 illuminated reticle (mil dot) scope. I have not fully tested it yet, but so far I have learned a few things.

1. The scope is great at 50+ yards
2. The illumination is worthless in daylight
3. Acquisition is slower at short range

Basically, you guys were right in everything you stated. I will do some more shooting and then decide between the scope and the red dot. The deciding point probably will be the trade off between short range acquisition and longer range accuracy.

If you want a fantastic magnified optic for the money with red dot capabilities take a look at the Mueller speed dot, I have one and can not be happier with it as has clear glass, true 1× and works fantastic as a red dot at CQB ranges. The only downside is the weight as with the mount adds quite some weight to your rifle compare to the red dot.
Mueller Speed Shot 1-4x24 * Mueller Optics

Forgot to mention you will not find any other scope with the same quality for the the money.

Right.

But I think a lot of folks just want to have fun with a black rifle. They don't know what they want other than they want to have fun. They buy an optic and then adapt to the optic as best they can. There's the same guys at the Club who shoot their ARs hunched over a shooting table on bags using a 1x red dot to shoot as best they can little groups on paper. When I see that I see wrong gun, wrong optic. They seem to be having fun soooo..... ya know...

"There's the same guys at the Club who shoot their ARs hunched over a shooting table on bags using a 1x red dot to shoot as best they can little groups on paper. When I see that I see wrong gun, wrong optic."

I do this at my range with my red-dots when I first mount them and every once and a while to verify they are still dead on. I will try to get them as tight as I can at 50 yards from the bench.

Average use when doing drills is not that slow and steady, but knowing that they are dead on if I am really trying means if I put the dot on it and pull the trigger when doing drills it should be on.

How many of us are ever going to use any of our guns for serious defense purposes? The closest most of us will ever come is at 3 gun matches.

I'm glad that many of you can use the red dot out to 300 yards. My ability is not there. Yes, I can hit a man sized target at 200 yards with a red dot. However, it's much easier with a 3x scope.

Yes, eye relief is an issue with magnified optics. Even so, if you set the gun up properly, the difference in speed should be so small as to be insignificant. I'm just as fast with my scope set to 3x as I am with the red dot. I also readily admit that I'm not fast.

My preferred optic would be an ACOG TA33. Alas, they are pricey.

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Freedom isn't free.

Shooting offhand.... you bring up the rifle, hold 1x red dot center on that man sized target at 200yds, bang. All a magnified optic does is increase my target acquisition time, magnify my movement and slow things down. The idea is that man sized target is taking aim at me... need to get lead on target not agonize over which button on his shirt to aim at with a magnified optic. At least that's my view, but I live in the woods where fighting isn't likely to be over 200yds anyway. If I lived in the desert I might think much differently about my setup.

True, it's unlikely that any of my guns will be used in self defense, from my LCP to my Rem 700 .308. But each of them is designed to fill a role if required. Besides, it's a hobby too.

Right. The only time my AR is shot from the bench at paper is when zeroing. Otherwise, it's on a sling and banginng on steel or bouncing debris at the plinking range.

Another option would be to use a red dot magnifier which you can remove when you don't require it and still keep the red dot centered. Most scopes put quite some weight on a gun. I prefer to use a shotgun for HD and I have Aimpoints and Eotechs on them. But a TR24 would fit your requirements because if your eyes are "old" the red dot may look fuzzy but it'll still be accurate.

I'm thinking we are not talking "Combat" here;or a less than social visit to "The Sandbox"..... unless we face TEOTWAWKI... or just a mild case of "TS hitting TF".........your Sport will only be deployed against paper and steel... and maybe the odd coyote or other varmint........

If you think you need an optic..... you probably do....... some ones I like;

Bushnell's TRS25 reddot at less than $100 does a great job on my Beretta CX-4 9mm carbine. Being 9mm its a 1-75 yd fun gun that could serve in the role of a home/personal defense gun

I've got a couple versions of Aimpoint's redots..... including their PRO and a Comp-3 that are on AR-15s. These would be my first choice if the SHTF.



As to scopes.... I like 1-4/5x 20 scopes for utility and general purpose rifles:

I have a nice 1-3x20 Weaver on my "utility" rifle; a Ruger 77/357 carbine..... for a .357 it's a great scope out to 100 yds...... for things you want to shoot with a .357 magnum. I also have one on a Ruger "NRA" Mini-14.......not a tack driver it's also a nice low profile general purpose "black rifle" (It sports a Hogue 'Ghillie" green stock) w/ factory 10/20rd magazines. I've read that this Weaver scope is popular in 3 gun competition.....

I also have a couple of 1-4x20 Leupolds on my "Walk in Penn's woods" rifles ...... CZ FS(mannlichers) in .22 magnum and .223. These give me 1X for the heavy woods and rolling terrain of the Allegheny mountains that surround our cabin...... and 4X for longer (100-150yd) shots at varmints.

Finally I have a 1.5-5x20 Leupold on a older Bushmaster AR with a Ace fixed stock... this sees more range time (w/ 10rd P-mags) than other ARs.... and could serve as a "light sniper" rifle if I ever have to deal with TEOTWAWKI or just a Zombie invasion! LOL

Red dots are "faster" and more forgiving...... if when you grab your rifle the dot is turned on.......which is why I prefer aimpoints...... battery life; IIRC 30,000 hrs...... about 3.5-4 years......longer on the newest most expensive models.

A scope on 1x (my standard setting) is a bit slower but if split seconds matter you probably will be looking over the scope;point shooting...........if you've got some range and 1-2 seconds (in reality a second is a loooong time).......IMHO a scope isn't a real handicap...

Thanks for all the replies. I have decided to go with the 1-4 power scope. A red dot allows faster acquisition, but I need a little more help at longer ranges. I greatly appreciate your inputs.

If your eyes are anything like mine you'll regret a 1-4. Try to save up for a 1-6 or 1-8. You'll be much happier in the long run.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

I'd love a 1-6 or 1-8....... that exists and doesn't break the bank.......... tell us about them .......please

$239.95

http://swfa.com/Falcon-Menace-15-5x3...pe-P47586.aspx

$269.99

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_...p/paps1-6x.htm

$399.99

http://swfa.com/Leupold-175-6x32-VX-...pe-P12639.aspx

$599

http://www.trenieroutdoors.com/37466.html

And my personal favorite a 2.5-16

http://swfa.com/Bushnell-25-16x42-El...pe-P10927.aspx

In the 1-8 I don't know of any "cheap" ones.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Kodiakco.......hummmmm... most aren't true 1x (though what is).....guess I'll stick with my 1-4x20 Leupolds and my 1.5-5 x20 Leupold.

Had read awhile back about PA plans for a 1-6....... have you used one? Might be nice on a 15-22.

No personal experience with it.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

If there is such a thing as a true 1x variable magnified scope I haven't seen evidence of it. I'd like to though.

Here are examples of some high-end 1-4x scopes set on 1x plucked from the Net.

Trijicon TR24



Nightforce 1-4x NXS



Schmidt & Bender Short Dot LE

[

Phil; Thanks, some good pictures .....to me all three look like about 1.3-1.4 X

Have to dig out one of my 1-3 Weavers.....too me they seem more like 1.1-1.2...... set on 1X.... easy and fast to shoot with both eyes open.

Right. Any 1-4x will provide the ability to shoot with both eyes open.

The idea with a true 1x is to be able to cowitness with irons, like a 1x red dot. But I haven't seen one that will provide anything better than a fuzzy front sight. Not sure it's possible with a variable magnified scope.

How can 1X be called a magnified scope. When I went to school 1X anything was still one. Those pictures are very good and clearly show they are not 1x even using the new math. Don

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

No variable power scope can be a true 1x. There will always be some distortion in any optic.

Even at 1x, there will still be an eye relief issue with a variable power scope.

The reason for 1x is not to co-witness. It's to provide faster acquisition at close range. Most variable power scopes won't co-witness anyway because the necessary positioning for proper eye relief will put it over the rear sight. There are some long eye relief scout scopes, but not many.

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Freedom isn't free.

You could also mount a scope and off set a red dot for close targets.

Yes, I shoot left handed.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

And even some 1x red dots are not 1x.

I've got a Burris FF III on a Ruger pistol. When I got it, the image down field through the optic looked distorted to me compared to surrounding it. Found out it was 1.07x.

Kodiakco,

How are your optics mounted? From the photo, it looks like the RDS's riser is clamped to the scope's mount . . . or maybe behind it on the rail.

Thanks.

In thinking about all this, I went out and took a couple of pictures.

This is my Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 set to 1x:


I would like to note that the clarity is very good. The 1x is pretty close to 1x, but not perfect. There is some distortion even though it's not readily noticeable.

So, let's zoom in a little and look at what I found:


If you look closely at the near fence, you can see the distortion. In the center of the scope, the distortion is very little, but as you move toward the edge you can see it has an affect.

This affect is not due to magnification, but collimation. Collimated light is light that has the waves parallel to each other. Because the camera is in the center of the scope, any light that isn't coming directly through the center of the scope is seen at an angle. Because the scope has many lenses in it, each lens has a refraction effect on the light. The refraction effect will be the least at the center of the scope.

This effect is amplified by the proximity of the fence. In this picture, the fence is about 2 meters away. If it were further away, the distortion caused by this refraction affect will be much less noticeable.

So, yes, I completely agree that no 1x will be a true 1x, including fixed 1x red dot optics. However, a quality optic will be so close as to not matter. If a person were to wear a pair of glasses with one clear 1x lens and one lens with the same actual amount of magnification we see in this scope, they might get a head ache after a while. No one would do that and scopes aren't used that way. For all intensive purposes the 1x on a quality variable scope will be 1x and it can be used with two eyes for rapid target acquisition with no degradation in vision.

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Freedom isn't free.

After having eye surgery I wore a reading lens on one side and the distance on the other. Your brain makes up for it and I works fine. It would work to have the lens for your master eye set to focus on the front sight. Sry this wasn't what the OP posted about but reading Rastoff's post above I felt like adding it. BTW nice sight pictures. I envy where you live. Don

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USN Retired/VN VET
M&P X5

@LeeTN, the RDS is mounted on a riser and then to a separate QD offset mount. The offset mount sits behind the scope mount.

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Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

Thanks. If it weren't in CA it would be paradise. I envy your gun freedom.

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Freedom isn't free.

Aimpoint RDS sights and holosights like the EOTech are NOT 1x optics. They are 0x optics. A 1x optic affects the focal point of the light passing through it. Sights like the Aimpoint or the EOTech do not affect the focal point of the light passing through it any more than a plain pane of glass would.

It's been my experience that for "bad breath" distances involved in house defense shootings, a 1x scope needs to have good quality glass to eliminate distortion. Of the 1x variables I've been able to look through, the one I liked best for my aging eyes was the Leupold Mark 6 1-6x variable. It's also pricey (about $2k at the LGS).

You'll have to weigh the advantages of each type of optic against your needs and budget. I'm fortunate enough that I can still shoot iron sights and 0x RDS optics well enough to score hits out to 600 yards. But when it comes to the day I need a 1x so I can have a clear sight picture, that's what I'll get. I would have that Leupold now, if I could afford it

You'll have to explain this some more. A pane of glass does indeed affect the light going through it. It's called refraction and is a common phenomena.

Using a term like 0x means that no light is passing through. At least that's how I'd read it. But, I've never heard this term used before so, I'm curious to hear more about it. I anxiously await the details.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thanks. I couldn't quite make it out.

Refraction occurs when light passes through a medium like glass or water at an angle. There is very little refraction when the two surfaces of the glass pane is parallel to each other.

I didn't say a pane of glass does not affect the light, I said it does not affect the focal point. Not only can magnified optics change the image size, but it can change the focus. A rifle scope has an adjustment to focus the image into sharp clarity for the individual's eye- or blur to it out of focus. Because a magnified optic affects the focal point- the place where the image is sharp and clear- eye relief is introduced.

An ordinary pane of glass does not, nor does it need to be, properly focused. A pane of glass simply allows light to be passed through manipulating image size or focal point and a good quality pane does so with little to no distortion.

0x magnification does not mean light will not pass through it means there is no image magnification and no affect on focal point. An RDS is basically a non-magnifying, non-focal pane of glass with a dot of light reflected or refracted on it

I have a Vortex Strikefire red dot on my M&P. It is 1x, but has a 2X screw on magnifier which works quite well. I have shot the scope out to 200 yards after zeroing it at 50 yards. Using 55g bulets, there is no need to adjust point of aim. The Strikefire costs $169, is robust, and has a 4 moa dot which is easy to see. You can adjust illumination intensity, and change color from red to green. Definitely worth the price.
If I were going to Afghanistan I would get the Aimpoint for its extra battery life and other features and also since the guv'mint would be giving it to me for free. But I am not going to Afghanistan.

Um, OK, but simple math tells us that anything multiplied by 0 is 0. So, using the term 0x makes no sense. That's why we call it 1x because there is no magnification.

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Freedom isn't free.